Diablo® III

I'm sad about MP now

11/14/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Grimiku
What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards.


You mean like keys and organs?

fail.........
If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards.


See, this is the problem. MP7 or 8 isn't anyone's "sweet spot." And you don't want to make players feel like they need to play at a higher level? I, and tons of other people, feel like we absolutely need to play at MP 0. We don't want to, but that is where the "best rewards" are.

Blizz just seems completely clueless about how broken their system is, despite tons of people trying to tell them it is. Surely Blizz can at least look at what MP levels people are playing, and look at their gear, and figure out that maybe their system isn't working the way they want it to?
The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items. Different players have different play styles, though, so we added 10 power settings so you could decide what challenge level is best for you. For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


I know you don't want to force people who are too weak for higher MP to feel obligated to play high MP. That's fine.

However, the opposite effect is taking place. People who want to play high MP for the challenge are being forced to play low MP, because the bonuses for high MP aren't even close to making up for the discrepancy in clearing speeds. Even for the best players out there, low MP is the way to go for fast loot and exp. And we don't consider fast clearing + face rolling mobs to be fun, we just do it because we have to. What we consider fun is being constantly challenged to use strategy and quick thinking to stay alive. This is only available in high MP.

We need a way to make high MP just as rewarding as low MP. At the moment, it is far less rewarding.

One thing that might help a lot is to make the MF, GF, and EXP bonuses multiplicative, rather than additive with our base bonuses. The reason behind this is as follows. The higher MF you already have, the more marginal each MP addition bonus will become. Thus, if you're maxed (as most high paragon players are), the MP bonuses are insignificant, and the longer clearing time it forces just makes doing them a waste of time. This wouldn't be the case with multiplicative bonuses.


What you are saying makes no sense though and a lot of other people seem to be under the same impression.

You talk about people wanting to play a higher MP for the challenge but then say they don't because of the rewards.

If you want to play a higher MP for the challenge then do it and the challenge it self is the reward. You have the added benefit of getting more loot and exp but it's not the driving factor.

If you want to play simply for the rewards (like it actually sounds like you do) then play at whichever MP level is the most efficient for your self.

What a lot of people seem to be thinking is that anyone playing on a higher MP should get more rewards (XP, MF, etc) per time regardless of gear. This is completely wrong. It's not made so 10k DPS tanky characters can spend 30 minutes killing a single Elite on MP10 but then get 20 rares and a full paragon level from it to make up for the extra time.

The whole point of MP is if you are one-shotting mobs on MP1 then upping then upping it to MP2 will give you give you more rewards while taking a similar amount of time. The aim is to find the point just before it's no longer worth upping the MP level. There will come a point where the mobs are tough enough that it takes longer to kill them than the XP and MF increase is worth. This changes based on gear. The better your gear, the more MP levels you can steamroll before it starts to slow you down. It's basically a reward for being better geared.

Here is a spreadsheet that illustrates the basics. The results are not meant to be used to actually choose the MP that is best for you, simply to show (very roughly) how the scaling works.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvdMlhuVm0sgdGdpNnhHdV9LTGxnaUJ5aVdLUzlZcWc

EDIT: Yes, keys are a little broken. It should probably be a tighter range. Instead of 5% at MP0 to 100% at MP10 like it is now, maybe 25% at MP0 to 75% at MP10?
Edited by Elzilcho#1874 on 11/15/2012 6:20 PM PST
Does Blizzard still not realize that this game isn't about "challenging" ourselves? A challenge is welcome, yes, but that is NOT what makes Diablo a good game.

Diablo is about setting goals that revolve around reaching a state of efficiency in kill speed and item hunting. Diablo is about finding builds that can help you achieve this while also having the maximum amount of fun while you're at it.

Unfortunately, the current iteration of the MP system is utterly broken. The fact that there is no increased reward in comparison to the extra effort required is absolutely ridiculous. Players SHOULD be saying to themselves, "I want to get good enough gear and a sweet build that will let me farm at MP10 someday!". They shouldn't be saying, "Hey, I do 250k dps but MP0 is STILL the most efficient farm zone".

