Diablo® III

The Real Problem With Reflect Damage

Posts: 8,000
11/20/2012 09:24 AMPosted by TruongSifu
Try it without lifesteal so you can more accurately read the numbers. I have never seen 2 attacks being reflected back, even with crits well over 500k (nearing 1 mill).


I did and got 2 attacks reflected back by RD Minions. I even tried it with a different weapon that put me down to 29k DPS and had 2 attacks reflected back by RD Minions. They also reflected near the same values, give or take very a small range because not every strike can be the exact same, as the Leader of the pack for 1 attack, but since 2 are reflected back the total damage is more.


Try this, put on life on hit only (no life steal) and see if you get 2 numbers per hit. You dont have to hit a reflect damage enemy

I have a theory about why RD minions reflect so much more than blues: The champion has the ability to cast spells at the rate of 3 blues, all at once. This is why they are able to spawn triple walls and like 12 frozen bombs/sentries at once. On paper they are 3x more powerful than a blue in terms of their affix output. I believe that this is being applied to RD as well, and distributed through their minions.

Basically what I am saying is that a champion reflects 3x the amount of damage as a blue, but it is distributed among his minions when they also have the RD affix. Again, just a theory.

Edit: Someone could test this by fighting a RD champion with RD minions, and a RD champion without RD minions. The champion with RD minions should reflect as much damage as a blue, but his minions will reflect much more. The champion without RD should reflect much more damage since all the RD will come from him. This would confirm my theory.


I did test it, i find that they always reflect the same % =/
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11/20/2012 11:25 AMPosted by MikeHoncho
Edit: Someone could test this by fighting a RD champion with RD minions, and a RD champion without RD minions. The champion with RD minions should reflect as much damage as a blue, but his minions will reflect much more. The champion without RD should reflect much more damage since all the RD will come from him. This would confirm my theory


Did you mean attack a Purple Named Elite or do you mean attack the Yellow Leader after you kill his minions? If it's the leader after the Minions are dead, then I have done that and still get nothing reflected back. If it's a purple, i don't know which one has the RD Affix. The only Yellow I know that had no minion was the Herald of Pestilence that was sometimes in the Fields of Misery or Craters. They gave him his minions back though. They can be pretty difficult....especially when he has a horde.
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Try this, put on life on hit only (no life steal) and see if you get 2 numbers per hit. You dont have to hit a reflect damage enemy


What? You mean if I hit for 2 numbers? I don't get 2 hits off of my 1 strike, I made sure of that before I mentioned anything about receiving 2 hits back because of course if my attack did 2 hits I should receive 2 hits back. I made sure to single out Minions so I wouldn't hit multiple minions with one strike either.

Also, forgot to mention the weapon that did drop me to 29k DPS, which should be the 3rd I used to confirm, didn't have any LoH or LS.

1st weapon, had LS of 6% and around 1700 LoH
2nd one, I really don't remember, I just grabbed some random yellow that didn't have any LoH or LS
3rd one, a very crappy blue I picked up that didn't have any LS or LoH.

I can try just a LoH weapon on RD Minions too, but I'm sure the result will be the same,me only hitting them once and them reflecting 2 back.
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Posts: 8,000
What? You mean if I hit for 2 numbers? I don't get 2 hits off of my 1 strike, I made sure of that before I mentioned anything about receiving 2 hits back because of course if my attack did 2 hits I should receive 2 hits back. I made sure to single out Minions so I wouldn't hit multiple minions with one strike either.


I'm not saying that you are actually getting 2 hits off with your 1 strike, i'm thinking that it may be a bug specific to your class or skills that count 2 hits as 1, which is why i asked you to test the life on hit thing.

EDIT: That is, there may be some skills that count as 2 strikes instead of 1. Try to write down the numbers and take the ratio of damage dealt to damage taken next reflect pack too.
Edited by Brathearon#1214 on 11/20/2012 3:05 PM PST
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mmmm...now i know why i die so fast when i am plain lazy in moving around or maybe there is some superglue we are not aware?
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11/20/2012 03:02 PMPosted by Brathearon
I'm not saying that you are actually getting 2 hits off with your 1 strike, i'm thinking that it may be a bug specific to your class or skills that count 2 hits as 1, which is why i asked you to test the life on hit thing.


Adding some stats too.

