Diablo® III

Throw + Rend + Traditional WW



Do your most efficient path, i assume most people use the alkaizer route but as long as its consistent and fairly efficient its up to you.


Do you want me to upload the screenshots? My average on mp 7 is 35.9m exp/hour. That was based on doing Tower of the damned level 1, Tower of the cursed level 1, Core of Arreat, Keep depths level 2, Fields of slaughter. After I did the first run I realized I left out Arreat crater level 2 which is a great place for exp so I left it out on the next 3 runs. I killed all the elites as well as more than 95% of the trash. I also picked up high level rares. I use photo bucket and it resizes large photos so the exp and time stamp may not be readable. Any suggestions on what I can use?

I trust your data collection standards. However, 35.9m exp/hour is fairly low. Are you sure you would not be better off in mp 3-5?

When I was still playing i averaged nearly 1 million exp per min (60m per hour) and i imagine it would be even higher now with new gear. Sadly skorn run time is bottled necked by horrible base ASP regardless of how good your gear is. its simply not possible to get enough asp to maintain fury/wotb.
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Last bump for the night. Another successful evening enjoying the hell out of this build. The rend crits are a lot of fun to watch :D
Edited by acrimony#1561 on 10/30/2012 12:07 AM PDT
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I trust your data collection standards. However, 35.9m exp/hour is fairly low. Are you sure you would not be better off in mp 3-5?

When I was still playing i averaged nearly 1 million exp per min (60m per hour) and i imagine it would be even higher now with new gear. Sadly skorn run time is bottled necked by horrible base ASP regardless of how good your gear is. its simply not possible to get enough asp to maintain fury/wotb.


I tried mp 5. I one shot killed a lot of trash with my weapon throw. Most mobs died with less than two passes of WW....meaning, they had less than half health on pass number two. Elites on average took less than 10 seconds to kill. The only time I was able to generate fury was mainly on elite packs but they died too quickly to reset the timer. WOTB was not possible for me to keep up on mp 5 due to monsters dying too fast.

On mp 6 fury was easier to maintain but I still had periods where I lost WOTB . Monsters would just die too quickly for me to gain fury.

Mp 7 elites took long enough to kill and trash took a minimum 4 passes with WW to kill so I was able to keep WOTB 100% of the run. The few times I lost WOTB, the cool down cycle was well past the 2 minute mark. I was never able to farm more than 40m exp/ hour in 1.0.4 when I was DW so I am happy with 36m/hour. I am sure a lot of people would be. I am not saying that 2H WW is better just that it is viable.

My intent with the high damage skorn was to make sure I could kill ubers on high mp levels solo. It wasn't with efficient farming in mind. Though I am not opposed to to keeping my out for a couple of fast, high dps one 1H weapons. Sadly, I suspect it will cost closer to a billion gold or more to get those and keep high paper dps.

Is keeping WOTB up the major issue you have with my build? You keep saying that keeping it up simply is not possible with the slow aps of a skorn. I can assure you, I have no reason to BS about keeping WOTB up. Even on mp 7 it was not entirely possible without the use of weapon throw. If there are two or 3 targets in range and the WOTB timer is getting low, using weapon throw to kill them with the chance to gain 14 fury and 15 fury from crits allows the resetting of the timer quickly while the -5 fury cost keeps me from using all my fury in the process.

Anyway, as soon as I get a billion gold i will invest in an echoing fury and then search for a good OH so that I can be like everyone else.
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Never really tried weapon throw as a fury generator/dump until today and I love it...however I am running into some problems figuring out how I can work it into my spec without too much sacrifice. So I could use some help.

I have tried just replacing the passive bloodthirst with no escape and although that works perfectly I seem to loose too much LS at my dps level to maintain survivability at MP4 and 5.

Leaving bloodthirst as a passive and just replacing bash/punish with weapon throw works "ok". I can still spam weapon throw while WOTB is up but it turns into a fury sink with WOTB up.

I tried dropping bloodthirst for no escape and ran rend/blood lust to make up for the loss of 3% LS and again it works ok but not perfect.

