Diablo® III

I'm sad about MP now

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11/14/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


See...I think most people want rewards that go along directly with the level of challenge. Completely warranted. If I amp up the challenge, or I ascend to higher difficulties, and I succeed, I'd want huge rewards for conquering that challenge, like a lot of people do.

Problem is, I don't think the developers want people running on MP10 just because it's easiest to get the best items there. For instance, when people complain about the drop rate, they usually tag along a suggestion "well, certain really tough elites should be guaranteed a legendary drop." Right, but see, if one person kills that elite with a literal "flawless victory," and another person breaks all their gear twice because they died 20+ times, which one deserves that reward more?

Practical example...my highest level character is my Plvl 12 Wizard. I can take him to an MP10 game right now, and he'll do miserably. He'll die over and over, repeatedly, probably on Risens and Wretched Mothers, which would be humiliating. But I can still go there at any time, and I MIGHT make some kills, even if it takes a thousand deaths first.

Not saying it was better for this, but in Diablo 2, you could get some HUGE rewards if you killed lots of enemies in Hell difficulty. Thing is, if you died repeatedly, you'd lose XP and sometimes levels, which would only make effectively running certain areas in Hell diff double and triple as hard. Thus, it encouraged people to farm and grind in areas that they could handle.

Am I saying D3 should penalize players XP for repeatedly dying in Inferno? Not necessarily. They could take away NV stacks after a certain amount of deaths, maybe. Or curse you with some kind of 10 minute MF reduction.

If they don't add more penalty, though, they should at least reward people additionally for staying alive. I really think that's key here.

TLDR: If I can't run MP10 effectively, I don't deserve huge rewards. If I've grown strong enough to run MP10 efficiently and without dying more than once or twice, then I deserve bigger, badder and stronger rewards. There ya go.
The more research I've done and information I've gathered: MP0 just seems like the best. It's the best for XP for paragon. It's the best for legendary farming. It makes me sad. Why build such a great end game system of MP (and a fun one) and not reward you really for challenging yourself.

:(


You're right. For most characters, MP0 is absolutely the best.

I can't speak for other classes, but even with amazing gear on a Demon Hunter (and we're talking 250k dps here), MP3 still seems like the ideal MP level for efficient farming (and MP2 may still be better. I'd have to test it honestly). I cannot possibly see how a DH with 250k DPS would farm MP4+ efficiently compared to other MP levels.

So you're totally right, MP4+ are pretty much there for the "challenge". Since DPS cannot possibly scale to monster hit points past MP4, it would infer that the rewards should be better.

Most of the top 100 DH's in the world have 285-350k dps (there are a few outliers of course), but even them could not efficiently farm MP4 because of how much the HP scales when you jump to MP3. Sure, they can do really well on MP4-6 or so, but it won't be efficient. If they can't be efficient at MP4+, what use is MP4 to the rest of the player base outside of challenging themselves? Nothing.

Of course, Barbs seem to have different breakpoints for efficiency, but let's not get into that....
Edited by Scala#1900 on 11/15/2012 7:30 AM PST
The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items. Different players have different play styles, though, so we added 10 power settings so you could decide what challenge level is best for you. For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


We need some incentive, just anything at all
There should be something like in D2.Some uber diablo and stuff like this...but i think there will be in the future.These ubers are not so cool.I was dealing with them for more than 10 times but on MP4-5 without dropping a plan or smthin useful.So I got bored of it and now I reduced my diablo3 playing time(because of lack of dropping).But I know its just the begining, many changes will come to lift our gaming experience and addiction.
The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items. Different players have different play styles, though, so we added 10 power settings so you could decide what challenge level is best for you. For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


On a tangential thought; I applaud you guys trying to keep it inviting for all players while giving the advanced players something to challenge themselves.

While the reward is apparently not enough for those in the higher echelons according to what I've read here, I must say that the entry rewards for MP1 and 2 are just about perfect. I have noticed the increase in reward on my 5 weak 60's (casual player) and I think any changes you make should be aimed at those who have played the game well and have ascended into the upper MPs. Thanks for your good work
11/14/2012 04:11 PMPosted by HandsomeNerd
There should be increases in the bonuses for everything with the higher level MP. MP5/6 is much MUCH more difficult than MP1, but it feels like the reward for going on that high MP isn't noticeable.


