Diablo® III

life on kill question on weapon

Remove reduced level requirement weapons/armor from ilvl61-ilvl63 to restore some integrity of the lvl1-60 game, although most of the damage has been done. At least people will get more appropriate rolls on their ilvl equipment. Cap the max reduced level at 9 in order to keel lvl60 items out of Nightmare.

Remove Ignore Durability loss as an common affix, and give it to some legendary and set items as default. Allow a blacksmith to add this affix to equipment with 4-5 affixes.

Rig class specific weapons to always roll a main-stat and +% damage and an elemental affix if it's a 6 affix ilvl63 item.

Thorns can be changed to "Thorns and Reflect" where ranged takes a smaller percentage damage as is standard in most mobas.

Still gonna need a new server and fresh start in the end. Maybe a server that resets each 6 months and throws the old characters to the normal server. Inflation and saturation is so high, that actual items that drop in-game can't compete with what you can get from the AH with minimum effort.
Edited by Techies#1508 on 11/21/2012 4:26 AM PST
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11/20/2012 09:27 PMPosted by BurningRope


Yeah, trying to do an elegant cap by limiting which slots can have the affix causes trouble because every slot ends up with "mandatory" stats.

I understand the current intent - a cap is invisible and keeps you from being able to immediately tell if an item will help you, so caps do kinda suck.

However the slot-based capping creates its own silent problem, which is that you have to know the "mandatory" stats in each slot, and even what legendaries are available that evade the normal slot restrictions (eg that you can get movement speed bracers). You end up spending all your itemization decision time planning around what can be in what slot.

But you could imagine exposing the cap in the UI (and adding item comparison in AH) to try to make the cap visible.

Or keeping the current system and avoiding global caps, add some sort of "charm" slot which can ONLY be used to reach but not exceed the current effective cap. Charms might have "capped affixes" which would show in the UI as "Raises critical hit chance by up to 10, but not above 50" or whatever. So the idea is to use charms to "fix" your gear wherever you made sacrifices thus allowing you to use more diverse gear.

But these charms couldn't be used just to stack ridiculous stats.

Then make charms something you have to work toward like hellfire ring even could be cool. People who had a "patch up crit chance" charm would become a market for items that lacked crit chance, while those items are not good today.


I feel the resistance, IAS, DS, CB caps in D2 are what helped itemization flourish.

In D3, we're seeing far too many otherwise good items (weapons namely) be relegated to obsolete due to a lack of a singular property.

Having caps reawakens many of these dead items.


250% crit damage cap.
50% crit chance cap.
900 resistance cap.

I'm in favor of caps because it makes the game possible to balance.
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Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


Hello Lylirra,

Do you know if the D3 team has any plans for introducing entirely new affixes ? Or revamping some useless ones (all the crowd control ones are absolutely not competitive since the % are so low, single resists - there are too many of them, and their numbers are just too low, you can find other suggestions here : https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794322902 ).

Thanks for trying to keep a link between the users and the dev team.

PS : Any news about 1.0.6 ? (just giving a try here ^^)
Edited by Mist3rHyde#2460 on 11/21/2012 4:50 AM PST
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No, you don't receive a return in HP.

On a larger scale, this is something we've been talking about how to improve. We definitely realize the way Life on Kill works right now isn't very co-op friendly. When you're playing with a group of people and sharing your killing blows, the affix just doesn't have as much value as it does in solo games, and that can be a really poor user experience. We also recognize the same applies to various skills, such as the wizard's Archon ability.

We still want players to feel like they can gear/build their characters differently for solo vs. co-op, and we think there will always be some affixes and skills that are better in one mode or the other. That's not going to change. But, at the moment, the degree of advantage seems like too much of a swing (I imagine a lot of players would agree).

We've been discussing possible solutions for how we can bring LoK/Archon/etc into better balance between the two game types -- without just outright homogenizing everything -- but haven't settled on the best course of action just yet. This issue is absolutely on our radar, though, and we're certainly open to your feedback in the meantime.


while you at it take a look at thorns that properties doesnt scale at all with MP :)
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11/20/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


I always thought it would be interesting to scale it off vit as a kind of secondary stat for characters who are interested. Alternately you could lose a lame run here or there some something thorns-centric. For example, exchange Furious Charge:Stamina for a rune that adds your thorns damage to each target hit (it could be a lot if the skill crit!).
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Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)

My WD is based on thorns build and current feel very boring at higher MP and here a few reason I found.

Thorns VS reflect damage
Reflect melee damage VS reflect all kind of damage (melee, range, magic and DoT)
Damage return as fix value VS percentage from damage deal by attacker.
No critical VS Critical damage due to the damage you deal is critical.
And most annoying is you can kiss goblin good bye.

I’m not sure how but hoping you guys found a way to improve it.
Edited by Xelion#6361 on 11/21/2012 5:39 AM PST
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My WD is based on thorns build and current feel very boring at higher MP and here a few reason I found.


What do you do against enemies that refuse to do melee damage to you? Like those spear chucking demons in Act III?
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manke thorns apply to range and increase thorn value on items. I mean I personally love the crazy builds like zero zombie cooldown dogs and throw barbs. We need more incentive to use builds like this and thorns is just one of those area people really wanna do but it just needs some serious love. On a side note, reflect damage mobs need some type of aura symbol.

Has there been thought of making thorns a percentage based stat?
Edited by Fatbabydyer#1175 on 11/21/2012 7:58 AM PST
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I feel the resistance, IAS, DS, CB caps in D2 are what helped itemization flourish.

In D3, we're seeing far too many otherwise good items (weapons namely) be relegated to obsolete due to a lack of a singular property.

Having caps reawakens many of these dead items.


I do see the argument against caps though (an item can look good but not help your character).