Is there any gear combination or obvious spec choices I am missing here that would work out better?

Thanks in advance.
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There are only 2 variables for farm speed once you distill it down. damage and movespeed.
We can also make the assumption that lower mp = more exp and loot/min. In order to maximize farm you want the most damage possible while still maintaining perma wotb and doing the lowest possible mp allowable. I am at 270k dps fully buffed paper dps in mp3 and i can maintain about 90% wrath uptime but its certainly tricky at this dps threshhold.

While skorn gives you a lot of paper dps- it also essentially forces you to go to a high mp in order to maintain sprint, much less wotb. Obviously the build is still viable its just far from efficient. The same can be said with mace/axe users with low IAS. Also, you dont need perma wotb, but its a large contributing factor to efficiency.

I don't think the weapons youre looking for is that expensive, a socketed warlords + a low dps EF+ socket or LS would only cost 250-350m combined and it will be vastly more exp than any skorn due to being able to maintain perma wotb(which gives 10 cc for fury gen and paper dps).
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Ok I tried this build last night and like it alot. I was having some trouble starting out a attack due to lack of fury. Anyone have any suggestions for this?
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The build looks very interesting, and I'm going to try it soon. However, the following statements don't make sense to me.

"In terms of fury generation, there is nothing better. It's great because once battle rage is up, there's no downtime on fury generation/building. Each critical hit adds 29 fury with the No Escape passive active. Compared to Bash's Instigation -- which is 12 per hit"


"the most effective fury generator (as somoene had mentioned) is to use Weapon Throw (Mighty Throw or Hammer rune) combined with passive No Escape and your Battle Rage (Into the Fray rune) to shoot fury generation up to 29 per crit (100% proc ratio on weapon throw's Mighty Throw and Hammer rune). "


I question this. If Weapon Throw costs 10 fury, and returns 29 fury on a crit with both "No Escape" and "Into the Fray" then the expected fury per Weapon Throw is a function of your crit chance (cc):

Expected fury gain per attack = (14 + 15) * cc - 10

At 60% cc, I expect 29 * .6 - 10 = +7.4 fury / attack

Compare that to Bash/Instigate with Into the Fray:

Expected fury gain per attack = 12 + 15 * cc

At 60% cc, I expect 12 + 15 * .6 = +21 fury / attack

At best, with 100% cc, Weapon Throw would return 19 fury/attack vs 27 for Bash/Instigation. Have I missed an assumption somewhere?
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Throw consumes fury, but what matters is fury gain, not net fury gain. 29 fury is gained per throw, which is over 1 second added to WotB (25 fury gain increases duration 1 second). It will actually be hard to spend fury fast enough. You will need to spam battle rage or rend or sprint to make sure you are losing at least 25 fury per second, unless you can manage 2.5 attacks per second.

The other thing you are missing is that bash swings slower than throw. The animation is slower, so your fury per second is less even though fury per attack on average is higher (21 vs 17.4). And finally, bash requires you be in melee range to make fury, whereas throw can be spammed at anything provided a clear line of sight.
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I question this. If Weapon Throw costs 10 fury, and returns 29 fury on a crit with both "No Escape" and "Into the Fray" then the expected fury per Weapon Throw is a function of your crit chance (cc):

Expected fury gain per attack = (14 + 15) * cc - 10

At 60% cc, I expect 29 * .6 - 10 = +7.4 fury / attack

Compare that to Bash/Instigate with Into the Fray:

Expected fury gain per attack = 12 + 15 * cc

At 60% cc, I expect 12 + 15 * .6 = +21 fury / attack

At best, with 100% cc, Weapon Throw would return 19 fury/attack vs 27 for Bash/Instigation. Have I missed an assumption somewhere?


Hello,

Strictly speaking, for fury generation, the assumption, as per my post, is that you have a belt that gives either -4 or -5 to weapon throw cost, AND an SoJ with -4 or -5 to weapon throw cost.