What I usually run, which is enough to handle anything up to MP8 I believe, but RD Minions. I usually do MP6 because I can kill things so much faster.
46.5% Crit Hit Chance
492% Crit Hit Damage

5120 Armor
610 All Resist
11.64% Melee Damage Reduction
32,218 Maximum Life
538 Life Per Second
5.9% Life Steal
153,504.59 Damage

Skorn
1359.9 Damage
+318 Int
Crit Hit Damage 180%
5.9% Life Steal
96.2% Bleed for 6345-12268 Damage over 5 Secs
Socketed with Radiant Start Emerald (100% Crit Hit Damage)

What I had during the test and also what I need to handle what Minions Reflect back
47% Crit Hit Chance
371% Crit Hit Damage

11.64% Melee Damage Reduction
30,062 Maximum Life
686 All Resist
5087 Armor
752 Life Per Second
5.6% Life Steal
1790 Life Per Hit
110,425.98 Damage

I'll give you the damage I did and received from Reflect Damage and you can figure out the ratio. I had to take screenshots so I could see what I did. I used...
2 Hander
1119.2 Damage
194 Dext
159 Crit Damage
+1790 LoH
+5.6% LS

I used 2 different attacks
Attack 1 = Crippling Wave;Mangle
Attack 2 = Deadly Reach;Foresight

On MP6 if that helps any.

Against a Yellow Leadeer
I did 227187 and received 1726 with attack 2 Didn't catch the + life on this one

Against his Minion
I did 38744 and received 501 and 295 with attack 2 + 2483 Life
I did 53700 and received 694 and 498 with attack 2 + Didn't catch + Life

Group 2

Leader
I did 46933 and received 368 with attack 2 Didn't catch + Life
I did 41519 and received 325 with attack 2 Didn't catch + Life
I did 72396 and received 571 with attack 1 + 816
I did 360901 and received 2827 with attack 1 +5760
I did 69454 and received either 544 or 644(Hard to tell because it was fading) with attack 1
I did 187206 and received 1465 with attack 2 +376
I did 278974 and received 2185 with attack 2 + 5022

Minion
I did 320539 and received 2511 and 3766 with attack 1 + 5308 Life
I did 165414 and received 1296 and 2203 with attack 2 +3825 Life
I did 211284 and received 2813 and 1655 can't tell which attack + 4339 Life

I can add more when I fight more.
Edited by TruongSifu#1826 on 11/21/2012 1:50 PM PST
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Posts: 8,000
In this thread http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004036888 Some people reported attacks counting as 2 attacks when it is 1.

Try using a different skill (preferably one that can ONLY hit 1 target), also, with those skills write down the healing you get from LOH or lifesteal
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11/21/2012 07:54 AMPosted by Brathearon
Try using a different skill (preferably one that can ONLY hit 1 target), also, with those skills write down the healing you get from LOH or lifesteal


All Monk Spirit Generating Skills can hit multiple targets except the first 2 strikes of Fists of Thunder, according to the descriptions.
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Posts: 8,000
Use a spirit consuming skill. I can see you have multiple characters as well, you can try using their single target skills as well.

Still, i just want to see if those skills are counted as 2 strikes instead of 1 based on if you have 2 numbers show up for life on hit. Regardless of how much damage you deal, life on hit should heal you twice if this theory is correct.
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Use a spirit consuming skill. I can see you have multiple characters as well, you can try using their single target skills as well.

Still, i just want to see if those skills are counted as 2 strikes instead of 1 based on if you have 2 numbers show up for life on hit. Regardless of how much damage you deal, life on hit should heal you twice if this theory is correct.


Ugh, too lazy now. I think I read they are in the plans of nerfing Reflect Damage anyways although I don't think it needs to be, but just fixed to the previous state of how it was before since there really weren't any major complaints till now. Oh well whatever, I can deal with it by doing my equipment switch.
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Posts: 8,000
Use a spirit consuming skill. I can see you have multiple characters as well, you can try using their single target skills as well.

Still, i just want to see if those skills are counted as 2 strikes instead of 1 based on if you have 2 numbers show up for life on hit. Regardless of how much damage you deal, life on hit should heal you twice if this theory is correct.


Ugh, too lazy now. I think I read they are in the plans of nerfing Reflect Damage anyways although I don't think it needs to be, but just fixed to the previous state of how it was before since there really weren't any major complaints till now. Oh well whatever, I can deal with it by doing my equipment switch.


Well i have seen several bugs from skills or just item stats, some of which have not been fixed yet. However, in this specific case i would completely respec/regear to do the largest single target crit attack. So i am not sure it is a bug in reflect damage, it may be a bug with the skills you are using which may have both positive and negative consequences (negative being with reflect damage).
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Well i have seen several bugs from skills or just item stats, some of which have not been fixed yet. However, in this specific case i would completely respec/regear to do the largest single target crit attack. So i am not sure it is a bug in reflect damage, it may be a bug with the skills you are using which may have both positive and negative consequences (negative being with reflect damage).


