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It really depends what your farming too to be honest,
Bosses/Ubers - Liquify
Elites - Impact
Whites - Shower
Each Meteor has its advantages/disadvantages. And honestly if the difference is negligible... use the one you like. Who called Aimless a dog? Edit: Haha was me...
"Dog without a Bone" unrelenting.
Toughen up son.
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 11/15/2012 3:07 AM PST
Single target is absurd. No wonder u think it's only 10% gain. Stock SNS should win every-time over both so i dont even use meets in mp10 on singles. I dont use meteors at all at low mp like 7 cuz winding up and loss of TP is not worth it when elite die in 10-15 seconds. Where it shines is MP 10 on elites and mass crowds where it's a grind. So that's where my testing will take place.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/15/2012 3:18 AM PST
Well then it depends on how shocking aspect synergizes with Wicked Wind then.
As you both know we appear to get more damage from Shocking than we're supposed to. It has way more effect even after the proc nerf than it should.
I personally made the conclusion that it must work just like liquify then. If a wicked wind it hitting 2 targets with a tick, and that tick crits against one, but not against the other, you will still get the 12.5% chance to 'shock' both targets for 35% weapon damage, not just the target that was crit. This multiplies shocking aspects effect against champion packs by a large margin and in my mind explains the discrepancy.
If that's how it works, then it would erase much of the advantage liquify gains from multiple targets... The matrix would look like...
Liquify - 1 target - 392.31% total dps per meteor + SA (attack turn)
Liquify - 2 target - 435.44% total dps per meteor + SA
Liquify - 3 target - 458.75% total dps per meteor + SA
WW - 1 target - 330.75% total dps per WW + SA (attack turn) - 19% lower
WW - 2 target - 370.13% total dps per WW + SA - 17.5% lower
WW - 3 target - 389.81% total dps per WW + SA - 17.7% lower
So single target dps wise should be close (this is making the assumption that the ratio between wicked wind and meteors is constant in all three situations) This is probably a false assumption and the number of meteors you can cast in a 3 target situation is probably greater. I'll try to quantify that, but that'll take more than I ahve right now. I'll see if theoretical = actual today first.
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 11/15/2012 3:53 AM PST
There is a point about 6 in dot u can spam unlimited liquify and forgo WW entirely and while 123 SNSing away. So right there you're gonna hit for so much more every second and molten stacking it gets crazy. Watch my video and record HP vs time. it's over 1200%. I have not done so for molten yet. All I can do is with my stats. But I encourage u to try both in a similar situation.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/15/2012 4:19 AM PST
Does damage from -> burning ground <- stack?
I can cast Molten every 3 seconds. Then again, again...
Your calculation will work only if the damage from more meteors burning on the ground STACKs.
Does it stack?
If it does, Liquify is really more efficient for a lot of us.
Does damage from -> burning ground <- stack?
The DoTs of all meteors stack, yes.
It all depends on if the increased CM procs from liquify causes enough extra EB and shards casts as well as AP recovery to counter the huge loss of damage per attack turn. Testing now.
Yeah they stack. Real issue is how many bombs you can drop / time though, the front end damage. Cuz WW "stacks" too and you're gonna lose much of that. My contention is liquify rune allows more due to excellent procing on large crowds.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/15/2012 4:57 AM PST
Then its better also for survivability when I use Life Steal.
Molten heals in peaks when some of life is thrown out of a window becouse of health pool cap.
Peaks are less effective for Life Steal.
Edited by RobertVarga#1345 on 11/15/2012 5:12 AM PST
i did some tests myself on ghom (mp10).. i m surprised at the small difference in the times..