Having a ground total of -9 (NOT -10) weapon throw cost is the most ideal. -9 is desireable because if you have 0 fury AND your weapon throw cost is less than 1 there is a bug that prevents you from attacking properly (you perform the attack animation, but no damage occurs and no weapons are thrown). If you have 0 fury AND your weapon throw cost is greater or equal to 1, your character will still melee. Having -8 is no difference, practically speaking, from -9. Dipping down to -5, you start feeling a difference if you waste a few weapon throws hitting air or not critting. At -3 weapon throw, you do not have enough to make weapon throw any good as a fury generator.

If you want to test this yourself, buy a cheap belt (rare quality or !@#$ty stats IK belt) with -5 weapon throw and test it out.

TLDR: The use of weapon throw as a fury generator assumes you have at least -5 weapon throw belt AND some vagrant-deviant-of-a-ring/ammy that gives you another ~ -4 weapon throw.

Edit: someone mentioned that if you generate fury so fast, you will fury cap and be forced to stupidly spam Battle Rage and Sprint. <-- This is Truth. I have not yet tested if -5 weapon throw is the "sweet spot" of standing still and just weapon throwing all day while NOT having to spam battle rage and sprint to maintain WotB - Thrive on Chaos. However, I would like to underline that the point of using weapon throw, as per the intent of this post, is as a fury generator. Therefore, having minimal cost to weapon throw is best and fury capping ASAP increases your quality-of-life when you want to generate fury quickly without leaning on the crutch of abilities called "Fury Generators" that do sub-par damage, require melee range, and have lackluster runes.

If your intent was to stand there and spam weapon throw without having to spam Sprint and Battle Rage, then perhaps -5 weapon throw is the right amount. At high attack speed of WW barbs, this may be true (I have not tested this, just a conjecture). However if you desire to stand there and just throw weapons and have that be viable to maintain WotB as both a fury generator AND spendor, then you will be building a PURIST throw barb and will be using 300th spear, and will not use WW/Run like the wind. Indeed if you desire a PURIST throw barb, then I would suggest look at my profile because I normally log out as a purist throw barb, and not as TWW (throw/WW) hybrid.
Edited by Boohaha#1553 on 10/30/2012 12:01 PM PDT
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I think the selling point of WT is that it helps builds desperately starved on fury to beat down ranged elites with single target dps instead of whirling around with 12 fury. fury generation can not be solved solely with a single target attack and even in the best scenario WT is a far cry from true fury generation from high CC + high ias and maybe even mw fury bonus.

bash-tigation gives a tremendous amount of fury and is one of the few skills that can generate a lot of wotb time- obviously you need a lot of ias for it to work as well.
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I think one of the other selling points is that with high IAS, you can stunlock with weapon throw (50% chance to stun). I was doing MP8 yesterday with some friends, and we managed to stunlock all the ubers such that the fight became trivial even though some of my friends would get 1 shotted.

Although monks could do this because of their 50% chance to stun item "Sledge fist", it gimps their dps because Sledge fist is ~300 dps weapon. Now barbs can perma stun like monks, except do it at range! And while maintaining WotB! =D!
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The build looks very interesting, and I'm going to try it soon. However, the following statements don't make sense to me.

"In terms of fury generation, there is nothing better. It's great because once battle rage is up, there's no downtime on fury generation/building. Each critical hit adds 29 fury with the No Escape passive active. Compared to Bash's Instigation -- which is 12 per hit"


"the most effective fury generator (as somoene had mentioned) is to use Weapon Throw (Mighty Throw or Hammer rune) combined with passive No Escape and your Battle Rage (Into the Fray rune) to shoot fury generation up to 29 per crit (100% proc ratio on weapon throw's Mighty Throw and Hammer rune). "


I question this. If Weapon Throw costs 10 fury, and returns 29 fury on a crit with both "No Escape" and "Into the Fray" then the expected fury per Weapon Throw is a function of your crit chance (cc):

Expected fury gain per attack = (14 + 15) * cc - 10

At 60% cc, I expect 29 * .6 - 10 = +7.4 fury / attack

Compare that to Bash/Instigate with Into the Fray:

Expected fury gain per attack = 12 + 15 * cc

At 60% cc, I expect 12 + 15 * .6 = +21 fury / attack

At best, with 100% cc, Weapon Throw would return 19 fury/attack vs 27 for Bash/Instigation. Have I missed an assumption somewhere?