Besides XP for paragon everything is better at higher MP is it not ?. (bonus/reward wise) If you find the difficulty of MP5 too much for you than just slide it down a notch. If you don't notice the reward at higher MP than there is no point running higher MP.
Edited by BennyHill#1461 on 11/15/2012 7:36 AM PST
mp0 is not the best ;)
I like the idea of increasing the monster density for higher monster powers. Maybe you should have a monster power level and a monster density level. You can't increase the density level higher than the monster power level.

For example:

Play on MP 2 and you can have density levels of 0 (normal) up to 2(20% increase)
Play on MP 10 and you can have density levels of 0 (normal) up to 10 (100% increase)

More monsters = more items = more rewards, and the player can control their play environment even more.
11/15/2012 07:33 AMPosted by VincentLaw
I must say that the entry rewards for MP1 and 2 are just about perfect. I have noticed the increase in reward on my 5 weak 60's (casual player) and I think any changes you make should be aimed at those who have played the game well and have ascended into the upper MPs. Thanks for your good work


I don't see how you've noticed increased rewards on MP1/2 with your gear. In fact, I'd bet that if you think you found more legendaries on MP1/2, then it's a fluke. You're not even geared properly for efficient MP0 farming. You need 175k unbuffed dps to efficiently faceroll MP2, and you're not even close to that on your Demon Hunter. I'd actually recommend you go back down to MP0 and stay there until you get 150k dps.
250k dps dhs make me laugh

of course you cant farm past mp4 if 90% of your time is spent running away

now imagine 200k dps with no need to move and the ability to hit 30 mobs constantly

yea, thats a barb.

The more research I've done and information I've gathered: MP0 just seems like the best. It's the best for XP for paragon. It's the best for legendary farming. It makes me sad. Why build such a great end game system of MP (and a fun one) and not reward you really for challenging yourself.

:(


You're right. For most characters, MP0 is absolutely the best.

I can't speak for other classes, but even with amazing gear on a Demon Hunter (and we're talking 250k dps here), MP3 still seems like the ideal MP level for efficient farming (and MP2 may still be better. I'd have to test it honestly). I cannot possibly see how a DH with 250k DPS would farm MP4+ efficiently compared to other MP levels.

So you're totally right, MP4+ are pretty much there for the "challenge". Since DPS cannot possibly scale to monster hit points past MP4, it would infer that the rewards should be better.

Most of the top 100 DH's in the world have 285-350k dps (there are a few outliers of course), but even them could not efficiently farm MP4 because of how much the HP scales when you jump to MP3. Sure, they can do really well on MP4-6 or so, but it won't be efficient. If they can't be efficient at MP4+, what use is MP4 to the rest of the player base outside of challenging themselves? Nothing.

Of course, Barbs seem to have different breakpoints for efficiency, but let's not get into that....
Crossposting myself from another thread:

First thing they can do to make the higher monster powers more efficient for leveling: Increase the base experience that monsters give in addition to increasing the exp% stat of the player. If a monster's base XP is 10,000, then for every level of monster power increase that monster's base XP by 10-20% of the previous monster power.

Basic idea, assuming a monster's base exp on monster power 0 is 10,000 and scales up by 10% over the previous monster power level:

MP0: 10,000 exp
MP1: 11,000
MP2: 12,100
MP3: 13,310
MP4: 14,641
MP5: 16,106
MP6: 17,716
MP7: 19,488
MP8: 21,437
MP9: 23,581
MP10: 25,939

Doing it this way would allow the bonus XP stat to scale with each level of monster power you play. Why run MP3 for an extra 30% bonus experience when MP0 and cain's set is many times faster and easier? So much faster and easier that it more than makes up for the improved MF/GF and bonus item roll. Even with this adjustment it'd be far more efficient to farm lower monster power, but it makes farming MP>0 more tempting and rewarding.

Another suggestion I have would be to add a bonus legendary drop roll but keep it at a very low percentage, like .001% (1 in 10,000) on Monster Power 1 with an extra .001% chance for each monster power level up to .01% (1 in 1,000) in Monster Power 10.

Also, I would add a 1% chance for an item to roll twice on an affix per monster level up to a 10% chance in MP10. This chance would be applied ONCE per affix an item rolled keeping the higher of the two rolls but not changing the nature of the affix (if an affix rolled 40 vitality on mp10, there'd be a 10% chance of a re-roll for vitality and the item would be granted the higher of the two rolls). There would still be too many completely useless rare and legendary drops, but this would give a small bump to their odds of being decent to great.

