Diablo® III

I'm sad about MP now

The better gear you get, the easier the monsters become. Its there for people that want a challenge. Dont like it, then stick to the lower levels, because obviously you are not ready for the higher MP levels, even though you obviously should be able to handle the higher MPs easily.

I can do MP 8-10, but I have to do speed low mp runs for better xp/loots, even if low MP runs is boring like hell. Do not you feel something is wrong here?
Posts: 157
I only farm the higher MP lvls (MP7) for keys. Other then that its too slow and not rewarding. I agree with earlier statements regarding lowering the HP of the monters and just have larger mobs. Its very boring after a while of just hitting these guys and getting nothing in the end

Yea, I get it. You want to force players into lower MP levels.

The better gear you get, the easier the monsters become. Its there for people that want a challenge. Dont like it, then stick to the lower levels, because obviously you are not ready for the higher MP levels, even though you obviously should be able to handle the higher MPs easily.

MP10 is there for keys and organs. For people that are concerned with MP10s efficiency, I doubt survivability is of much import. The issue is not that it's challenging, but that the challenge is mostly in the form of outrageous monster HP. It's not hard to spend a minute or two to kill a group of elites, but rather it's hard to justify to anyone that it's worth spending a minute or two to kill a group of elites. And if that group has an extra health affix you could read a book in the time it takes to drop em. Exaggerating, of course. Enemies should do more damage and have less health than what they currently do as you go up the monster power chart. The rewards should also scale better to reflect the effort put in.

I want to be challenged and also feel like I have at least about as good a chance to get rewarded in the same amount of time as if I were playing on a lower difficulty. The way it is is sort of reverse progression.
Yes but with MP0 you HAVE to do Act IV pretty much much, otherwise you're ganking your item drop chances due to how the earlier inferno acts scale.

At least when you turn MP1 on, it becomes flat (and boosted). Aside from bosses sucking, I would think MP1 at least would be best?
This really seems to be a quantity vs quality argument. At lower MP you will find MORE items. At higher MP you technically will find BETTER items, but slower.

It really depends on how long it takes to find a better item (legendary, good stat rolls, etc). If it takes 30 minutes on MP0, because by luck of chance 1/1000 items you found was good; vs; if it took 30 on MP10 where you only found 100 items, but 1 was good. Same result, yet the 1/1000 was more random, you had to kill more guys to get the good drop. So its a bigger gamble. The more/faster you kill the gamble will most likely pay off.

In math terms, that .00001% chance at a legendary seems dismal, and it is for most, but if you killed 100,000 creatures, ...a few probably popped out. Now in the same time frame at MP10 you have a .000007% chance but only killed 10,000 creatures, the end result would be less.

In practice though, and the added drop bonus means the higher MP's still probably net better gear. I've seen it with my own eyes, the affixes / stats are just better rolled from higher MP levels, not necessarily useful, but seem higher, instead of 200 vitality, it might be 250vit. And people with high MF and high MP level seem to get legendaries to fall from the sky...
Day by day it is turning into a 'farmer's' game. Most threads on class forums are about 'efficient farming' or xp/hr or legendaries per hour etc. Where are the threads for the most fun builds? or most fun runs? At least for me xp/hr or loot/hr does not define 'fun'.

In that light, mp system is actually not that bad at all. Running at higher mp's may not be all that efficient but, I certainly dig those 5-10 min boss encounters where one mistake can tip the scales of the battle, where skill triumphs gear. THAT, my friends, is a 'rewarding experience'. And if a system gives you that it is not a failure at all.

Where the system fails actually, is that after so much toil, the rewards you do get do not reflect the work done appropriately. The fix for that IMHO will be to somehow let MP (preferably) or MF affect item rolls. Then you know that if you will run at higher mp's and do the effort, you will be rewarded with better items, not just more of the same crap.
Yes but with MP0 you HAVE to do Act IV pretty much much, otherwise you're ganking your item drop chances due to how the earlier inferno acts scale.

At least when you turn MP1 on, it becomes flat (and boosted). Aside from bosses sucking, I would think MP1 at least would be best?

Act 3 and Act 4 on MP0 both have mlvl 63 mobs. It's equivalent to 1.0.4.
Mp10 should be dropping ilvl62-63 only so it truly feels the hardest highest lvl. This doesn't make every player need to play mp10 it just rewards the end game players and without raining down legendaries which would obviously mess things up.

The better gear you get, the easier the monsters become. Its there for people that want a challenge. Dont like it, then stick to the lower levels, because obviously you are not ready for the higher MP levels, even though you obviously should be able to handle the higher MPs easily.

I can do MP 8-10, but I have to do speed low mp runs for better xp/loots, even if low MP runs is boring like hell. Do not you feel something is wrong here?

No, pretty much the opposite. Feels like it's working exactly the way it ought to work.

You get to choose the MP level that represents the best balance of challenge and efficiency for you.
Here's a suggestion. There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread about how to modify default values. How about tie it to gear, add extra affixes to gear that is only active at higher MP levels or can only be equipped by higher MP levels.