As @Jim pointed out, it's the net gains of fury and the faster animation. Consider this sequence:

1) Sprint - 20 fury
2) Throw - 10 fury
3) Net gains - 29 fury
4) 1 second gained -1 fury, but 29 gained (which doesn't account for sprint procs, meaning more fury gained during that sequence).

I usually throw in cycles depending on the density.

@Boohaha -- I went for Rend resource reduction on my belt. I haven't considered the bug you mentioned; do you have fury issues in terms of trying to hold Wrath with -9 reduction to throw?
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dude. i tried this but could not do it =/ also i think i am ok geared.

can I see u playing or a youtube video?

ty
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I think that weapon throw is fantastic, but I need warcry to survive at mp5. I guess most of you have 1k loh in addition to ls and full ik set, so there's more mitigation. Otherwise I'm not sure how everyone is surviving so well
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11/04/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Beast
I think that weapon throw is fantastic, but I need warcry to survive at mp5. I guess most of you have 1k loh in addition to ls and full ik set, so there's more mitigation. Otherwise I'm not sure how everyone is surviving so well


I replaced bash (or frenzy) with WT. You have to get up enough fury by being hit or by using warcry to start it up but once it's going you're good.
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Tried playing with throw this weekend. It is incredibly good and makes maintaining WotB trivial where it used to be very difficult. Where before I had trouble keeping WotB up because I don't have lacuni, I can keep it up indefinitely in Alk runs. I only have 12% MS on boots, nowhere else. So I often ground my teeth as I finally found that next patch of monsters, only to lose WotB as I engaged them. I'd think, "If only I had a bit more move speed, I'd have been able to keep up WotB."

With throw, you can immediately start resetting the timer a screen away from the mobs as long as you have a bit of fury in the tank. With WotB and killing spree, the chance to crit is about 73% for my barb, so odds of a very quick 58 fury from just two throws are very high.

Throw with no escape is so much better than bash for gaining fury. Not only does it provide faster fury gain per second of use than bash, but it also can be used a screen away from your target. You can also use it to open barrels and other breakables because you can crit barrels and regen fury. In the rare case where you fail to crit at all with the bit of fury left, you have to close to melee to get a normal attack to proc into the fray, which is what you would have to do with bash anyway. So worst case, with no fury left, throw is a bit worse than bash, but only til you get that first normal hit crit.

The only downside to the build is the start up if you lack weapon throw reduction items, like me. But that period is so brief that it's really negligible. My farming build for the foreseeable future (OP:KS, not rend):

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fhPURQ!fYZ!aZcZYZ
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Odd that I just found this thread, considering I have been using this build for the past few days. I picked up a a IK belt(with -5 WT) with only -3 main stat under my current rare belt that acrimony found for me. Just wanted to say that even though I use War Cry>Impunity, if it is on cooldown, and I am at 0 fury, basically Weapon Throw will take a swing at anything if it does not have enough fury, so even hitting a barrel or other breakable object 1 single time with a default melee swing will get my fury to max in the next 3-5 Weapon Throws.

The only thing I changed in my WW build is I replaced Bash>Instigation with Weapon Throw(Ricochet for farming, Throwing Hammer for Ubers) and IMHO this build is so much better because it offers diversity. I can literally Spin to Win in mobs and have no issues with health or fury, and when the mobs start to dwindle down I can hit them from range and not worry about Life or Fury as well. Not to mention, the killstreak's are greater because I now have an option for ranged attack on single targets until I can get to the next MOB.

