Diablo® III

The Real Problem With Reflect Damage

For everyone complaining about Reflect Damage, the real problem is that when you're dying from it very fast it's most likely a bug that affects Reflect Damage Minions. Also, this did not happen after patch 1.05, but after the hotfix on 10/23. I had no problem whatsoever with Reflect Damage Elites prior to that hotfix.

Pay attention next time you fight a Reflect Damage Elite Pack;If you have LOH or LS with enough all resist, and armor, you should be able to handle Blue Groups or the Yellow Leaders with the Reflect Damage affix without having any damage reflected back. If you run into Minions with Reflect Damage, that's a different story. If you do more of a group attack and hit all of the minions at the same time, you will die very very quickly. There is a bug and it needs to be fixed.

Try it out and if you find the same to be true, bump the thread or request a sticky so Blizzard realizes there really is an issue and they need to revert it to how it was supposed to be. I really believe they did something during the hotfix on 10/23 to mess something up with Reflect Damage Minions. For it to be so specific, there has to be a problem. Seriously, Blue Reflect Damage Elties and the Yellow Leaders don't do a thing to me, but the Minions put on a world of hurt.

Also, yes, I can kill the minions, but it really is a nuisance to have to run around in the meantime waiting for my skills to cool down multiple times.

Update 11/19/2012

It seems that under certain conditions,(I don't know what they exactly are, but I'm meeting them) the RD Minons Reflect 2 attacks back and the Yellow Leaders only reflect 1 attack back. Give it a shot and try it out.
Edited by TruongSifu#1826 on 11/19/2012 8:38 PM PST
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RD is broken altogether. More so when mobs are in hordes or have low defense like shamans.
Edited by alpahc#2190 on 11/5/2012 1:24 PM PST
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Posts: 4,984
You may be right. A couple of different times I noticed that my shadow power doesn't always work on RD and I end up losing health instead of gaining it. More testing needed.
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When mobs are in hordes, what do they have the most of?...Minions.
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Horde plus extra life plus spammed meteor = dead wizard.
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66 Gnome Rogue
935
Posts: 1,267
People lack skills. That is the problem with RD.

I never kill myself because I have the skills and I look good using them.

My enchantress regularly says that she is most impressed [with me]. I know she is. I just know it.
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If you do more of a group attack and hit all of the minions at the same time, you will die very very quickly. There is a bug and it needs to be fixed.


How is that a bug? Minions on Rare Elites tend to have at least one or two affixes that the leader of the pack has. Thus, if they have RD affix, and you hit all of them at once, that's one hell of a lot of damage reflected back at you.

That doesn't sound like a bug, that sounds like poor planning...

"Not only am I going to unleash my super devastating attacks on ONE enemy that reflects damage back at me, but I'm going attack all his little buddies that have that same enchantment AT THE SAME TIME!! My hope is that I'll multiply the effect, and I'll hurt even more!"

*sigh*...Come on...stop...
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11/05/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Ossian
Horde plus extra life plus spammed meteor = dead wizard.


LOL that is true.

Beginning with the 1.0.5 Patch I switched my build around to a meteor build. Before that I would use the CC/WW build or disintegrate/blizzard build and never had a problem with reflect damage because all of that damage was over time.

At the start of this patch I was always getting frustrated with RD and couldn't figure out why I was all the sudden getting wasted by it. Then one day I switched back to me CC/WW build and it is no longer a problem again; at least on the current MP levels I play.
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How is it not a bug if I attack the Leader of the Minions and have nothing at all, not one bit of damage reflected back at me, and can kill him in less than a min, but I attack 1 minion and have between 1/8 - 1/4 of my health taken away;that results in me taking at least twice the amount of time to kill 1 minion that has only a fraction of the health because I can't touch him unless I use serenity, which gives me invulnerability?

If it wasn't a bug, shouldn't I have to do same thing with the boss that has well more than twice the health as hit minon to kill him? It should take me longer to kill 1 Elite Pack Yellow leader than it takes me to kill 1 Elite Pack Minion.

Did I not state that the actual Blue Elites or the Minions' leader don't do anything to me?