Might just be an issue with RD Minions when they are hit with skills that can either hit multiple targets or do a second hit. A DH on one of my other threads said that he was getting 2 hits with Hungering Arrow(I think 4 total since it would come back and hit the target again), and 4 hits off of one of the Elemental Arrows.

Here's what he said.
"I never really paid attention, since Gloom = reflect lul...but after reading your thread I did some testing, and I am indeed getting hit multiple times for each attack. It looks like the second one is approximately 50% of the first though, no idea why...very weird.

I thought maybe it was specific to monk, or maybe the attack you were using, or perhaps something weird with your gear, but seems to be happening on my DH as well, regardless of attack. Even when my HA pierces the same mob a second time (did all my testing with only a single mob remaining, obviously), it still happens...I get hit FOUR times. Same thing with EA...two "ticks" per ball...4 red numbers above my head.

Hope this issue gets resolved."

Here's his character.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MasterShake-1516/hero/5188156
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i thought this might be due to the fact that i am just hitting for too much dmg w/ area-effect skills but .. OP might be on to something.
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Bump here,

My barbarian can solo mp8 and yesterday was doing mp6 to farm keys/kill uber with a party. Ran into a group of yellow skeleton champion pack with reflect damage and it literally 2-3 shot me when I was just attacking one of its minion!!. I died like 5-6 times just handling one of its minion and finally I gave up and left it to my party.

I normally don't have this problem even I smash my HOTA to a group of RD minion for like 3-4 times in mp6 and It was just crazy when I coulld not even handle one minion skeleton last night

definitely something is wrong.
Edited by ArthurHTLiu#1340 on 11/24/2012 1:53 PM PST
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I confirm it's bugged - I can kill blue elites and rare elite leaders just fine, but as soon as I touch one, I repeat, one of their minions - it's instant death. Blizzard, please, look into this.
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Posts: 1,553
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If you do more of a group attack and hit all of the minions at the same time, you will die very very quickly. There is a bug and it needs to be fixed.


Okay, so let's see if I get your claim...

You hit ONE Reflect Damage mob...with LOH or LS and All Resist...you're safe.

You hit MANY Reflect Damage mobs...and you die quicker?

Umm......................duh? You needed to post that THIS is the real problem?

Seems like stone cold logic to me. I sure as shoot believe it, :-)

Update 11/19/2012

It seems that under certain conditions,(I don't know what they exactly are, but I'm meeting them) the RD Minons Reflect 2 attacks back and the Yellow Leaders only reflect 1 attack back. Give it a shot and try it out.


Listen...you can call that a bug or "certain conditions" all you want. The way I look at it is...the RD minions are there to PROTECT the yellow leader. More than likely, the leader has higher HP, does more damage, and has higher overall survivability than the minions. A yellow leader is SURROUNDED by minions to keep it safe, and if the minions' RD is stronger than that of the leader, it makes perfect sense to me, as that will doubly ensure that you are NOT getting to that leader all that easily.

Oh, and if you want to die really quickly on RD mobs...try stacking even more DPS. That'll always help, ;-)
Edited by CardinalMDM#1269 on 11/26/2012 1:47 PM PST
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Use a spirit consuming skill. I can see you have multiple characters as well, you can try using their single target skills as well


Finally got around to doing that. I used Dashing Strike;Quicksilver, but it was hard for me to time the screenshot. I think I only got 1 attack reflected back with that though...not sure, it was so hard to time the delay of the numbers coming up.

I did also do the first strike of Fist of Thunder;Lightning Flash and I was still getting 2 attacks reflected back. The first 2 Strikes are only meant to hit a single target. Maybe Primary skills are what's affected, which sucks because for Melee that's what we use the majority of the time.

Anyways, no more testing out of my build. Things took way too long to kill and finding a RD group suitable for testing took a while.
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Posts: 8,000
I'll try out primary skills, both single target and multi-target next time i get the chance.
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Posts: 8,000
Ok, so i did try it out, i find that i am still only getting 1 reflected attack back /shrug.
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12/06/2012 12:25 PMPosted by Brathearon
Ok, so i did try it out, i find that i am still only getting 1 reflected attack back /shrug.


Hmmmm, I dunno what makes it hit 2 times then. Oh well, as long as I'm watching my health I can hit a few times, back off if needed, and go in for more since Sweeping Wind is is not getting reflected back twice;it almost cancels out the RD from the minions, but at least it reduces it so I don't always get a big chunk taken out of my health. Swapping Weapons sucked, I got tired of that. haha
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