Diablo® III

Molten Impact VS Liquefy

[quote=Harrowing]..........[/quote]

holy crap ur right about meteor shower. its much more spamable than any other rune on its own. This i admit, i did not expect, even at a single target

i m going to do some more testing, but ty in advance for giving the solution to my problem

- its incredible.. it just doesnt stop going lol .. will try a boss fight later on..

i do run out of AP sometimes but its just so much more chainable with sns procs + what it does on its own tha any other rune.. there is literally no delay and it just showers

tried ghom, it doesnt work for him at 65.5 cc (to sustain it fully) . I do find it works better than liquify for sure though.. and stuff just melts much faster (this is without ww as the proc engine)

so mp10 ghom
@ 164261.53, 2.74 attack speed (with astral presense instead of confag)
1min 38s
(138400000/(60+38))/164261.523 = 8.59x

i was switching to ww when my life started to go down because the loh effects of meteors dont seem as strong and LS isnt constant enough to sustain my life if i just spam meteors.. they do run out of juice eventually but it feeels like i can spam them for at least 6s in a row

it still seems though that even with less meteors, its slightly more efficient to use liquify along with ww on a single target (i had a higher x with liquify AND i did not execute it perfectly then - i think i can do it better than that)

Edit: after further testing.. even with scoundrel @68.5, 2.67, i cant perma frost even 3 elites together :(

it seems liquify beats in that department.. even though its less fast meteors, it seems to do more dmg overall to single targets (as u rarely get 4 hits as u claim unless its a very large single target) and it seems much more precise with liquify as u r in control of the aiming rather than randomness. I die much less with liquify even though it doesnt come out at my full attack speed. Does the fire left by shower not proc LOH/CM ? that would explain what i m seeing. although its more attacks, ap regeneration seems better, it just doesnt work with loh/cm that well. I did replace ww with magic weapon - blood magic but on reflects even with my 2.7% life leech wand (at 180ish k dps) i still cant survive reflects. these are prefectly fine with the same setup and liquify

Edit2: i re-tried meteor shower.. it seems i m correct about cm/loh effects. They are much much lower than liquify.. my cooldowns are simply not refreshed as fast. the only reason it seems i can spam more meteors with shower is because apoc return is smoother.. ie the meteors hit at slightly different times and not at once, which means i get apoc back at a smoother rate. it seems every 2 i hit (along with shards or explosive procs) i can spam another meteor if they both crit, which makes it appear like im getting more apoc, but i dont think i m getting more, its just smoother and spread out in time which allows better spamming.. but it doesnt proc cm as much as liquify and cant benefit from good aiming/micro as much as liquify can. so u gain in amount of meteors spammed, but u lose diamond skin uptime (And shards dmg) and also nova rate is seriously lowered which means i cant even perma freeze 3 elites together with this - if i dont get a good lock at the start and arent lucky with where the hits strike etc. Have to say though, it looks soooooooo cool :) . Maybe it ll be a nice build to use with another wiz if he can perma freeze for me and me provide the dps. But then again, these crit 1/3 the amount of liquify it seems (just roughly putting out the ratio) and does no dmg in time (like liquify does with the 8s) when i have very small downtimes in spamming it. seems worse overall for both farming and boss fighting

having said that i m enjoying it much more than liquify if not for anything else, for its visual appeal so i ll continue using it.

edit3 : a bit of a rant

all this testing just proves to me how broken our class really is. I leveled up a DH recently and only used self-found gear that wasn't selling in AH (very mediocre gear overall). they have a passive that increases their discipline on critical hits - pretty much similar to our cm. with 50ish buffed cc on him, i can refill it with 1 use of 1 skill on 2+ mobs .... which pretty much resets all their defenses.. that coupled with the fact that the 120k buffed DH does more dmg in single hits than my 207k wiz, proves how broken we are proc wise :/
Edited by DrEgo#2112 on 11/16/2012 3:24 AM PST
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Aimless proved to me first hand and made me a believer. Liquify rules all.
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Wheres you impact test.

Start fight get up 6 twisters

3-5secs of Impact
3-5secs of twister

This is using SNS-Impact(instead of tele)
Cm/CM/Conflag

People are getting tunnel visioned and spam too many meteors to test ths properly. I just did further testing and the best in order for me still is Impact/Liquify then Shower. Shower rocks for packs. Sux on Gold elites when adds are dead.