@ 164261.53 dps, 65.5 cc, 2.74 attack speed
(138400000/(60+44))/164261.53 = 8.1 (liquify + ww) (using macro that throws ww in and i keep meteor spammed)
(138400000/(60+48))/164261.53 = 7.8 (molten + ww) ^ same macro as above
(138400000/(60+41))/164261.53 = 8.34 (liquify + ww) - switching between ww and meteors manually (pure cm macro 231) - hitting 6-10 meteors a time, then i counted to 6 for ww and repeat - its hard to be consistent in this
(138400000/(60+45))/164261.53 = 8.0 = molten (cm macro) - switching between meteors and ww (same as above)
(138400000/(60+43))/164261.53 = 8.18 = pure sns (with cm macro) - no bubble, so with bubble potentially i can get it more i guess. or with magic weapon)
(138400000/(60+47))/164261.53 = 7.86 (liquify + ww) cm2 macro -crap (just a different macro)
(138400000/(60+44))/164261.53 = 8.1 = pure sns (cm meteor macro) (different macro)
so on 1 target it seems its just more consistent to use pure sns as u can lock better and more winds hit the target.. meteors seem to not be worth it in solo unless u can perfectly lock the target even with meteors
i couldnt survive with pure meteors even with my LS wand (i used this wand in all tests so dps is consistent )
liquify appears to be marginally better than molten against a single target
but the thing is, meteors dont shine in boss fights but rather when u need more aoe imo anws.
I also tried my build with meteors+the 486% twister, but couldnt keep alive cause of the clouds and the twisters werent giving me enough loh as they werent constantly hitting. For regular farming though, i find the latter build to be much much faster cause mobs just melt away, and theres almost always more enemies than 1, so i think it balances in favor of this build overall, even though single target dps is terrible..
i ll re-do the tests a bit later at my normal 2.53 attack speed and 1k more dps (everything else is pretty much the same).. i expect meteors to be slightly better in that case as the true dps is higher.. but we ll see
Edited by DrEgo#2112 on 11/15/2012 8:11 AM PST
Beyond the 3.0 and 3.3 breakpoints(or even 3.75), would it worth even considering meteors in place of more twisters with shocking aspect available instead? (~18 apoc, %55-%60 crit)
Only time I would be using them would be key farming at mp7-8.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 11/15/2012 7:21 AM PST
I use LL/Meteor/DS/FN/EB , and honestly I dropped cold blooded for prodigy because it makes windup insane, and I was out of ranging my frost nova for more than half my targets anyway. 18 apoc, 52% crit with pinpoint.
The thing that makes CM work is CRITS OVER TIME. With WW you have 6 seconds per cast for crits to return resources and cooldowns, with LL you have more like 2 seconds per cast. With meteor you have 1.5 delay, then 3 or 8 seconds.
Regardless of clean-room Math the real physics differences of meteors really matter - maybe even more than the proc rates or return potentials.
With WW you should be locking down most things so Liquefy is an attractive option, and of course DOT is the way to go for bosses, but if you are running for xp, nothing you run in to should be surviving long enough in one place for an 8 second DOT to matter, even elites.
Molten impact is awesome single target, but again unless they are locked down anyway, you get misses and misses pretty painful when they cost half your AP and don't return anything. Still, if you are running with EB as your main damage dealer, Meteor is just extra dps when you need it anyway, so if you don't need it to pay for anything, might as well use the biggest hitter.
So missing or not locking down in the DOT is meteor's greatest weakness, and not locking down is LL/CM build's greatest weakness. Liquefy and LL don't synergize well because of this, the 8 second DOT isn't going to help enough for total lockdown, especially if you are trying to throw out more Meteors+123 instead of constant LL+123
Shower doesn't miss as much because it covers more area. And that is almost all you need to know... So to get less misses, more average crits over time, and more versatility for XP gain LL/CM/Shower is just better.
Also with decent packs shower is self-sustaining for me once I reach windup, none of the others are.
Also try hitting the A3 keywarden or a fast leaper with anything but shower.
this just doesnt make sense.. i changed my helm to an andariels..