Maximum magic find is increased by x% (Only active MPY or higher)
Legendary Drop Rate is increased by 0.x% (Only Active MPy or higher)

This only might be ok at all MP levels.
Experience steal 0.0x% (Damage dealt returns experience) (maybe with hidden modifiers for normal/nightmare/hell/inferno)
Okay, I just looked it [The Law of Unintended Consequences] up and apparently it can be grouped into 3 rough groups.

A positive, unexpected benefit

A negative, unexpected detriment occurring in addition to the desired effect of the policy

A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended


They created the MP level to provide a challenge and didn't want to provide the best rewards at the highest MP levels otherwise players would feel that they had to play at that level.

This is the perversity. Blizzard wanted to set up the system so that people didn't feel compelled to play at the highest MP levels to get the best rewards. In working so hard to accomplish this goal--which they accomplished--they set up a system in which players feel that they have to play at the lowest level they can face-roll to get the best rewards.

That's the perversity, right there. Great, you don't have to play at a level you're not geared for to get better gear! (This was the problem at launch.) Unfortunately, you have to play at a level you completely outgear.

No one here is asking for a system in which the rewards at MP10 outpace the challenges. Everyone who is asking for change has asked for the same thing: a system in which the rewards keep pace with the challenges. I'd easily settle for something that falls behind by only a bit.

I'll give you an example. Ignore MF and NV stacks for a moment (I'll get to them later), and suppose (1) that your real DPS is around 100,000 and (2) that you can expect to see a legendary every 6 hours of combat in MP0. That's our baseline: one legendary every 6 hours of combat.

Now, let's move to MP1. Ignore the mob damage bonus, and just concentrate on mob life. To get the same number of kills you had in 6 hours of combat at MP0, you have to fight 50% longer because mob life has increased by 50%. This means that you now need 9 hours of combat, on average, to generate one legendary item. To compensate, the system gives you a 25% MF bonus, which raises your chances of finding a legendary from 100 to 125. So you will find, on average, 1.25 legendaries in 9 hours of combat, or 1 every 7.2 hours.

See what happened? The challenge went up--and the rewards went down. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any system that works like that.

Let's increases the mob health again by going to MP2. This involves another 50% increase in mob health to 225% of the MP0 value. So you now need 6 x 2.25 = 14.5 hours to find a legendary. But you get a 50% MF bonus, so you find 1.5 legendaries in 14.5 hours, or 1 every 9:40 (nine hours and forty minutes).

As you can see, it's getting worse. What can be done?

Well, the obvious approach is to scale the MF bonus with mob life. Let's just use the same MF bonuses that Blizzard gives the mobs.

At MP1, you need 9 hours to clear the same content that took 6 hours in MP0, but you find 1.5 legendaries in that time. This is the same "legendary every 6 hours" ratio you got in MP0. It's a wash.

At MP2, you need 14.5 hours to clear the same content, but you find 2.25 legendaries in that time. This is the same rate as MP0. Again, it's a wash.


Now, this system still wouldn't be completely balanced, in part because mob damage goes up and because MF from paragon and NV stacks make the problem worse, not better. For example, with five NV stacks, you have to play 31.25% longer at MP1 to get the same number of drops as you do at MP0 because you're increasing from 175% MF to 200% MF; with no stacks, you only have to play 20% longer. But I don't care if it's a little imbalanced--I just need it to not be so imbalanced that everyone who wants to farm automatically picks one level.

Which of these makes more sense to you, and which makes all MP levels the same?
  • Playing 6 hours at any MP level produces the same number of drops.
  • Playing 6 hours at a lower MP level produces more drops, encouraging players to play at the easiest level possible.

I know which one makes sense to me and everyone else here who "gets it," no matter how much you make me want to pick up the phone and order a pizza :)

Many of us pointed out this problem when it was first introduced on the PTR, and we were right. Players are, by and large, gravitating to the hardest level at which they can face-roll the game, with the sole exception of hunting keys for the Infernal Machine.

Making this change won't "make the rich get richer." It will give players equal rewards for the time they spend playing the game, not for the MP level they pick . . . which, I believe, is aligned with the spirit of Blizzard's goal in creating this system, if not the letter of it.