Don't get me wrong Liquify is very good if not comparable to Impact. But with my rotation Impact wins for overall Dps.

In process of trying SNS with Glass Cannon and Blood magic(instead of Teleport). Tests look Good. When I upgrade my Amulet I plan on dropping Shocking Aspect and replacing it with Blood weapon.(Fix any Refect issue with 420CD). If that doesn't work I'll drop Teleport for Blood weapon and Shocking Aspect for Pinpoint.

Edit: This is all for MP10... SNS basic is best for anything below when your dps gets over 175k
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 11/16/2012 1:54 AM PST
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@Aphraell: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7006348248?page=3#55

i did test impact yeasterday along with twisters.. liquify is still better by quite a big margin for my cc/attack speed. Refer to linked post for details. The best i could get was with liquify and i did not execute it perfectly. i reckon i can shave of 1-2 seconds from that for an even greater difference. (for consistency of the tests i never winded up which would improve the results slightly. i just used my spam button and kept the left mouse clicked - and in the tests where i alternated - i explained how i did this)

i m presuming that there is a cc breakpoint where for the same dps, u would get more from impact vs liquify. at my cc this just isnt the case
Edited by DrEgo#2112 on 11/16/2012 3:15 AM PST
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Had a read, some nice solid testing there. :)

"it seems the technique u use makes a hell of a difference." You hit the nail on the head there.

In the end play whats suits you best. I've hit a dps level now where I'm not using meteors now anyway and just pure SNS.. its smoother. But thats also because I changed weapons and only have 19 apoc. Meteors suck with 19 compared to 30.. so much smoother.

So... OP Both are good :)
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yeap ;)

i think i m in love with shower. its less dmg for me overall, packs die a tad slower as well, but its a much more relaxing playstyle as i dont need to aim perfectly to maximize my dps output, its great for when u r tired and just want to farm a bit

this is what i m using:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PSXYhT!XgW!bcccac
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11/15/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Shaggy
Dude, everything in the entire game ticks twice per second. That's why RoF does half damage, Life per second displays half your number as healing, etc etc.


11/15/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Shaggy
Notice Wicked Wind... not on my list.


Oh, excuse me. I didn't know we went from "everything" to "everything on my list".
Now let me ask, how do you determine the skills that go on your list? Did you test this? Did you see someone else test this?
I'd really like to know how you come to the conclusions you are presenting here.

@Harrowing:
To be even more specific I tested the proc rate of shocking aspect with each dot rune and found that irregardless of crit rate (51%) what directly affected my procs was aps which to confrim has two set varible's 1.78 aps and 2.42 aps. The proc's for SA with Wicked Wind proc's exactly the same as a meteor spell given same aps and crit rate for each.

That I find very odd. The behaviour you describe is entirely different to what you can observe with LoH tests. So if you are right, there's something strange going on with SA.
Also, you just proposed a third opinion to Shaggy's and my argument.
I say Meteor dot ticks once per second, he says twice per second, you say it ticks at ~2*aps.
Edited by apo#2677 on 11/16/2012 8:46 AM PST
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That I find very odd. The behaviour you describe is entirely different to what you can observe with LoH tests. So if you are right, there's something strange going on with SA.
Also, you just proposed a third opinion to Shaggy's and my argument.
I say Meteor dot ticks once per second, he says twice per second, you say it ticks at ~2*aps


It's fairly easy to test for, use the same exact Aps and crit rate then test the number of displayed Shocking aspect hits that proc off of each spell with the same proc rate (in this case I was using as a comparison WW vs Molten impact). I frap'ed each run with ghom went back and watched and counted the number of SA procs (in very slow motion)
With WW SA happened
187 times over 109 casts; @ 1.78 Aps
192 times over 108 casts; @ 1.78
204 times over 117 casts; @1.78
196 times over 112 casts; @ 1.78
^^
Not empircal I know for a statistical analysis, but with over 800+ instances of being able to generate a proc (.125 chance) of SA good enough to draw a broad conclusion.
Molten impact @ 1.78 aps
19 times over 12 casts; happened twice
19 times over 11 casts; happened 3 times
17 times over 10 casts;
16 times over 8 casts; happened 7 times
19 times over 10 casts; happened 4 times
20 times over 12 casts
7 times over 4 casts; happened 14 times
9 times over 5 casts; happened 16 times
10 times over 5 casts; happened 15 times
11 times over 5 casts happened 11 times
13 times over 6 casts; happened 4 times
12 times over 6 casts; happened 5 times
11 times over 6 casts; happened 9 times
^^
Again not a large enough pool for statistical analysis, but large enough to draw a broad conclusion, both the ratio's are all within the same amount of proc's per cast. Molten impact's ratio is slightly higher. I assume this is because besides its dot it also gets an initial proc for each activation of the skill.

