Diablo® III

Disappointed with Nephalem Valor

lol, but believe me NV is very needed.
without NV everyone will change ability like as they want. this why they create NV.
if u find hard elite pack u will change ability; find other elites u will change again. even if u want to kill boss u will change again. believe me there is no enjoy for playing game like that.
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As we already said, anyone can still just keep farming Diablo or Gnom without NV and still get legendaries. NV only (read again, only) gives you 2 more drops which is at least a rare.

In other words, if you don't like NV and have a good amount of MF, you can just farm the boss 3 or 4 times, in the same time it will take to acquire 5 NV and will most probably have the same chances to get the same number of rares and legendaries.


Not quite, bosses not only get the 2 extra 'guaranteed to be at least 4 prop' rare items, they actually get another item added for each stack.

Killing a boss with 1 stack will add another drop.
Killing a boss with 2 stacks will add 2 drops.
Killing a boss with 3 stacks will add 3 drops.
Killing a boss with 4 stacks will add 4 drops, one of which will never be below 4 prop rare.
Killing a boss with 5 stacks will add 5 drops, two of which will never be below 4 prop rare.
Edited by Anuhart#2131 on 12/18/2012 8:26 PM PST
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It's fine, there's no point in further rewarding 5 to 10 minute games that defeats your entire philosophy of not wanting 5 to 10 minutes boss runs that D2 was noted for.

Stick to a philosophy, you guys bounce around WAY too much. You either like longer runs or you like shorter runs. IMO you should be rewarding longer runs even more cuz right now it's all about dem Alakiezer and VoTA runs (short runs if you're not familiar) and if you're run is taking more than 30 minutes zomg you're doing it wrong. It shouldn't be like this.

There actually should be a system in place that goes beyond 5 stack maybe in smaller increments to reward longer runs more. The VoA runs are the stupidest crap I've ever heard aside from maybe snake runs for signet in normal mode... those shouldn't exist.
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 12/18/2012 8:39 PM PST
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lol, but believe me NV is very needed.
without NV everyone will change ability like as they want. this why they create NV.
if u find hard elite pack u will change ability; find other elites u will change again. even if u want to kill boss u will change again. believe me there is no enjoy for playing game like that.


I completely disagree with your reasoning, while I agree NV is good in ways, though.

While personally I would mostly relish the challenge of beating anything in front of me with my preferred build, the one I enjoy. Choice and diversity are good.

Here's the thing...
These forums are full of QQ, every day another thread appears whining about some mechanic. We have seen them all and will carry on seeing them, Invul minions, RD (current known bugs accepted), goblin HP in high MPs, and on and on.

There are solutions to all the QQ in the skills we have available, but people will dismiss that as 'being required to use a mandatory skill'.

If we were allowed to swap skills for different situations without losing NV, those who wanted to remain with a certain skill set and take the challenge, can do. Those who want to swap to a high dps long cd skill, can do. Those who want to swap to a life return skill or passive, can do.

This would result in less QQ, or at least less QQ that would easily dismiss offered solutions from skills. It would result in less things being removed from the game, less dumbing down, less homogenizing. Hell, it could even result in the game evolving more in the other direction and throwing stuff at us that requires us to actually use different skills.
Edited by Anuhart#2131 on 12/18/2012 8:37 PM PST
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12/18/2012 08:24 PMPosted by SnakeSnack
without NV everyone will change ability like as they want. this why they create NV.


Honestly, who cares if someone pulls a 30 sec cooldown skill change, or a tp to town to change (consider you have to avoid hits for this).

Do you really think someone who changes skills rapidly can farm for eternities? that they can outfarm the reward of making a strong all around build so you dont have to change skills and can keep going, perpetual style mode?

If someone can keep doing that !@#$ all day, then let them! They are clearly enjoying that play style if they dont get tired and outfarmed by one who just keep going with the same build. You have to be thoroughly deranged / hardcore to play like that, and if you are, why not be rewarded in the game for it, reach out to those players?

You also seem to be forgetting that the challenge of the game is so little, that the reward for changing skills all the time becomes insignificant. It is just more censorship, less choice for the player.

EDIT: Also as above post says, from a slightly different perspective. Bring more choices to the player, stop the censor already!
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 12/18/2012 8:42 PM PST
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Imo they should eliminate the whole NV system.

In order to keep ppl from doing the same runs over and over you should give different loot tables for different bosses and rares.

For example: The skeleton king has a much bigger chance of dropping IK set pieces than lets say ... Azmodan would.

The Butcher would have greater chances of dropping the Butchers Sickle than any other bosses or rares.

Certain events that end with a rare mob will have huge chances of dropping a certain item, etc.

And off course Diablo will have the most chances of dropping a MEMPO.

Players will be forced to having a certain build for doing the run they are attempting.

The best thing about Diablo will always be doing certain runs, at least thats what kept so many ppl playing in Diablo 2 and LOD imo (pvp also).

Sorry for my english, its not my first language.
Edited by Apocalypse#1911 on 12/18/2012 8:43 PM PST
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without NV everyone will change ability like as they want. this why they create NV.


Honestly, who cares if someone pulls a 30 sec cooldown skill change, or a tp to town to change (consider you have to avoid hits for this).

Do you really think someone who changes skills rapidly can farm for eternities? that they can outfarm the reward of making a strong all around build so you dont have to change skills and can keep going, perpetual style mode?

If someone can keep doing that !@#$ all day, then let them! They are clearly enjoying that play style if they dont get tired and outfarmed by one who just keep going with the same build. You have to be thoroughly deranged / hardcore to play like that, and if you are, why not be rewarded in the game for it, reach out to those players?

You also seem to be forgetting that the challenge of the game is so little, that the reward for changing skills all the time becomes insignificant. It is just more censorship, less choice for the player.

