Diablo® III

The Real Problem With Reflect Damage

bump!

i do swap gear for RD packs. At 9xx phsyical resist, 7.8k armor, 2.9 LS, RD packs "usually" do nothing to me. However, somehow around 1/10 RD packs I just 1 shot myself and not sure why. sometimes it is blue pack, sometimes it is yellow packs.
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Just to sum up the discussions above, RD is a good aspect of the game and very much welcomed. However, there is an "odd" damage inconsistency to it that is just unexplained as we progress through various MP's.

For a live example, i'm now playing my Barb SSlammer build at MP6 Act 3. RD here even with the minions is tankable given my current gear. I crit consistently at 900k and even spikes to 1M damage. Yet it is still tankable even as i hit the RD mobs.

However, yesterday i was playing at MP0 with a group of people. I then hit an RD champ pack then i instantly died. That was with 30k hp, 9.5k armor, 500AR, 3% life steal, and 1,300 passive regen.

I while ago i was using my monk for a quick MP2 run, then i hit an RD champ pack again. Despite my monks meager DPS of 40-70k + (24-48% overawe) damage. I saw my HP plummet suddenly to at least 1/3 after isolating a champ from its group then killing it.

My monks stats were 33k hp, 4.8k armor, 1.5k all res, 2.7k passive regen. The champ wasn't even retaliating because of the blinding flash skill. lol.

i think there is a bug somehow and somewhere in the formula :) must have gotten mixed up during the transition to 1.0.5 i don't know :)

Anyway, just a heads up to everybody that RD is still good, but it seems to be broken at odd times :) I am now noticing that it is usually during public or private multiplayer games that it becomes more prevalent.

Could it be that RD damage is multiplied by the number of people in the game? i dont know :D
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I'm not exactly sure why it would be necessary to bring it up to the point of your test when you can read off the numbers that show up as reflected damage. It is either higher or lower, nothing can change that.


Have you done DOT to a Reflect Damage Elite? For me, I get a foutain of numbers coming out of my character so I can even tell what damage I'm taking. I just killed a Blue Group on MP7 again with no problems and no damage reflected back because it was cancelled out. There was a fountain of numbers, but I didn't kill myself in 3-4 shots. I killed them without dying and without having any damage reflected back. I can find a group of Elites with Minions and I'm sure it'll turn out with me taking massive amounts of damage from them and not the leaders because I've fought so many elites with RD before. I'll post back again, when I do, but I find it very odd that after patch 1.05 and before Hotfix 10/23/2012 that, that was not the case, but it was after Hotfix 10/23/2012.

How do you explain that? I've never had a problem with Reflect Damage when I had adequate LoH or LS. I played with no LoH before and little LoH and now conditions with Minions are the same or even worse than that.

Also 7 Sided Strike, depending on what kills I use and when I can do between 800k-2million crits per hit. It heals me from almost no health, to full health. If the damage is even 1% above of my 5.9% Life Steal shouldn't I die either instantly or after 2-3 hits. Also if it does scale to above 100% of the damage reflected back,shouldn't I die instantly every time I do 7 sided strike?

Anways the point for you is to try the again with LoH or LS, with enough armor and resist and see if you get the same results. Borrow equipment from your friends if you have to, but if you have enough Blues and Yellows shouldn't reflect anything back at you. Either way something is wrong. The minions shouldn't reflect more damage than the Yellow Leaders or the Blue packs when you have the gear with the right stats. They should either fix the minions or make it so the Yellows and the Blues also reflect massive damage back at players when they attack them too.

I'd honestly rather have them do the 1st choice though.
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11/05/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Weegee
if more testing can be done, I would suggest you put it in the bug report forum too and link this thread as some sort of confirmation.


I've actually put it in the bug report section before and got only 1 or 2 replies from users nothing from moderators. Seems like threads in general get more attention from regular users than bug reports do and it seems when a subject is poplular enough, the mods finally make a response.
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11/05/2012 08:34 PMPosted by ZRaiyne
My monks stats were 33k hp, 4.8k armor, 1.5k all res, 2.7k passive regen.