I'd like to see crafting made viable through a new series of plans (dozens of new plans, several sets, and plans for gear with unique affixes like socketed shoulders, belts, and bracers) and several new jewel designs. These would require new materials that can only drop from Wardens or by salvaging hellfire rings. The plans only obtainable from the Ubers. I'd allow both to be salable on the auction house as a way to reward the effort monetarily and to grant players who don't have the time or patience for farming a means to get them as well. The chances for material, plan, and design drops would be dependent on Monster Power.

Finally, I'd like to see more incentive for regular and mini-boss fights. More incentive for progressing through an act rather than running the same efficient path over and over. I'd like to see legendary dyes be made exclusively through completing acts and killing mini-bosses and bosses. I'd also want these dyes to have various graphical effects that relate to the type of boss or act it was received from. For example, a legendary dye that's patterned after "Shadow Diablo" or a boney pattern fashioned from Leoric or a Cow or Whimsyshire-inspired dye etc. etc. This would be just for fun and obtainable from any difficulty (normal to inferno) with the chances for them to drop based on a combination of the difficulty level and monster power setting.

JFC I shouldn't take an adderall and an espresso before writing a post that'll surely see a lot of backlash (or be ignored completely, lol).
Edited by Turnbuckle#1273 on 11/15/2012 8:11 AM PST
250k dps dhs make me laugh

of course you cant farm past mp4 if 90% of your time is spent running away

now imagine 200k dps with no need to move and the ability to hit 30 mobs constantly

yea, thats a barb.


11/15/2012 07:39 AMPosted by Scala
I don't see how you've noticed increased rewards on MP1/2 with your gear. In fact, I'd bet that if you think you found more legendaries on MP1/2, then it's a fluke. You're not even geared properly for efficient MP0 farming. You need 175k unbuffed dps to efficiently faceroll MP2, and you're not even close to that on your Demon Hunter. I'd actually recommend you go back down to MP0 and stay there until you get 150k dps.


I think you guys are a little bit off on your dps calculations for mp levels.

I have only 150k dps (nats legacy tho) and I usually run Act 3 on mp3, and complete my run with minimal deaths (if any) in 75 - 90 minutes. That's clearing the keeps, hitting stone fort for the key warden, then siegebreaker, the craters and towers, cydaea, and finally azmodan.

Can easily run on mp6 with minimal deaths as well, but that run takes almost 3 hours.
I think the major problem is from testing the "rewards" you get from doing higher MP do not equal or surpass the time spent it takes to do higher MP. I'm glad blizz doesn't allow things like loot tracker but it does seem to mean we get a lot less hard-data to compare things with. From what I've read the general consensus is that people get better faster xp and items for NOT challenging themselves which I think kind of undermines MP.

What would I do to change it? I think the system is amazing it just needs to be tweaked. The rewards per Monster Level need to be greater. At least to the point that "now I am a more efficient farmer in mp7 than I was in mp6". I get rewarded for upgrading my gear and building my character to the best of my ability.

This in no way forces people out of the lower Monster Powers. This game is fun to play at lower MP too. I just don't like that moving up in MP is supposed to give rewards and in my mind (from what I've seen) it actually doesn't. The rewards are in theory but not supported by actual data. Which is why a lot of good players with 200k+ dps are running MP0 still. :(

So, basically, you just posted your feelings about Monster Power but have no actual hard data to back them up?

Here is your "actual data": http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7540457/

Blizzard provided statistical charts that detail the difference so you don't have to rely on your intuition and theories.

Thanks Blizzard!

-JJ
Edited by JimmyJames#1632 on 11/15/2012 7:50 AM PST
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MP0: 10,000 exp
MP1: 11,000
MP2: 12,100
MP3: 13,310
MP4: 14,641
MP5: 16,106
MP6: 17,716
MP7: 19,488
MP8: 21,437
MP9: 23,581
MP10: 25,939


just so you know, that is almost the exact scale that currently exists

I think you guys are a little bit off on your dps calculations for mp levels.

I have only 150k dps (nats legacy tho) and I usually run Act 3 on mp3, and complete my run with minimal deaths (if any) in 75 - 90 minutes. That's clearing the keeps, hitting stone fort for the key warden, then siegebreaker, the craters and towers, cydaea, and finally azmodan.

Can easily run on mp6 with minimal deaths as well, but that run takes almost 3 hours.