EDIT: Also as above post says, from a slightly different perspective. Bring more choices to the player, stop the censor already!


Indeed, brother, indeed.
Edited by Anuhart#2131 on 12/18/2012 8:43 PM PST
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Imo they should eliminate the whole NV system. In order to keep ppl from doing the same runs over and over you should give different loot tables for different bosses and rares.


The itemization and loot tables have a wow like approach. This is one of the major problem of Diablo that manifests throughout everything. However this topic requires a thread of its own.
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Blizzard is delusional. NV had a large part in destroying magic find and the economy as well. Since NV gave free MF, as well as a guaranteed rare (that has a chance to roll legendary) nobody felt the need to build MF and as a result, EVERYBODY was finding items and littering the AH with items both good and bad.

You guys broke the very essence of MF. MF was an integral part to Diablo and a part of the fun was building a set that did both damage and had a high MF stat. The 1.0.4 legendaries did a lot to that end.

It wasn't even about the item hunt anymore. People skipped that whole process just to paragon level (b/c mf was free), encouraging people to buy the best gear possible to level the fastest. It makes me question whether that whole patch was just about the RMAH and not about the game.
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Imo they should eliminate the whole NV system. In order to keep ppl from doing the same runs over and over you should give different loot tables for different bosses and rares.

The itemization and loot tables have a wow like approach. This is one of the major problem of Diablo that manifests throughout everything. However this topic requires a thread of its own.


The loot tables were invented in Diablo 1 and 2 mate, i have no idea about WOW.
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Apocalypse, what i mean is, the form of lootable we see here is similar to that of wow.

We have generalized drops, and zones that only drop items in its level. No lower unique drops etc on the loot tables for inferno mp1.
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11/12/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Morningrise
Now, I am realizing that it feels really dumb. It doesn't feel fun to go out and hunt down Elite packs, just to get 5 stacks of this buff, before you start MFing. I always liked to turn to Diablo when I had 20 minutes before I had to leave the house for work or class, I could get in a couple Mephisto runs and maybe get some quick loot to be excited for when I got home. That is no longer possible, seeing that it will often take 20 minutes just to get your 5 stacks up. Now, a magic find run that could be 5 minutes has turned into 45 minutes. Diablo used to be the contrast to WOW for me, because it was casual, and had immediate gratification, wheras you'd have to dump lots of time to accomplish something in WOW. Now that's how it feels in Diablo 3.


Agreed.

TLDR: Nephalem Valor isn't fun; remove it and let us farm where we want without farming buffs. I don't want to play in more areas, and I don't want to play longer. I want to play where I want for how long I want.


Disagreed.

Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.

That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.

Great thread!


Well put.

Nephalem Valor is overly biased toward very long runs currently. However, scrapping the system is not as good as tweaking it. Without Valor it is just as bad because then you just do the same 5 minutes of content a zillion times a day.

I think the biggest issue with Valor is that it does not scale with gear. What I mean by that is a player who has godly gear can do an efficient run in 10 minutes with Valor so they see no problem in the system. However a player with average or below gear takes 30-60 minutes to do the same run and Valor is a problem for these players. Blizzard needs to find a way to let players have good results from play sessions that are ~15 minutes long no matter how much DPS you have, and Nephalem Valor does not provide those results. Optimal play session length should not be determined by your DPS, it should be determined by the intrinsic nature of the game. I don't have a fix, but one thing I think would help is to reduce the max limit of Valor to 3 stacks and each stack gives 20% buff instead of 15% buff. A little bit less benefit, a little bit quicker accumulation: doesn't effect the most dedicated players much, but noticeable aid to casuals.
Another thing is leveling out the Monster Power rewards so that people don't get stuck playing MP0. As it is currently, DPS trumps Monster Power, so the other valve that could adjust play session length also doesn't work as it should. Although pushing player to play higher MP would obviously slow down runs, so again, lowering the quota on NV is still beneficial.
Edited by Polaris#1903 on 12/18/2012 9:04 PM PST
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Apocalypse, what i mean is, the form of lootable we see here is similar to that of wow.

We have generalized drops, and zones that only drop items in its level. No lower unique drops etc on the loot tables for inferno mp1.


Ok, my bad.
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don't know if this has been posted before. if it has then sorry.

my issue with nv is the inability to change skills. whats the use of having so many skills at your disposal but unable to change them because you will lose your NV stacks.

suggestion would be to remove one stack for one skill change. would really help in going against ubers :)
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Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.

That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.

Great thread!


I think that Nephalem Valor was a pretty cool addition to the Diablo series. The problem, however, is that in its current iteration, it feels like a chore rather than making the game more fun or feel beneficial.

Here's a suggestion:

- NV stacks no longer guarantee a rare.
- NV now stacks indefinitely.
- Each stack provides +10% magic find/gold find.
(Keys/Organs still require at least 5 stacks to drop.)

Nephalem Valor should also start at level 30 or something. It would make leveling more interesting, and encourage farming at lower levels, rather than simply rushing to 60.
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NV stacks are fine, the mechanism is fine.
If they remove NV stacks they have to nerf all boss loot, because there's boss you can fight instantly and that wouldn't be fair with other bosses.

Who would ever fight their way up to the butcher, when you can start ZK's fight in 5 seconds?
NV stacks were (partially) ment to remove D3's pindleskin ( which are also easier to bot ).
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Why not adjust and cap the stacks at 3?

It doesn't eliminate the goal of nv to kill 1 min farms, yet playtimes of ~30 minutes are not seen as fruitless.

I agree in that I see the importance of NV, but when I feel like killing a half hour or 20 min I just don't see a point on playing d3 due to the benefits of a full stack farm.
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5NV is really annoying, especially in ACT4.
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