Diablo® III

A true effective DPS test(CM Wiz vs WD)

Unfortunately there are disparities like this. Playing any other spec as a wizard and watching a WD with Dan's DPS let alone mine or a Barb who's DPS skill buffs are MUCH more effective makes us cry because our skills suck except for CM/WW and are just not viable unless you massively outgear content.


So doesnt that show why blizzard needs to nerf the OP abilities, and buff the other ones?

My example of me doign MP7 uber ghom solo and hitting enrage is a good example. If i swapped to bears, i doubt that i would have problems. However I dont have a LS weapon, so I cant really do so at this point.

The point however is bears > essentially everything.

I would FAR rather see bear damage reduced and other stuff buffed, OR other stuff simply brought in line with bears (assuming bears are the standard).

Same goes for CM Wiz. If CM is the standard, give buffs to other specs so that they can compete. (IMO perma stunning is still not fair and probably wasnt intended).

I am sure many Wizards would cry if CM was nerfed. But if other specs got buffed, would they still care? (probably because perma stun is OP!)
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Same goes for CM Wiz. If CM is the standard, give buffs to other specs so that they can compete. (IMO perma stunning is still not fair and probably wasnt intended).


I don't agree bears needs to be nerfed. Just because it works does not mean it needs to be nerfed. You are using one skill as well for DPS and other skills simply for mana. CM/WW uses multiple skills all of which are for DPS production. It does not follow therefore that just because CM/WW does not DPS it must therefore need to be nerfed even taking into account the freeze. We cannot actually perma freeze bosses, the IAS required to do so is impossible to get. We stutter freeze. If we did not we would die while WD would continue to work just fine. I don't think either needs nerfed; I think the rest of our skills should be buffed to be viable alternatives instead of sucking.
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11/16/2012 07:35 AMPosted by Xarkar
Unfortunately there are disparities like this. Playing any other spec as a wizard and watching a WD with Dan's DPS let alone mine or a Barb who's DPS skill buffs are MUCH more effective makes us cry because our skills suck except for CM/WW and are just not viable unless you massively outgear content.


So doesnt that show why blizzard needs to nerf the OP abilities, and buff the other ones?

My example of me doign MP7 uber ghom solo and hitting enrage is a good example. If i swapped to bears, i doubt that i would have problems. However I dont have a LS weapon, so I cant really do so at this point.

The point however is bears > essentially everything.

I would FAR rather see bear damage reduced and other stuff buffed, OR other stuff simply brought in line with bears (assuming bears are the standard).

Same goes for CM Wiz. If CM is the standard, give buffs to other specs so that they can compete. (IMO perma stunning is still not fair and probably wasnt intended).

I am sure many Wizards would cry if CM was nerfed. But if other specs got buffed, would they still care? (probably because perma stun is OP!)


Just change to a life steal weapon (prefer 2 hand with >5% life steal), and > 800 LoH, and use acid rain when you low on health. You won't complain anything. You can tank everything without moving. Bear them to death.
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I don't agree bears needs to be nerfed. Just because it works does not mean it needs to be nerfed.


Note that i gave two options.

1. If bears = OP, nerf bears, buff others.
2. If bears = standard, then WD skills need a LOT of buffs to be competitive with bears.

We cannot actually perma freeze bosses, the IAS required to do so is impossible to get. We stutter freeze.



While i agree you do indeed shutter freeze, i think its basically fair to say if a mov is frozen 99.9% of the fight and over the course of the entier fight only hits you a few times thats essentially perma frozen.

Take a look at this video. Horrible quality, but you ge the idea. MP10 ubers, and the wiz can stand there spamming abilities and not worry about dodging anything. Do you know how much extra DPS your getting by not having to kite?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtNh6NhKPKk&feature=youtu.be

How can anyone really argue that this is not totally ridiculous? There is no way the dev intended this.

In that vid, im not even sure the wizard takes a SINGLE melee attack. Maybe he did, but its hard to tell.
THere was also no adds
Rakanoth didnt get to cast his crazy damage lightning or port sword hit.

You have to admit, whats shown in that video is completely ridiculous/OP. 100% dps uptime, next to 0 chance of dieing,

Oh and his unbuffed DPS is 159k. So its really not that far off what you guys tested.

Just to compare to my self.