Let me repeat again. I attack The big boss of the minons and do not receive any damage whatsoever, but I attack 1 minon and 1/8 - 1/4 of my health per hit is taken away. Is there not something wrong with that? I can't even believe that I had to go into even more. Of course I'm gonna die really quickly if I hit all of them at the same time. Apparently I had to state that a single one also does damage to me... C'mon man, that's common sense.

The main point is in very simple terms. "How come a Yellow Leader and a pack of Blue Elites don't reflect any damage whatsoever when you have the equipment to cancel Reflect Damage out, but Minons Reflect massives amount of damage back, single or a group of minions?"
Edited by TruongSifu#1826 on 11/5/2012 2:12 PM PST
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Just had to make a minor edit to the original post for people that can't read the whole post and comprehend the context as a whole but only read small parts of it and think they can comprehend....
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Just bumbing this post bro :D hopefully one of the mods reads my comment :)

I've been testing out reflect damage for a while since 1.0.5 launched. I don't think it’s imbalanced, though there is i believe some sort of bug in its calculations. I roll a monk, a dh, and barb by the way. Detailed stats are at diabloprogress if curiosity strikes at you, i do swap gears/gems from time to time.

Anyway upon testing, i think there is this "odd" bug that messes with RD calculations in this patch. Sometimes reflect takes a chunk out of my life, but mostly it doesn't hurt at all. That goes for all of my characters. 1/8 there will be a reflect mob that will hurt like hell. Take note, the keywords are “hurt like hell” not “dying in vain”. That is if I play smartly avoiding my constant murderous rage. Hehe lol.

All my tests are done at MP0 to MP6. I've tested this rigorously and came to a theory that RD calculations might have other factors involved in 1.0.5. Perhaps monster damage and HP is taken into RD reflect calculations? i don't know exactly, but damage varies a LOT that it has gotten my attention.

Another strange thing is that once yesterday at an MP0 public game, i encountered a mob that upon hitting once with seismic slam i died instantaneously at full health. If at MP0 that happens then my above statements proves to be null and void. lol.

My damage has been consistent in all my tests; my barbs AOE Seismic slam hits for 750k-950k Crit Damage. Buffed im at 500 AR, 9500 Armor, 30k HP, 1300 passive regen, 3% life steal.

While dual wielding even my monk feels that there is something wrong with RD this time around. lol. Buffed i'm at [40-70k dps + (24%-48% DMG overawe buff)], 4.8k armor, 1,500 AR (that's dual wielding), 37k hp, 3,000 passive regen.

Please don't tell me to stack more resists, i have the highest working resists buffed in the world (defensively i'm at 1,975 AR, 9.8k armor keen eyed, 42% crit chance, and 200% crit damage).

Might there be someone here who did a spreadsheet or further testing regarding RD damage? Please share your insights, calculations, or theories. I wish there was more light to this subject rather than people wasting time just QQing about it with fake low-level accounts or literally no AR to boot. Lol.

More power to this game and the coming patches! Lovin’ Diablo 3 ever since! :)
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Bump for accuracy.

OP is correct.

I farm regularly on MP7 like its a joke. The yellow elites I can single target high DPS skill down while gaining life easily on 6% lifesteal.
I can do the same for blues, even while standing in any pool they can sling at me, arcane sentries, dese, plague, all at once, np.

Hit a RD minion of any type a few times and im running like a baby.
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np. Nice! Some more support.

There is something wrong with RD and if you think about all the posts in other forums of people saying "use this skill and that skill with this and that..." That totally goes against the whole reason Blizzard totally nerfed every classes defensive skills. What they wanted was build diversity,but if reflect damage is forcing people to use certain skills, it totally goes against build diversity again and is forcing players to use certain builds to handle Reflect Damage.

They just need to get Reflect Damage back to how it was pre Hotfix 10/23/2012.
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Posts: 7,835
I don't think it is a "bug". Reflect damage is always a % of the damage you deal (it seems to be constant on all difficulties because it will scale with you). So if it was 25% of the damage you deal reflected, on MP10 this would be almost 100% of the damage you deal reflected. Also realize, that now you are dealing with level 63 enemies, so your mitigation is different as well.

