Diablo® III

Random DH Question...

How do Demon Hunters with 30 disc w/o legacy nats set live?
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100 Tauren Druid
4600
Posts: 4,817
fair damage + great survival from hybrid gear

are you trying to face take with your gloom pool of 60 disc + nightstalker? it won't work without better LoH & you don't have the eHP pool to make better use of the dodge% the class comes with
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by having enough eHP to not need gloom anymore (except for occasional nasty affixes, which the 30disc pool + 1/s regen is enough). also there are other ways to refill your disc pool. multishot supression fire is one, and night stalker is another
Edited by Jd007#1506 on 10/6/2012 11:50 PM PDT
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I use nightstalker and multishot and gloom :D
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i have no idea how i survive..but i do..most of the time..
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10/06/2012 11:50 PMPosted by Jd007
by having enough eHP to not need gloom anymore (except for occasional nasty affixes, which the 30disc pool + 1/s regen is enough). also there are other ways to refill your disc pool. multishot supression fire is one, and night stalker is another


He's absolutely right. I've never used Gloom or been dependent on skills that depend on having a huge store of discipline since I always placed great emphasis on HP and survivability (it's just something I've always done in all the RPG/RPG-type games I've played over the years). I really only use discipline to vault around and that certainly doesn't eat up as much discipline as Gloom does.

I almost never die, whether it's Act III or IV. The Barbs in my party usually die before I do -- and the Nats-wearing/Gloom-using DH die well before the Barbs do.

Basically, you also need to combine having a lot of HP/AR and decent levels of armor with a good level of damage production (in my case, I'm at 140k dps w/o SS). Taken together, what you have is a balanced build -- do it right and you can faceroll Acts III and IV whenever you feel like it.

You also have to learn to move while playing -- so many DH I've seen like to just stand around on the fringes; that's like playing basketball just standing around the 3-point arc and dropping bombs from deep. Sure, you can get by doing that but learning to cut/move around opens the game up to so many more possibilities.

I think balanced is really the way to go; check out the Top 10 DH in PvP dummy from Diabloprogress -- a number of them have high eHP and DPS. It's certainly a far better way to go than glass canon (and really, anything below 40k HP is basically a glass canon build from what I've seen in the games). Also, glass canons are a pain to play with in multi-player; half the time, you're back-tracking to resurrect them and you're playing 2 or 3 against a difficulty level of 4. Of course, the upside is that it's practice for MP levels.

The thing is, in anticipation of MP levels, a lot of DH are starting to realize this and I see rings with moderately lower dex but high AR/Life selling for a lot more these days.

High discipline/discipline regen and skills like Gloom/Smokescreen are great but neither are mandatory, contrary to the received wisdom. Don't let the hosannas about the salutary qualities of high discipline blind you to other alternatives.
Edited by Eisenhorn#6230 on 10/7/2012 1:11 AM PDT
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no need with good gear.. chase the health globes. Battle Scars also is good for those close calls.
Edited by BelowZero#1346 on 10/7/2012 1:45 AM PDT
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You stack resist and armor??
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Ahh thanks!

I wondered what DHs do with the very nasty combo packs. (only time when I actually use up my disc, although I rarely run out)

are you trying to face take with your gloom pool of 60 disc + nightstalker? it won't work without better LoH & you don't have the eHP pool to make better use of the dodge% the class comes with


Not really, but I can... I rarely die actually. (I only really die due to carelessness. ei. not paying attention. lol)

What would be a good level of eHP?
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150k dps, 500 res, 3000+ life regen.

Caltrops / vault aren't really that disp heavy when used properly. Only big disp use is Shadow power and that's just for reflect damage. Or sometimes switch Shadow power for entangling shot, bounty hunter for reflect damage. In the event I need more, preparation for the refill is usually more than enough.
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You also have to learn to move while playing -- so many DH I've seen like to just stand around on the fringes; that's like playing basketball just standing around the 3-point arc and dropping bombs from deep. Sure, you can get by doing that but learning to cut/move around opens the game up to so many more possibilities.



This is so true. I play with quite a few DHs from this forum, and I think all of them can attest to my ability to avoid dying in the game. My gear isn't great, and my only output of damage is really from my ability to spam alot of cluster bombs. What helps greatly though is the ability to move. I've seen so many 200K+ DPS DHs try to stand in one spot with their dual-socket manticores and kill everything. It works fine when the enemy stands right in front of you, but is useless against teleporters, worms, and of course enemies that shoot back. We all know that hit detection is crappy in this game, but if you're fast enough, you can avoid alot of hits.

Almost forgot I have the default amount of discipline and no skills that generate it any faster.
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I've seen so many 200K+ DPS DHs try to stand in one spot with their dual-socket manticores and kill everything. It works fine when the enemy stands right in front of you, but is useless against teleporters, worms, and of course enemies that shoot back.