I have 133k unbuffed damage, (26k less)
I have 606k EHP (he has 308). So i have basically DOUBLE his EHP
Hes sitting at 30k hp. Which I can almost gaurntee means if rakanonth was to cast his port attack it would mean insta death.

Yet this guy can do MP10 uber fight, and I struggle doing MP7.

Theres no way in hell that 26k sheet damage, would let me do what he can.

Its basically a clever use of game mechanics that likely wasnt intended. If this was WoW i can gaurantee you it would have been hotfixed after the first kill using the strat =)
Edited by Xarkar#1840 on 11/16/2012 8:27 AM PST
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Just change to a life steal weapon (prefer 2 hand with >5% life steal), and > 800 LoH, and use acid rain when you low on health. You won't complain anything. You can tank everything without moving. Bear them to death.


Thats my plan, but finding a 1385 dps 175%CD+ 300int+ 5%LS+ weapon isnt exactly cheap =)
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11/16/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Xarkar
Thats my plan, but finding a 1385 dps 175%CD+ 300int+ 5%LS+ weapon isnt exactly cheap =)


I have another CM/WW friend I helped gear so he can run the spec. His gear is bare minimum and nowhere near optimal and he will never run my dps spec because he would die. So he can keep stuff in place fairly well but to run what I'm running will cost you ALOT of gold or money. Outgearing content is not a sign of needing nerfed. On the other hand as pointed out to you you can accomplish the same thing WITHOUT needing to nova lock everything so you do not die. I fail to see how one is not OP but the other is especially given the gear required just to not get one shot since you give up so much EHP and protection to get that kind of DPS.
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it hurts people's fingers so I am not going to make him do it over and over again.



this is the reason I don't see how people play a cm wiz non stop. I would rather kill slower than a CM wiz and still be able to use my finger after playing.
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it hurts people's fingers so I am not going to make him do it over and over again.



this is the reason I don't see how people play a cm wiz non stop. I would rather kill slower than a CM wiz and still be able to use my finger after playing.


Me too, the reason I don't like to play as CM wizard is CM style is too tiring, constant mouse and keyboard clicking. WD is much more relaxed, just press down zombie bear button until enemies die, much more relaxed.
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11/16/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Teet
this is the reason I don't see how people play a cm wiz non stop. I would rather kill slower than a CM wiz and still be able to use my finger after playing.


The person who started this thread used to run a higher end Wizard. Now he runs a WD because in general Wizards suck unless you want to run CM/WW. For instance bear doc is superior to archon wizard in every way. Audi, #1 wizard in the world at one time, had such awesome gear but if a bear doc had equivalent gear they would be superior to him.

That is why CM/WW is the most common spec now, everything else sucks. So the options are reroll or run CM/WW for end game content. By suck I do not mean it is viable just not as good as CM/WW. I was perfectly happy running non-cm/ww build even if it wasn't archon, which I did for awhile pre 1.05, but the other specs simply are not viable at higher mp because we lack survivability in close range and lack cc skills to keep stuff at range consistently due to the massive # of hard counters while our skills are all on CD. Without CM the wizard would just be dead in the water.

That is why Blizzard is focusing specifically on us in 1.06. It is comical how many skills we have that are made for melee range where we die instantly unless we have perma nova and ds from CM up.
Edited by Sennin#1346 on 11/16/2012 9:41 AM PST
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That is why Blizzard is focusing specifically on us in 1.06. It is comical how many skills we have that are made for melee range where we die instantly unless we have perma nova and ds from CM up.


And if Blizzard removed bears from WD's we 90% of WDs would be lost as thats all most use =).

Also, WDs have tons of melee (PBAOE) as well and we cant sit there and perma freeze stuff.
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You don't need to. I have the particular vantage point of observing someone who was a fairly good wizard determine that WD is simply superior. They rolled WD for something different but after going back to their Wizard for something different again they pretty much made the decision they can't play it until it is fixed because the whole class is just broken. WD's are in pretty good shape right now; you have one of the best classes. Wizards are good if massively geared and playing CM/WW but that is about it.

The only reason I haven't rerolled is I never reroll in any game.
Edited by Sennin#1346 on 11/16/2012 10:17 AM PST
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Excellent tests.