Some people confuse the damage displayed with what the game is doing.
ALL loh is summed for the 0.5 duration then displayed and applied, so it happens twice per second, but having a higher attack speed affects how many times you can proc loh during that interval. It can be confusing for some I know.

I as well don't understand the disconnect between SA proc's and LOH returns apo, other than breaking open the game code I don't think we will ever read what is truely going on. Also only 2 things affect SA proc's critical hit chance *proc rate of skill + aps.
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Edit2: i re-tried meteor shower.. it seems i m correct about cm/loh effects. They are much much lower than liquify.. my cooldowns are simply not refreshed as fast. the only reason it seems i can spam more meteors with shower is because apoc return is smoother.. ie the meteors hit at slightly different times and not at once, which means i get apoc back at a smoother rate. it seems every 2 i hit (along with shards or explosive procs) i can spam another meteor if they both crit, which makes it appear like im getting more apoc, but i dont think i m getting more, its just smoother and spread out in time which allows better spamming..


There is a really good reason for this, in Any fight where your facing more that 1 target in the damage radius of meteor shower you can land multiple hits from the same strike. Say for instance a nice group of 5 tightly packed monsters. Liquefy always hits 5 if placed properly in the center, Meteor shower by contrast can hit somewhere between 10 times to 60 times per cast. (each impact can proc and each impact hits multiple targets.) This means a lot of things.

#1 as stated several times meteor shower is best at groups of 5 or more (i.e. packs of whites)
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 11/16/2012 12:51 PM PST
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I sorry guys have not updated my testing yet. Have not even been online in like 24 hrs cuz my mom is sweating me about too much game. This weekend things open up. Or I'll just go to my brothers apt and play there. But ill make these video eitherway showing liquefy ownage.
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11/16/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Harrowing
It's fairly easy to test for, use the same exact Aps and crit rate then test the number of displayed Shocking aspect hits that proc off of each spell with the same proc rate (in this case I was using as a comparison WW vs Molten impact). I frap'ed each run with ghom went back and watched and counted the number of SA procs (in very slow motion)

I can't login right now and see for myself, so just for my understanding: With the new Storm Armor hitting stuff on it's own, are you able to distinguish Storm Armor and Shocking Aspect hits?
Did you just chain cast and stack meteors or did you look at individual casts?


Some people confuse the damage displayed with what the game is doing.
ALL loh is summed for the 0.5 duration then displayed and applied, so it happens twice per second, but having a higher attack speed affects how many times you can proc loh during that interval. It can be confusing for some I know.

Not always. During our Wicked Wind breakpoint testing I found LoH was summed up to anywhere between 8 to 12 display ticks (over the same 6 second duration), depending on aps.


I as well don't understand the disconnect between SA proc's and LOH returns apo, other than breaking open the game code I don't think we will ever read what is truely going on. Also only 2 things affect SA proc's critical hit chance *proc rate of skill + aps.

Your results really confuse me. If there is no mistake in your test setup (and right now I can't find one), this means Shocking Aspect (and possibly also APoC, CM?) acts fundamentally different than LoH.
For LoH, Meteor definitely ticks once per second plus once at impact. I don't have the slightest doubt about that. This is easily verifiable by using a set amount of LoH and altering your attack speed. You will always see one healing display tick at 0.25*LoH (impact+first tick) and two at 0.125*LoH (ticks two and three). And that by the way is how we found all proc coefficients and attack speed scaling mechanisms so far. So if the LoH test gives wrong results, everything is wrong.
This is really hurting my brain. I will have to reproduce this.