That is tons of resist and regen!
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Thanks bro, i try. :D

Resistance: 1,102
world: 68 (monk: 11)
Americas: 26 (monk: 7)

Life per Second: 2,663
world: 642 (monk: 130)
Americas: 317 (monk: 63)


Receiving damage from RD is a heresy i say, but somehow in 1.0.5 it still manages to bring me to my knees on occasion. lol.
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 11/5/2012 9:01 PM PST
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I thought I've seen this too. Normally my LR/LoH/LL give me back enough that I'm net positive over RD when fighting blues, but sometimes I'll run across a champ pack and all of a sudden my life just plummets. At first I wrote this off to the pack spawning with the Horde affix, but I've fought numerous non-horde affixed Champ + minion packs and the same thing happens. After about 2 stacks of poison hydra on a minion group, my HP drops like a rock. If I run into a pack of Elites with RD, it takes them standing still for long enough to fully stack poison pools on them for my life to drop at a comparable rate.
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Alright so I just did another test. This time on MP0. Minions reflected massive amounts of damage back still, not surprising, and with the Yellow Leader I did not only have any damage reflected back, but I actually was getting health back and seeing my health increase with every hit.

I had
117,059.05 Unbuffed DPS via Diablo Progress
138,673 DPS via my Battlenet profile.
674 All Resist
5,157 Armor
435 Life Per Second
5.9% Life Steal
7% Damage Reduction from Elites.

That for sure is enough to not get any damage, for me, reflected back by Blue Elite Groups and Yellow Leaders and instead, actually gain life from every hit that I land on them....the minions on the other hand reflect massive amounts of damage back. Of course on MP0, all I have to do is pop serenity, hit them 2-3 times and they're dead. On MP7 I have to run around while I'm waiting for Serenity and 7 Sided Strike to cool down. It's manageable, but quite annoying and definitely inefficient.
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In order not to nerf it but fix for other who feel it is in-balance.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004455118
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Posts: 8,000
11/05/2012 08:38 PMPosted by TruongSifu
I'm not exactly sure why it would be necessary to bring it up to the point of your test when you can read off the numbers that show up as reflected damage. It is either higher or lower, nothing can change that.


Have you done DOT to a Reflect Damage Elite? For me, I get a foutain of numbers coming out of my character so I can even tell what damage I'm taking. I just killed a Blue Group on MP7 again with no problems and no damage reflected back because it was cancelled out. There was a fountain of numbers, but I didn't kill myself in 3-4 shots. I killed them without dying and without having any damage reflected back. I can find a group of Elites with Minions and I'm sure it'll turn out with me taking massive amounts of damage from them and not the leaders because I've fought so many elites with RD before. I'll post back again, when I do, but I find it very odd that after patch 1.05 and before Hotfix 10/23/2012 that, that was not the case, but it was after Hotfix 10/23/2012.

How do you explain that? I've never had a problem with Reflect Damage when I had adequate LoH or LS. I played with no LoH before and little LoH and now conditions with Minions are the same or even worse than that.

Also 7 Sided Strike, depending on what kills I use and when I can do between 800k-2million crits per hit. It heals me from almost no health, to full health. If the damage is even 1% above of my 5.9% Life Steal shouldn't I die either instantly or after 2-3 hits. Also if it does scale to above 100% of the damage reflected back,shouldn't I die instantly every time I do 7 sided strike?

Anways the point for you is to try the again with LoH or LS, with enough armor and resist and see if you get the same results. Borrow equipment from your friends if you have to, but if you have enough Blues and Yellows shouldn't reflect anything back at you. Either way something is wrong. The minions shouldn't reflect more damage than the Yellow Leaders or the Blue packs when you have the gear with the right stats. They should either fix the minions or make it so the Yellows and the Blues also reflect massive damage back at players when they attack them too.

I'd honestly rather have them do the 1st choice though.


For the purposes of the test, i spec in such a way where i can deal consistent BIG damage (or at least non DOT damage). So in that case that would be a demon hunter with sharpshooter and use a powerful single target ability, then i check the numbers and see which number is bigger. I would say that would be a much more consistent way of looking at it.
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For the purposes of the test, i spec in such a way where i can deal consistent BIG damage (or at least non DOT damage). So in that case that would be a demon hunter with sharpshooter and use a powerful single target ability, then i check the numbers and see which number is bigger. I would say that would be a much more consistent way of looking at it.


Sharpshooter is not consistent. You have to wait for your crit hit chance to go up then get a shot in. I have a constant 46.5% crit hit chance and most of the time do 300-400k damage on a regular hit to multiple characters. I can do more damage if I use other skills, but that right there is my most constant attack that I can do one after the other without having to wait. My other main attack, which hits either a single target or a line of targets, does less damage (like 200-300k) and it still seems to take the same chunk out of health that my other attack does.