I am surprised at how low the Barb was and how much trouble you were having with Ghom given the apparent OP-ness of Barbs at the moment.


Thanks.

Honestly I wasn't surprised at all, from the experience of playing a barb and play with a barb in the party.

The matter of fact is, WW barb does very little damage over paper DPS numbers.

After the controlled test, I asked my friend to test it out in his good gears.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Professor-1152/hero/5460035

Ugh.. just realized he still has the exp gears on. but anyhow, he is a 400K perma serker
With the same test, he is getting 1mil eDPS

So the multiplier is 250% paper DPS, pretty similar to what I got from my own test.

So some people see couple of videos and then declare a class/build is OP. The thing is if someone thinks a 400K DPS perma serker is easy to gear, they need to think again.

Basicly a 400K DPS perma serker = 200k bear Doc and they are equally hard to gear. Barb is arguably more expensive considering the number of active barb players.
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11/16/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Xarkar
That is why Blizzard is focusing specifically on us in 1.06. It is comical how many skills we have that are made for melee range where we die instantly unless we have perma nova and ds from CM up.


And if Blizzard removed bears from WD's we 90% of WDs would be lost as thats all most use =).

Also, WDs have tons of melee (PBAOE) as well and we cant sit there and perma freeze stuff.


i only use bears for ubers and key farming which i rarely do now since its really a waste. MP0-MP2 acid cloud is fast and efficient farming
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Also I'd like to point out, this test is based on "harder" content where monsters have massive HP and renders our most potent buffs useless.

The only buff that is viable in higher MP is soul harvest. So if I sub garg with soul harvest and play in co-op MP7 and+ then I am sure 1mil eDPS is piece of cake for a bear Doc like myself. Also the zombie dogs can be sub by slam dance which adds a lot of DPS to the entire party.

In lower MP where we can stack GI/GF/SH or stack sacrifice with cycle of life, the actual in battle eDPS is a lot higher.
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Also I'd like to point out, this test is based on "harder" content where monsters have massive HP and renders our most potent buffs useless.


Of course. In low MPs all classes can do well.

The only thing WDs really lack for low MP farming is move speed. Obviously we do have some skills with MS, but nothing like WOTB!

Gotta love doing high MP where GF (which is arguably our best DPS buff in the game) becomes 99.9% usless lol
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The only thing WDs really lack for low MP farming is move speed. Obviously we do have some skills with MS, but nothing like WOTB!


Then you are very uninformed. Angry chicken Doc and Legacy nat set DH are the two characters that move the fastest.
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Then you are very uninformed. Angry chicken Doc and Legacy nat set DH are the two characters that move the fastest.


Angry Chicken 15%
Stalker 20%
Jaunt 60%

All have CDs. Yes you can reduce CD but not 100% Gauranteed.

Barb
Sprint 40% (no cooldown)
WOTB 20% (can be maintained indefinitely)

Explain to me how we have more MS?

Yes, we CAN move fast but not as fast as a barb )

Oh and dont forget to include the fact that they dont have to stop to kill things, and WW lets them avoid mob collision.
Edited by Xarkar#1840 on 11/16/2012 11:08 AM PST
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All have CDs. Yes you can reduce CD but not 100% Gauranteed.


I may be off base here so I apologize if so since I don't know nearly as much about WD as I do about the Wizard. That said CM is not technically guaranteed though it can reduce the CD on TP>Worm Hole for the purpose of traveling. However, in practice with the right gearing it is essentially infinite teleporting across entire maps unless there are no mobs along the way. Is WD not similar in this respect? Sounds like it is if I read what you are saying and take into account Dan seems to think they are one of the fastest travelers. He generally knows what he is talking about in my experience!
Edited by Sennin#1346 on 11/16/2012 11:12 AM PST
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Let me rephrase. The highest EXP/hr is achieved by WD on this very forum, which is 80mil exp/hr. The fastest barb falls short siginificantly, if there isn't newest development that I am unaware of, it is capped at 70mil/hr for barb.
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11/16/2012 11:11 AMPosted by DanSkyWalker
Let me rephrase. The highest EXP/hr is achieved by WD on this very forum, which is 80mil exp/hr. The fastest barb falls short siginificantly, if there isn't newest development that I am unaware of, it is capped at 70mil/hr for barb.


I guess I stand corrected!
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