[edit]Sorry, but there's something really strange going on. Your testing shows roughly the same amount of procs per cast? This can't be right. WW has double the duration of the meteor DoT. At 1.78 aps, we look at 23 total ticks per twister. While Meteor, even with the same progression mechanics would be at 12 ticks + impact.
Edited by apo#2677 on 11/16/2012 2:23 PM PST
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seeing as i cant find an answer to this. what procs critical mass better? molten impact or liquify. i am NOT using wicked wind. i want to know purely based on meteor alone.
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11/16/2012 02:52 PMPosted by SwiftKitten
seeing as i cant find an answer to this. what procs critical mass better? molten impact or liquify. i am NOT using wicked wind. i want to know purely based on meteor alone.


Liquify hands down wins this. It has more dots with each being able to proc LoH,Apoc and CM.
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liquefy, cause if it crits it lasts for 8 seconds, those extra 5 seconds mean better cooldowns and and apoc returns
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I can't login right now and see for myself, so just for my understanding: With the new Storm Armor hitting stuff on it's own, are you able to distinguish Storm Armor and Shocking Aspect hits?
Did you just chain cast and stack meteors or did you look at individual casts?


Yeah, the storm armor strike (100% weapon damage) looks purple like and looks like a lighting bolt. The SA proc looks like a shock pulse bolt cut in half. (the shock surrounds the target in both cases.)

11/16/2012 02:16 PMPosted by apo
Not always. During our Wicked Wind breakpoint testing I found LoH was summed up to anywhere between 8 to 12 display ticks (over the same 6 second duration), depending on aps.


LOH is always summed at the 0.5 second intervals. I.e. each hit rendered has its LOH * proc rate * aps of the skill. It truely is simple can can be easily quantified (explained). Different things may happen during that 0.5 second interval that can affect loh returns.

11/16/2012 02:16 PMPosted by apo
Your results really confuse me. If there is no mistake in your test setup (and right now I can't find one), this means Shocking Aspect (and possibly also APoC, CM?) acts fundamentally different than LoH.


I am confused myself, over what is directly happening with SA and proc's. Meteor (molten impact) by all rights should be actually far less per attack turn, because ww lasts 6 seconds while meteor would get 1 chance+ 3 second dot.<--- vastly different, yet results yield almost the exact same ratio for proc on SA.

Secondly I know for a fact Apoc is directly affected by proc rate. Otherwise @ 27 apoc I would instantly fill a depleted pool with 1 cast of living lighting based off the number of crits i get. Yet LL slowly fills my gauge where ww/meteor are very spikey. Some skills are vastly better than other's at arcane dynamo build-up even when you take proc rate into effect... I.e. LL just plain owns everything else at dynamo build up. Something internal is definately going on.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDyX8GbXtr8&feature=channel&list=UL

After seeing so much talk about this, I decided to see what meteors were all about. I used the gear in my profile +inna pants. Did it on MP10, and I know, I need more armor.

Results didn't seem a vast improvement over just spamming normal rotation...I couldn't get out many meteors while still casting chain reaction so I had to pause it for a bit.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 11/16/2012 4:20 PM PST
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Aph can u test something for me?

u can get 60 crit and -5 oculous and 30 apoc.. i cant

and see if you can spam unlimited with this build?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PgXYhT!egW!cZcccc

I mean cast a couple meets and spam away 123 and while raining meteors under time warp.

I want to build this build cuz I think it will be ultimate in CM spec....sheet DPS multipler like 20x...if you can spam.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/16/2012 7:13 PM PST
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Unless I rebuy a Chand Will I cant. Went to Sloraks for overall dps improvement.

Wait until you see my profile update :) at 197k now. new Ammy
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 11/16/2012 7:14 PM PST
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So wait with like 1500 loh you still have to use BM?
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LOH is always summed at the 0.5 second intervals. I.e. each hit rendered has its LOH * proc rate * aps of the skill. It truely is simple can can be easily quantified (explained). Different things may happen during that 0.5 second interval that can affect loh returns.

Sorry, but no, it's not.
I have tested WW with exactly 400 LoH and almost a hundred different attack speed values.
And for each of them, the healing display occurs up to twice per second.
For example at 1.0 aps we have 12 ticks and the display is 12 times 50 life. But at 1.0710 aps, we have 13 ticks and the display shows 6 times 100 life plus 50 life.
12 ticks -> 12 display ticks -> 0.5 seconds intervals
13 ticks -> 7 display ticks -> 0.86 seconds intervals
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