People are almost never going to choose a challenge if it means they will be much less efficient. My Barb can farm MP5-8 just fine, but would I ever do anything over MP1? Hell no.

Give players incentive to reach these difficult goals. Being able to farm on MP10 without taking 10 minutes to kill an elite or dying every minute should be considered a great accomplishment; one that comes with greater rewards for your greater effort. The rewards in MP10 are absolutely awful right now. You can farm MUCH more gold and MUCH more/better items at MP0. Why on Earth did Blizz think this was a good idea?

Achievement should be rewarded. Make it happen, Blizz.
hellfire rings are most certainly not mandatory. if it had 2mil dps proc, sure. but the odds of rolling a useful twofecta or trifecta is so astronomically low, i wouldn't even bother when for 10-50m I can get a 9%ias, 5.5% cc, 250 loh + other stats that makes it more valuable for cm/ww

as such, the rings are fine, furthermore, carry service exists. i should think its extremely trivial (less than 15-20m) to make a mp5 cmww wizard, various other budget builds also exist for other classes that allows mp5 farming.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/12o3kw/educational_monday_10m_budget_witch_doctor_mp5/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/12eint/budget_24m_cm_wizard_mp10_educational_monday/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1280wi/educational_monday_budget_20m_critical_mass/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/12poqz/a_more_budgety_budget_barb_guide/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/129zxt/i_just_made_a_cm_wizard_for_20m_gold_and_survived/

so what can be easier than that? farm your gold to 15m, that takes how long now on mp0 act3? then go ah, buy the gear, then start farming mp5 for keys. then start doing LFG for carry., you supply the machines, they supply the firepower/perma freeze.

http://www.reddit.com/r/InfernalMachine/

and the battlenet forums LookForGroup section
--

as such, there is nothing wrong with things as they are.
It's not really true.

My wizard can archon mp 2 just as fast as mp 0. Hot instantaneous laser death is still instantaneous whether it's mp 0 or 2. The elites may take slightly longer, big deal. Obviously in this case mp 2 is better.
The slightly longer part is where the time slowly stacks up and you don't realize how much MORE time it took over the course of the whole run. Let's say 1 elite pack takes you 30 seconds longer. Okay, so 2 elite packs is now 1 minute longer, 10 elite packs is now 5 minutes longer, 20 elite packs is now 10 minutes longer.

Speed of one shotting trash is also important. If you're moving over to MP2 and takes seconds longer and it's no longer instantaneous, then that will add more time to your run as well.

Meanwhile, in MP0 A3, you can retain the XP bonuses (and even MF bonuses) by simply wearing gear. The mobs are weak enough now that taking the DPS hit isn't a big deal and you can still one shot trash/elite.


As a halfway-decent archon wiz, elite mobs do not take 30 seconds longer on mp2. They do not even take '30 seconds' unless I do something very wrong. :P


Unfortunately, the current iteration of the MP system is utterly broken. The fact that there is no increased reward in comparison to the extra effort required is absolutely ridiculous. Players SHOULD be saying to themselves, "I want to get good enough gear and a sweet build that will let me farm at MP10 someday!". They shouldn't be saying, "Hey, I do 250k dps but MP0 is STILL the most efficient farm zone"..


thats the problem. you think mp10 is for 250k dps people when it is actually in fact for 740k dps people.
I feel ya.

For me, personally, I think MP2 or 3 might be the most efficient. Still, it's a damn shame that I can't play MP8-10 without thinking that I'm wasting a whole lot of time not finding things or leveling.



Exactly! MP2 and 3 is the most efficient for farming.
11/15/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Talaus
Exactly! MP2 and 3 is the most efficient for farming.
Close. But it's actually MP0.

If you have differing data for yourself I'd love to see it though. Haven't found someone yet that has *actually* found this rather than just assumed it.
Edited by weaselgirl#1885 on 11/15/2012 6:49 PM PST
They should enable mp in public games so that its not only limited to friends and solo when farming mp. its so difficult to play with people now. look for ppl -> add them - > wait for them to be online -> find new ppl. why cant it be open game mp where we can select mp lvl in public games? n maybe make it harder to lvl to p100. its not that hard to solo lvl to p100 now.
I like challenge i want to be in MP10. Howver i dont have the gear there .