WoTB>Thrive on Chaos can be kept up by simply Spinning through mobs and dumping fury into Battle Rage and Sprint and or standing completely still, spamming weapon throw while dumping fury into Battle Rage and Sprint. I would previously usually lose WoTB after a little while because there just wasn't enough mobs in the area and I would lose WoTB while searching for the next mob. With Weapon Throw on the right MP level, you should be able to keep WoTB going for quite a bit longer than without it.

For reference, my quipment(with gems) cost less than 200 million and I can key farm at MP7(in groups) with little to no problems. MP8 Ubers are no problems either as long as each member can hold their own and have a gameplan. For solo xp/item farming. I run at MP4 as I find it most effecient or MP5 if I am trying to max magic find.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fhkRUP!ZYf!bZcYZc
Edited by Sandstorm#1682 on 11/5/2012 10:43 AM PST
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@Boohaha -- I went for Rend resource reduction on my belt. I haven't considered the bug you mentioned; do you have fury issues in terms of trying to hold Wrath with -9 reduction to throw?


Hi acrimony, sorry for the late reply.

I am able to hold Wrath on MP10 Ubers while using -9 weapon throw, but it's not fun b/c my fingers tire from BattleRage + Sprint spam:
Actually, when I do high level MP runs, I can't do a pure Weapon Throw build because it is inefficient for AOE and standing still is terrible when fighting arcane/desecrator elites. Therefore, I utilize the same weapon throw/WW/Sprint hybrid as you/others.

At -9 fury cost, I am unable to use weapon throw as a fury sink. Therefore, my fury sink is WW/Sprint + Rend (recently, however, I started experimenting with HotA). I use weapon throw only to stun lock, hit very far mobs/ranged elites, or as fury generator. That being said, I tested and was able to maintain WotB using -9 Weapon Throw while standing still, mindlessly spamming Battle Rage and Sprint on all 3 MP10 Ubers. But at high MP levels, using only weapon throw (at -9) and stupidly spamming Battle Rage and Sprint while standing still is silly because WW/Sprint would do way more damage, as per Nubtro's Sprint torando damage calculations. Also, spamming Battle Rage and Sprint so much makes my fingers tired and really decreases the joy of playing.

tldr: I use Weapon Throw as a fury generator/stunlock only. My fury sink is Hota and/or WW/Sprint. I finally tried HotA, at 20 fury cost, and to my surprise was able to maintain WotB very very easily. Of course, a string of no crits or Ubers running out of my hit range as HotA landed still makes me use Weapon Throw to give me fury. But using HotA, I no longer have to spam Battle Rage + Sprint. It made the game that much more relaxing.

Some of the math if people were interested in standing still while maintaining WotB, and not having to spam Battle Rage + Sprint
At -9 fury cost to weapon throw, weapon throw definitely isn't used as a fury spender, unless I can throw 25 weapons per second (i.e. spending 25 fury per second).

At -5, you would have to throw 5 weapons per second to use 25 fury per second.

At -2, you would have to throw 25/8 = 3.125 attacks per second to use 25 fury per second.

At -1, you would have to throw 25/9 = 2.7 weapons thrown per second, to use 25 fury per second.

At -0 (no reduction of weapon throw's fury cost), you would have to throw 2.5 weapons per second. 2.5 attacks per second is quite achieveable as a WW/Sprint barb. However, if you gear yourself with such attack speed, you are gearing yourself in such a way that your damage is maximized by using the WW/Sprint setup (search for Nubtro's post on the damage of the tornados and the attackspeed breakpoints). If you gear yourself as a WW/Sprint barb, then you should use WW/Sprint instead of standing still to throw because your throw damage will be very low compared to WW/Sprint.
Edited by Boohaha#1553 on 11/5/2012 11:09 AM PST
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@Jim & Sandstorm -- thanks for posting about your experiences with the build. And Sandstorm, it sounds like you've really made massive gains on your farming efficiency. Been watching from a distance and noticed you have been levelling up quickly. Great work.

@Boohaha -- I agree. The only benefits to getting fury reduction on gear is to have an easier time starting up. Otherwise, it's useless in terms of Wrath uptime -- or at the very least, detrimental to the uptime.
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