Reflect damage isnt actually 25%, i just threw that number out there.

I did try your test, but i found the reverse results (yellow leader reflects more damage than minions). I havent compared it with blue champions yet. Perhaps the reflect damage affix may be affected by the elemental affixes as well as their melee attacks. So the leader may have the damage split on multiple elements (one of which you probably have a higher resistance to) while the minions only have it on 1 or 2.

There is something wrong with RD and if you think about all the posts in other forums of people saying "use this skill and that skill with this and that..." That totally goes against the whole reason Blizzard totally nerfed every classes defensive skills. What they wanted was build diversity,but if reflect damage is forcing people to use certain skills, it totally goes against build diversity again and is forcing players to use certain builds to handle Reflect Damage.


On the other hand, glass cannon builds can become too attractive up to a point where they had to make death meaningful. Making defensive skills more on par with each other is one thing, but getting rid of them completely and benefiting from them so much is another.
Edited by Brathearon#1214 on 11/5/2012 7:23 PM PST
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I did try your test, but i found the reverse results (yellow leader reflects more damage than minions). I havent compared it with blue champions yet. Perhaps the reflect damage affix may be affected by the elemental affixes as well as their melee attacks. So the leader may have the damage split on multiple elements (one of which you probably have a higher resistance to) while the minions only have it on 1 or 2.


You don't even have enough all resist, armor, or even a bit of LS or LOH with or without your skills.

Now imagine if you actually had over 600 All Resist, 5000 Armor, and 5.9% Life Steal and you still get damage reflected back only by minions. Also, the amount of life I get back per hit is a lot since it is lifesteal. It ranges from 1000-6000 life back per hit. I'm pretty sure 1000 is when I'm pretty much topped off on my health. Seriously I don't get a bit of damage reflected back at me by the Blues and the Yellow Leaders. You do not even have the equipment to cancel out the damage the way it should work. You do have more health than me, but what does health matter when you don't have enough armor and resist to back it up?

Also I did state

Pay attention next time you fight a Reflect Damage Elite Pack;If you have LOH or LS with enough all resist, you should be able to handle Blue Groups or the Yellow Leaders with the Reflect Damage affix without having any damage reflected back


I did just edit part of my post to include "and armor" , but I did not make any change to anything else.
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Posts: 1,731
The real problem is that it's iron maiden in a different form, and iron maiden sucked.
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You don't even have enough all resist, armor, or even a bit of LS or LOH with or without your skills.

Now imagine if you actually had over 600 All Resist, 5000 Armor, and 5.9% Life Steal and you still get damage reflected back only by minions. Also, the amount of life I get back per hit is a lot since it is lifesteal. It ranges from 1000-6000 life back per hit. I'm pretty sure 1000 is when I'm pretty much topped off on my health. Seriously I don't get a bit of damage reflected back at me by the Blues and the Yellow Leaders. You do not even have the equipment to cancel out the damage the way it should work. You do have more health than me, but what does health matter when you don't have enough armor and resist to back it up?


I do have different sets of gear for different purposes, but regardless, the amount of damage reflected should not be dependant on how much LOH or LS you have. Nor should the minions automatically deal more reflected damage than the leader just because of your lifesteal or defenses.

I'm not exactly sure why it would be necessary to bring it up to the point of your test when you can read off the numbers that show up as reflected damage. It is either higher or lower, nothing can change that.
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What if they make it so that RD can get you down to 1hp, but can't actually kill you? Glass cannons could survive, but they would have to be even more cautious when fighting RD packs. This also stops insta suicide when fighting lots of RD minions at once.

Thoughts?
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bump here.

You might be onto something here. After the hotfix, I had noticed RD was worse on some particular mobs - but not sure why. Realising this, yesterday I was getting owned in mp7, tower of the damned 1.. RD phasebeasts. Usually they weren't so bad, but I was getting smashed too easy. Turns out they were the minions. killed them after dying heaps then finally found the golden one. that was REALLY easy.

if more testing can be done, I would suggest you put it in the bug report forum too and link this thread as some sort of confirmation.
Edited by Weegee#6520 on 11/5/2012 8:05 PM PST
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