There is a reason I can't get rid of the DOT, because my weapon has bleed, but it also has the LS of 5.9% that is supposed to help with the mitigation of the damage reflected back. Also Skorn is used by a lot of players.

Get the resist, armor, DPS, LS or LOH and try again. There are people that have came to the same conclusion as me. It's a big nuisance for people that have the gear to handle it.
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LOH and LS should be given a chance to reflect life back to you.
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11/06/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Mountains
LOH and LS should be given a chance to reflect life back to you.


I actually do get life back from Blue Elite Packs and Yellow Elilte Pack Leaders that have Reflect Damage, but I actually lose life from hitting the Reflect Damage Minions.
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The need to put lifesteal on other pieces of gear for other classes besides barb.
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I'm only a lvl 42 monk in nightmare but I've noticed that same thing. I go at a yellow and I'm getting some good licks in and I run away to get room to operate and one of the little minions will come and I think this will be quick and POW he smokes me . So now it's run.. run.. run....
That's embarrassing for a melee hero
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11/06/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Clown
The need to put lifesteal on other pieces of gear for other classes besides barb.


That would be nice. You know what's really retarded? Inna's Favor(Monk Setpiece) has Barbarian stats on it(Fury reduction and so forth), but no life steal of course. That's just retarded for a Monk item to have stats for Barbs.

I'm only a lvl 42 monk in nightmare but I've noticed that same thing. I go at a yellow and I'm getting some good licks in and I run away to get room to operate and one of the little minions will come and I think this will be quick and POW he smokes me . So now it's run.. run.. run....
That's embarrassing for a melee hero


It's embarassing....it really sucks actually.
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Posts: 8,000
11/06/2012 01:51 PMPosted by TruongSifu
For the purposes of the test, i spec in such a way where i can deal consistent BIG damage (or at least non DOT damage). So in that case that would be a demon hunter with sharpshooter and use a powerful single target ability, then i check the numbers and see which number is bigger. I would say that would be a much more consistent way of looking at it.


Sharpshooter is not consistent. You have to wait for your crit hit chance to go up then get a shot in. I have a constant 46.5% crit hit chance and most of the time do 300-400k damage on a regular hit to multiple characters. I can do more damage if I use other skills, but that right there is my most constant attack that I can do one after the other without having to wait. My other main attack, which hits either a single target or a line of targets, does less damage (like 200-300k) and it still seems to take the same chunk out of health that my other attack does.

There is a reason I can't get rid of the DOT, because my weapon has bleed, but it also has the LS of 5.9% that is supposed to help with the mitigation of the damage reflected back. Also Skorn is used by a lot of players.

Get the resist, armor, DPS, LS or LOH and try again. There are people that have came to the same conclusion as me. It's a big nuisance for people that have the gear to handle it.


The idea IS to wait for a 100% crit, attack and then wait again. The larger the hit, the more apparent the difference in reflected damage will be.

What may be happening is that the yellow enemy may take less damage than the minions. Less damage = less damage reflected. With natural weapon damage range (min and max damage you can deal on a hit) it is hard to tell if yellow elites do have an innate damage reduction (hardly surprising if it should).

So far though, all enemies seem to have the same ratio of (reflected damage)/(damage dealt) within the same MP level.
Edited by Brathearon#1214 on 11/7/2012 6:08 AM PST
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Hey hey people! just an update regarding the reflect damage issue. It is indeed an imbalance to the formula. :) keep it coming blizz!

http://diablo.somepage.com/news/1422-changes-coming-to-reflects-damage
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Posts: 8,000
Hey hey people! just an update regarding the reflect damage issue. It is indeed an imbalance to the formula. :) keep it coming blizz!

http://diablo.somepage.com/news/1422-changes-coming-to-reflects-damage


The way you say that makes it seem like the formula changed, but it hasnt. This is old news though.
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Hey hey people! just an update regarding the reflect damage issue. It is indeed an imbalance to the formula. :) keep it coming blizz!

http://diablo.somepage.com/news/1422-changes-coming-to-reflects-damage


The way you say that makes it seem like the formula changed, but it hasnt. This is old news though.


It's a step towards the right direction, but nothing is final. The important thing is it is being addressed as an imbalance. I'm kind of tired of getting my buffed 2 handed 1,500 all resists getting milked by minions you know.
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