Mp 6 7 is not difficult to me and i hope to get better there! Howver my logic is wrong...

From the past 2 day Boring mp 3 farm give me 300K per hour and intersting mp 6 just 200K per hour and sadly 2 set item from mp3 and 0 from mp 6....

I m not going to sell gold but saving for the "witching hour" that i never get from monster after giving me over 20 "Warmonger"
Edited by MADTHUNDER2#3452 on 11/15/2012 7:37 PM PST

In practice though, and the added drop bonus means the higher MP's still probably net better gear. I've seen it with my own eyes, the affixes / stats are just better rolled from higher MP levels, not necessarily useful, but seem higher, instead of 200 vitality, it might be 250vit. And people with high MF and high MP level seem to get legendaries to fall from the sky...


I'm sorry but this is completely false.

Affix rolls do NOT CHANGE with MP levels. You will not find higher rolled stats in MP8 compared to MP2 for example. What happened to you is pure RNG.
Edited by Alcovitch#1247 on 11/15/2012 7:44 PM PST
that sucks
The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items. Different players have different play styles, though, so we added 10 power settings so you could decide what challenge level is best for you. For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


what is the point of bonus items when its RGN???? i've found all my BEST legendarys in mp0, mp1 ... i've farmed mp8-9-10 over and over with friends and i don't get any relevant rewards. i've kill diablo several time and i get only bunch of golds.......
Who cares about this stuff, good enough quit being a bunch of babies and get these guys on the ball for PVP that's all that matters to 95% of Diablo 3 players really. No more patches that are just going to have us farming for hours and hours more we are all sick of it.
Edited by Westside#1237 on 11/15/2012 8:57 PM PST
The bonus you get for higher monster power is not good enough. If you have gear good enough to farm mp5 with good speed, there isn't enough incentive to do that compared to farming mp2 with GREAT speed.

The difference in rewards is not great enough to do it even if you can. Experience needs to scale higher with mp because of the time involved with increased hp.

I like the challenge of mp7-10, but it feels like I'm wasting time because honestly there isn't a noticeable difference with loot between mp2 to mp7. I don't get "better" items. I don't get more legendaries. I don't get more exp/hr.

It just takes longer.

MP is a good concept but the scaling of mf and exp make higher levels pointless.


I think you are missing the point. The point of MP is the extra challenge for the fun of it, not to be the most rewarding version of the game for time invested. Hence why the bonuses are not much better in higher MP levels.
11/15/2012 08:07 AMPosted by Fivealive
That's too long. I can run arreat core, temple of the cursed level 1, temple of the damned 1-2, arreat crater level 2, keep depths 2-3, and skycrown battlements in like 14-16 minutes on mp1. In 75-90 minute timespan, I'm going to absolutely get more drops than you even though you're running mp3. Your run is NOT efficient.


I will try your run on mp1 and see how fast it is. I doubt you only spend 1.5 to 2 minutes in each level, not even including the time it takes to ID items, look at them, and sell them. That run will yield you at least 2 full bags, probably 3.

So you're saying, at your best, you can clear 8 levels in 12 minutes, thats one minute and 30 seconds average each area. I think your measurements are a bit off considering the arreat craters take at least 30 seconds to vault + tactical advantage through without even killing anything.

Your run is NOT believable =)


I don't pick up most items, as they are worth nothing now.
Lol @ forcing players to do higher monster power. What is this crap logic? D2 = /players 8 was the best, PERIOD. Wasn't a problem there, everyone loved it! No one loves MP10... sorry your system is flawed.
Personally I think bumping up the +exp bonus would be a nice way to incentivize higher MP levels for stronger players. Since the hp and damage bonuses scale off of the previous amounts, perhaps all of the bonuses should scale a little faster from mp5 and beyond.
11/14/2012 05:22 PMPosted by unipolarbair
(Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)


You realize the problem that more and more people are finding with MP is just the opposite. You'd rather not force people to do high MP, but you're just forcing them to do low MP levels to be efficient in every aspect.

How would I fix it? I don't know the only thing coming to mind would be increasing the positives(xp/mf/gf) of higher MP levels


This
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