@ 169242.55, 64% cc, 2.89 attack speed @ 19apoc
(138400000/(60+55))/169242.55 = 7.11 (pure sns)
@ 179082.22, 64% cc, 3.06 attack speed @ 19apoc (using slowtime stretch time)
(138400000/(60+55))/179082.22 = 6.72
how can this be possible.. i did them 3 times each and the results are consistent.. it seems my latency just cant take advantage of the increased attack speed and i get worse results than with lower attack speed but slightly higher cc (@ 122ms latency atm)
apoc isnt an issue as i dont run out with pure sns like ever...
i ll try meteors next but i presume i wont be able to sustain them at 19 apoc
Edited by DrEgo#2112 on 11/15/2012 9:23 AM PST
^yep, for some reason there are certain people that get a HUGE fall off of real dps with 3.01 aps. I have no idea why. I can reproduce 8.6x multiplier against ghom (99-101 seconds, 161k dps) at 57% and 3.01. Corrected for my 4% elites that's 8.25-8.30x.
It makes absolutely no sense. I really cannot figure it out. I put massive amounts of time into it on a daily basis. There just is no explanation why some of us have success at 3.01 and some completely fail.
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 11/15/2012 8:06 AM PST
i ve done more tests with meteors
@ 169242.55, 64% cc, 2.89 attack speed @ 19apoc
(138400000/(60+49))/169242.55 7.5 (sns+liquify) (without proper spamming pattern)
(138400000/(60+47))/169242.55 7.64 (sns+ molten) alternated just for 1 meteor each cycle.. did not spam meteors..
(138400000/(60+42))/169242.55 = 8.02 (sns + liquify) using same technique as above but with liquify
it seems the technique u use makes a hell of a difference. Because i have lower apoc than usual, i was very carefull with my meteors, timed them very well.. so basically it seems that when u spam them instead of hitting ww's u actually lose dps.. it seems the ideal is to do like 1-2 every 2nd second.. i cant exaclty explain it.. i went with how it felt with my apoc.. when it was full i just clicked for a bit.. 1-2 meteors came out (sometimes 3 in arow) then back to ww.. i went back to ww be4 the meteors even hit basically.. this seems to maximized my dps..
i ll re-try with the higher cc lower attack speed using the same technique
@164261.53, 65.5, 2.74
(138400000/(60+37))/164261.53 = 8.68 (sns + liquify)
so basically spamming meteors isnt any good.. even for my high cc.. its far better to alternate.. the more cc/apoc u have the more u can spam.. but i think its more optimal to stop the meteor spamming be4 the first meteor hits.. so u get 2-3 max meteors at a time.. i think i can get it better than the above.. cause i made a small mistake in the beginning.. and i still beat my best time so far ;)
@shandlar: it must be the latency thing... the larger u have the more potential commands it misses, so u cant take advantage of that speed.. i guess this is probably the true reason they nerfed ias.. imagine how this would be with older ias values... When i m at my other house i get 40ms latency, the game feels completely different.. same gear exactly.. but i can lock 100x better.. and it feels like i m doing way more dmg..
@164261.53, 65.5, 2.59
(138400000/(60+41))/164261.53 = 8.31 (sns + liquify)
i changed my chest.. at loss of attack speed in favor of int.. i couldnt lock him down properly with this setup which is why this was slower but only slightly
it seems from these tests, the best is to stay at 2.74 attack speed and then raize cc/cd etc and not even bother with more attack speed.. doesnt seem to be worth it at all
it also seems liquify > motlen in all test cases i ve done (it would only be the opposite if u can one-shot mobs at that mp with molten vs liquify)
have to say though, at 3+ attack speed, my life never went down at all.. and i was running with 110loh lol (and 2.7 life steel :P)... but any dps sheet gains cant be used by most ppl at those speeds..
Edited by DrEgo#2112 on 11/15/2012 9:21 AM PST
Thats why I use 3.01 and plan on staying there. LoH is just retarded lol.
Last run I teleported into the middle of a Hoard + Electrify + Reflect Damage mob of skeletons and chained at full speed. I saw one green number as high as 31k, all the rest in the middle 20s. 60k+ life per second healing.
3.01 aps and 1358 LoH.
Welcome to the club Shandlar, was waiting for you to hit 3.0aps ;)
Just traded up on lacuni for a 9% pair. Now I just gotta double switch something so when i go to mempo I don't nuke my life while I wait for paragon vit. I'm so freaking lazy, I expected to be much further with paragon before this gear. Now I'm stranded 60 vit shy of where i want to be.
Purple gems are ugly =(
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