If the 200k+ DPS DH can actually take the hits while standing still, why not stand still and DPS away? Moving/kiting, no matter how good your stutter step micro is, will result in you losing DPS. If you don't die even standing still, you should just stand still and keep attacking, in this case it's not about skill it's just about what's efficient. Of course there is the steady aim passive, so that's a reason to move away, but often times I find I'm just too lazy to move because the mobs die in a couple seconds anyway, with or without steady aim being on.
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100 Tauren Druid
4600
Posts: 4,817

What would be a good level of eHP?

tank,hyrbid or glass... it really varies

I play hybrid so; 400k eHP with 90k dps is what i'd consider good, this will soak 2 huge hits from the hard hitting champions, but even then a fallen maniac can 1 shot you

minimum 05 a3 farming I recommend 190k eHP for QoL if you are glass but with over 100k paper dps

some websites (cough diabloprogress) factor dodge% in eHP values... this is a false proxy of survival, you never include avoidance in eHP ...and dodge% doesn't even function on ground FX like molten or reflection, it's inclusion makes little sense

if you see eHP in diablo progress multiply it by (1 - their_dodge%)
Edited by zoid#1554 on 10/7/2012 11:37 AM PDT
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Moving/kiting, no matter how good your stutter step micro is, will result in you losing DPS...


Not true. Well, maybe if you have like 2.7+ APS or something...but that's pretty hard to get now. In fact, depending on what you're spamming, your dps can go up a little...this game has issues LOL
Edited by MasterShake#1516 on 10/7/2012 11:38 AM PDT
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Not true. Well, maybe if you have like 2.7+ APS or something...but that's pretty hard to get now. In fact, depending on what you're spamming, your dps can go up a little...this game has issues LOL


I doubt that when you have to move your character out of the way of a fireball or molten pool you can guarantee to stutter step absolutely perfectly every single time. Therefore you always lose DPS when moving/kiting. Having good micro will minimize the loss, but there is no way you can keep up the absolute perfect stutter step micro while dodging stuff (unless maybe you have no attack speed at all and shoot at 1.1/s with a crossbow, even then you probably can't guarantee perfect stutter step)

There is on exception that I forgot to mention, and that is evasive fire with the backflip. When you backflip into a wall, it resets your weapon animation and you can shoot again very fast. This increases your attack speed, but it is at the cost of discipline (if you do it repeatedly you will run out eventually even with legacy nat), and it is just one skill.
Edited by Jd007#1506 on 10/7/2012 11:45 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
4600
Posts: 4,817

When you backflip into a wall, it resets your weapon animation and you can shoot again very fast.
interesting
from a very rough test it looks like ~25% increase

1.34 aps went from about 13 shots in 10 seconds to 16

so surge approximately becomes 173% weapon in effect, while producing 4 hatred 25% faster than you normally do....eh still doesn't seem worth it.
but it is interesting
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10/07/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Jd007
I've seen so many 200K+ DPS DHs try to stand in one spot with their dual-socket manticores and kill everything. It works fine when the enemy stands right in front of you, but is useless against teleporters, worms, and of course enemies that shoot back.


If the 200k+ DPS DH can actually take the hits while standing still, why not stand still and DPS away? Moving/kiting, no matter how good your stutter step micro is, will result in you losing DPS. If you don't die even standing still, you should just stand still and keep attacking, in this case it's not about skill it's just about what's efficient. Of course there is the steady aim passive, so that's a reason to move away, but often times I find I'm just too lazy to move because the mobs die in a couple seconds anyway, with or without steady aim being on.


While I think it would be fun in some ways to have super high DPS, just standing still and wasting everything in front of you seems like it could be boring. Shouldn't foot work and actually being twitchy be part of the experience of a DH? It feels like I am actually playing a game when I am kiting/stuttering and using more than 1 or 2 skills to stay alive and kill the enemy.
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I couldn't survive without gloom since RD mobs would destroy me. Even than with RD mobs and gloom I can still die.

I'm buying a LN set, but I was 160k DPS 35k/300 survival. Using Cluster Bombs made it it difficult since the DMG output was so high I could easily one shot myself with gloom.

Surviving is easy, I really only smoke screen to avoid traps or move somewhere safe or to ditch aggro. However, I find that with super high DPS, you can easily tank with gloom. I could sit in a pack of mobs with my non tank build and just do so much DMG the Life Steal wouldn't let me die.

As a DH, just move away from ranged attacks and smoke screen with mobs surround you. Simple survival.
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if you see eHP in diablo progress multiply it by (1 - their_dodge%)


Unless they have nats permagloom, in which case their eHP is roughly accurate for 1.04-05.
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