That's too long. I can run arreat core, temple of the cursed level 1, temple of the damned 1-2, arreat crater level 2, keep depths 2-3, and skycrown battlements in like 14-16 minutes on mp1. In 75-90 minute timespan, I'm going to absolutely get more drops than you even though you're running mp3. Your run is NOT efficient.
Edited by Scala#1900 on 11/15/2012 7:55 AM PST


I don't see how you've noticed increased rewards on MP1/2 with your gear. In fact, I'd bet that if you think you found more legendaries on MP1/2, then it's a fluke. You're not even geared properly for efficient MP0 farming. You need 175k unbuffed dps to efficiently faceroll MP2, and you're not even close to that on your Demon Hunter. I'd actually recommend you go back down to MP0 and stay there until you get 150k dps.


Your elitism is getting the best of you. The aim of my post was to give blizz a casual player's opinion on a change that could've easily left me behind. If my aim was to faceroll this game, like I did in D2, I would both focus on only one character and play a hell of a lot more. I do neither, because I'm a single dad working 55hrs a week on top of college full time.

If I wanted advice, I would've asked, thanks.

The irony here is that, through playing casually, I have a lot more fun than the bulk of the forum whiners, regardless of my admittedly horrible gear. My gear is 99% drops, because I don't have the time or lack of sense (rmah) to get better stuff. In the end, you neither guilt me, nor shame me in any way since this game is not my life, have a nice day ;)
JimmyJames you got it exactly right. People are just basing it on their feelings. They "feel" they don't get more drops, but hard data and a large sample base would clearly prove them wrong.

Let's also keep in mind that Blizz *CLEARLY* states they don't want MP10 to feel necessary. They want you to be able to choose your difficulty without feeling like you *have* to play a higher difficulty to get good loot. That's exactly what MP does.

Frankly, most people who called for more difficulty after Inferno nerfs said they didn't need better loot, just more challenge. Now the same people have the option to play a harder game just like they wanted, but they scoff because they aren't finding legendaries every other pack on MP10.

Boosting MP rewards makes it more and more mandatory to play higher MP levels, when I think a lot of the player base likes being able to run MP1 and still feel like they can get drops.

I run MP1 when I want to blow through content and farm XP/gold/items. When I key farm I do MP5-6 because I have a better opportunity. Same with ubers. If I had higher DPS I would farm MP2-3 instead. However, I will never expect to be able to breeze through MP10, farming as efficiently as I could in lower MP levels. That's not the point behind MP10.

To sum up, MP wasn't designed to be a system that provides you uber-loot for doing higher MP levels. It was designed to give players a difficult challenge WITHOUT making it mandatory for others who like it a bit easier. Right now I feel it does that wonderfully.

Blizzard, please don't change the MP system!
Say this again and again until resolution...

Because the reward system does not currently scale to match the challenge / time invested, there is a disconnect between wanting to be challenged and feeling unrewarded, even penalized, for playing a more challenging level. This seems counter to good game design.


For some it is items...for others it is an achievement they can splash on their banner...for me as I grind to paragon 100 it is XP.

Grinding low MP just because it is best XP/hr is boring...I fell asleep at the keyboard once. Doing multiplayer at low MP is boring because whoever is in front pops the mob and the rest just run trying to keep up. I stopped doing tempest rush build with my friends because it was tough for them to keep up ('cept that dude with the legacy Nats) The answer of dialing up the MP so everyone can participate in kills didn't seem to work for us as we found the XP/hr dropped as well.

If higher MP levels delivered greater rewards (for me XP) then I would go back to playing carefully/skillfully with my friends on higher MPs and enjoy the sense of danger/accomplishment once again.

Also...up the dial to include MP100 (like someone posted previously)

I have no incentive to farm AH for better items if my goal is Para 100 since speed runs at low MP don't require better gear. The cost/benefit tradeoff is not there for me to double or triple my investment in AH just to get a slight increase in XP/hr from higher MP. I am excited and horrified at getting to 100 - since I will likely look for something else to do with my time/money until PvP comes out. I have put a few hundred bucks into D3 to get to where I am now - another game I am playing I have two accounts and each one has over $1,500 invested in them mainly because those games have embedded in them (almost) insane challenges, in addition to PvP, there are in game battles that require near perfect gear/tactics/strategy to overcome. Based on those game forums less than 0.001% of the player base have been able to overcome them...D3 does not have a nearly impossible goal to overcome. What do Para 100 players do these days with their time and money? Monster Power should address that question as well.
mp3 or mp4 seems more efficient for xp.

mp0 doesn't even drop loot.
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