That's why I was trying to think of solutions which maintain the current cap system (currently they cap affixes by limiting which slots can have them) but fix the problem that the current system makes many affixes mandatory for the slots that can have them. ie right now you can't "make up" missing affixes on another slot. (I think that's what you 're saying and I agree)

So one idea is some kind of special capped affix that can only make up but not increase. I'm sure there are better ideas.
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11/20/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Hebrew
Thorn should be any type of damage not just melee attacks. Shouldnt matter if you dodge it or absorb if you get hit by anything, everything around you should take your thorns damage with some affect of your crit chance crit dmg and dmg modifiers.


It shouldn't be triggered on a dodged attack as no damage was delivered. Absorbed, absolutely, the hit took place and damage was delivered, you just had something in place to mitigate the damage. When you dodge an attack, the hit doesn't take place.
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11/21/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Drayven
Thorn should be any type of damage not just melee attacks. Shouldnt matter if you dodge it or absorb if you get hit by anything, everything around you should take your thorns damage with some affect of your crit chance crit dmg and dmg modifiers.


It shouldn't be triggered on a dodged attack as no damage was delivered. Absorbed, absolutely, the hit took place and damage was delivered, you just had something in place to mitigate the damage. When you dodge an attack, the hit doesn't take place.


I agree. you have to be hit to get the affect. If thorns is treated in such a way then the amount of power it can carry can be higher. People will have to gear accordingly, more hp and all res versus avoidance.
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You need alot of Thorn damage to make thorn usefull and i mean alot specially on higher MP's. Personally i don't find it useful and its a waste of stat.
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11/21/2012 08:40 AMPosted by veightkiller
You need alot of Thorn damage to make thorn usefull and i mean alot specially on higher MP's. Personally i don't find it useful and its a waste of stat.


We are giving suggestions to make thorns better. People are aware that its a very lackluster stat in its current state.
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11/20/2012 06:09 PMPosted by Drayven


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


Turn Thorn Damage into Reflect Damage.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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11/20/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


nice news...i love thorn only i cant use it higher than mp 3 with decend dps to suppport it or failing that just die against range coz it takes so long to kill
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Life on kill is good for being ONE STAT on ONE ITEM. Say if you have like 2500-5000 or something on one piece of gear like an amulet or weapon as an extra stat that's supposedly worthless is actually somewhat of a decent deal.

compared to 1000 life on hit on about 3-5 items, adding life on kill to it on one piece of gear is actually somewhat advantageous. I'd almost say it's a better to have life on kill on one piece of gear than life regeneration on 5.
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11/20/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


Nice, I got another reply from dev! :P

Good to hear that you guys are aware of Thorn's problem.

Many people have been discussing WD's mana problem in higher MP and how WD should have "Mana on Critical" just like Wizard but I am against that idea because it will be too similar to Wizard/Barb to get resource on critical.

I like keeping classes more different and a few things that are unique to WD are: Thorn damage, Pick-up radius and Fetish pets. And sadly, all 3 scale VERY POORLY in higher MP.

Thorn you actually need to gear for it and it should be amazing if you focus on it.
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11/19/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Lylirra
if i dmg a mob but my party member kills him instead, do i get the full percent HP return, a partial return based on dmg done, or no return in HP?


No, you don't receive a return in HP.

On a larger scale, this is something we've been talking about how to improve. We definitely realize the way Life on Kill works right now isn't very co-op friendly. When you're playing with a group of people and sharing your killing blows, the affix just doesn't have as much value as it does in solo games, and that can be a really poor user experience. We also recognize the same applies to various skills, such as the wizard's Archon ability.

We still want players to feel like they can gear/build their characters differently for solo vs. co-op, and we think there will always be some affixes and skills that are better in one mode or the other. That's not going to change. But, at the moment, the degree of advantage seems like too much of a swing (I imagine a lot of players would agree).

We've been discussing possible solutions for how we can bring LoK/Archon/etc into better balance between the two game types -- without just outright homogenizing everything -- but haven't settled on the best course of action just yet. This issue is absolutely on our radar, though, and we're certainly open to your feedback in the meantime.


What's the difference between group play, and solo play with Monster Power enabled? It's functionally the same thing in terms of increased Mob HP. Solo vs. group play is a false binary-- the issue is purely one of scalability of item affixes in the face of increased monster HP.

You've already alluded to this somewhat with the potential changes to Thorns affix-- i.e. allow it to scale with damage stats. You need to find similar fixes for Archon, LoK etc. that account for scaling, regardless of solo or group play.

How about something like a Monster Power quotient? The idea here is to divide the mobs health by the quotient, and establish break-points in the mob's health that proc stuff like LoK/Archon. We already know the infrastructure for something like this exists-- boss mobs will drop health orbs at 75%, 50%, 25% etc.

To keep things simple, let's use MP10 and some made-up values. Let the Monster Power quotient equal the current monster power, so at MP 10, MP quotient = 10. Applying our quotient to a mob with one million HP would give us a value of 100k. Therefore, every 100k health we reduce from the mob, we proc our LoK value, tick of archon, tick of grave injustice etc. These allow abilities based on "proc on kill" to not be worthless as mob health scales.

Obviously, the values are made up for simplicity's sake, and also do not account for the fact that the quotient would scale linearly with monster power, while monster health actually scales at a faster rate with monster power. Addtionally, Blizzard would have to account for the interaction of MP and the group HP bonus. However, I think the basic framework makes sense.
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11/20/2012 06:09 PMPosted by Drayven
Turn Thorn Damage into Reflect Damage.


I lol'd. Then all the monsters would come here posting forum messages saying "Thorns way too OP".

Also the coding on that would be hard. eg: I hit reflects pack, damage reflects to me, triggers thorns, reflects back to pack, repeat. Everyone would be oneshotting everyone else!
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