(BTW, on the flip side, Blizzard's higher drop rates for white mobs at higher MP levels makes higher-level play better, although not by much. This approach can be folded into the balancing of the MF rewards. The means are not important--only the ends are.)
11/14/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)

This is complete and utter nonsense when it comes to game design. Let me also point out a contradiction --- you say there are no achievements for Monster Power because you don't want the players to feel like they absolutely need to play at higher MP levels. How do you explain Hardcore achievements? Obviously the original goal of achievements at launch was to cover all aspects of the game, regardless of difficulty. So why the change in attitude? If the game philosophy has changed so that overcoming difficulty is not to be rewarded, why not remove the Hardcore achievements?
The real problem with the MP system reward is the exp/hour. MF don't make any difference at high scales, but yet it's noticiable at high mps with the yellow drops, gold is just fine, I feel like making more gold/hour at high mp, but EXP sucks!
Playing side by side with a friend doing mp0 runs he make like 3x more xp than me at mp 6. That's not fair at all.
Exp should scale at least 25% per MP not just 10.
Edited by Dinho#1985 on 11/15/2012 4:18 PM PST
I've found that doing MP2 is really fast, but MP4 doesn't take me much longer to kill champ packs, maybe 20 seconds instead of 10 seconds. So I found the reward to be much better, more experience, higher MF and GF, and higher chance of getting keys.
I pretty much only run MP4 by myself, or with my father-in-law who has 260K dps on his DH so we rock it. We've found ourselves more upgrades doing MP4 runs then MP2 runs every yielded. 3 Hours on Monday Night netted us 7 legendaries, almost 2M in gold each from drops, and I got a new Chest Piece and Necklace (feel free to look at profile).
A person who is a very high paragon who plays at MP 10 should without question be getting the very best drops, always rolling high stats, multiple affixes, sockets, crit damage-ias-CC ext. All legendarys should roll their "protected" stats without question, maybe 80% of the time.

This is whats wrong with the MP system. When its coupled with a capped MF player it doesnt deliver anything more then the same old loot that basically says efff you thanks for playing.

The carrot on a stick isnt delivering anymore. People want a tangible reward for their time spent. Fix that and the game will be better.

Diablo walks the earth would be sweet too.

This opinion would make me instantly quit the game and is extremely elitist. I'm against the entire magic find system in general, I'd be much happier if a raw 60 got the best items just as often as someone who has played for 5 years by pure drop rate.

It is elitist, and people who put in the time should be rewarded proportionately for their effort. The best stuff should be found on the hardest difficulty. I know we live in a world where no one fails a test, everyone is smart and beautiful and witty, and no one is ever picked last, but effort and skill needs to be rewarded over not playing as much and just bad players.
Im not sure what i think of this.

I always thought that the higher MP level you go, the better items you would find.

However, last night we switched back to MP 3 farming just for efficiency and we found 5 legendaries in the 1 run for A3 and some really nice barb shoulders.

So i think we are going to stick to MP 3.
ok, i know many that play Diablo don't like WoW but let me put it in these terms:

Let's roll forward 12 months and create a hypothetical scenario:

What if Tier14 content yielded the same loot as Tier16 content, but was easier and faster to clear and required lesser gear to complete. Where do you think the gaming populace would raid? Would this be good game design?

Welcome to Diablo 3 Monster Power with current scaling.

Pretty much, and when wiping for months on hardmodes wouldnt it make sense to get better loot for it?
Exponential growth of bonus Xp and MF together with increasing mob density, decreasing mob health pool, and increasing mob damage.

ps: Make mp increase mob density in other acts, ideally every dungeon in the game should compare to keep depths lvl2.
Please make it so that the rewards for farming MP5+ are actually worth the effort. Currently it's a lot more efficient to farm MP0 purely because you can tear through the content while still getting good items/XP.

Boost XP significantly as MP increases. I can farm MP5-6 with a few deaths and obviously a lot slower than MP0. Even with the inevitable slowing down of pace in higher MPs, i'd like it if it was still AT LEAST the same XP/hr as MP0, if not more.
I agree, the Monster Power system is very disappointing. I was on the PTR pre-launch and there was tons of feedback about how broken the system was and that the rewards for higher levels weren't worth the increased time required for runs. How was this never addressed and just released as-is? I would love to have something to work towards in this game, to be able to constantly work towards "defeating" higher monster levels, trying to gear up more and more. Higher MP as it stands now (with the exception of ubers of course, which once you get a decent ring there's not much point to any more) is not a reward, it is a punishment. Less XP/hr? Similar or less rares/legendaries per hour? Why would I do that to myself?

To call MP a "challenge" is about the same as if I decided to "challenge" myself by selling off all my gear and only running in items I could find for 10k on the GAH. Yes, it fits the technical definition of a challenge, but it's certainly not a rewarding one. It's one that would be a waste of time to do, and doesn't remotely fit my definition of "fun". This is what MP is, for anyone that has actually bothered to run the numbers.

I was running MP 3ish, since I can do that fairly quickly and easily, and knew that the higher levels weren't worth it, but then I noticed that scores of people, some even with 200k+ DPS, were running MP ZERO. This of course, made no sense to me, until I started doing the research and ran some tests myself and with my team. I was very disappointed to find that yes, MP 0 on Act 3 is optimal. I run it now, but it's boring as !@#$ and I have no interest in gearing up any more. :/ Sometimes I still do an Act 1 run on a higher MP just for funzies and a change of scenery, but I know I'm gimping myself rewardwise when I do.
Edited by weaselgirl#1885 on 11/15/2012 6:03 PM PST
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