Diablo® III

Molten Impact VS Liquefy

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apo, find that hard to believe because when i was running my 2.7 aps build i still saw 2 health returns per second and if the difference between 1.0 aps and 1.07 aps was that great then people with aps 2.5+ would be seeing crazy fast ticks on health returns. so yeh im gonna have to say this...

LOH is always summed at the 0.5 second intervals. I.e. each hit rendered has its LOH * proc rate * aps of the skill. It truely is simple can can be easily quantified (explained). Different things may happen during that 0.5 second interval that can affect loh returns.


...is more acurate
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Well, but it's not. If you're interested, here's my raw WW testing data:
aps #ticks LoH
0.63 8 8x50
0.66 8 8x50
0.6615 8 8x50
0.6678 9 9x50
0.6700 9 9x50
0.7100 9 9x50
0.7242 9 9x50
0.7384 9 9x50
0.7455 9 9x50
0.7497 9 9x50
0.7504 10 10x50
0.7526 10 10x50
0.7600 10 10x50
0.8100 10 10x50
0.8262 10 10x50
0.8300 10 10x50
0.8375 11 11x50
0.8424 11 11x50
0.8586 11 11x50
0.9000 11 11x50
0.9044 11 11x50
0.9088 11 11x50
0.9159 12 12x50
0.9180 12 12x50
1.0000 12 12x50
1.0044 13 650
1.0125 13 650
1.0710 13 6x100+1x50
1.0716 14 7x100
1.0773 14 7x100
1.0800 14 7x100
1.1000 14 7x100
1.1500 14 7x100
1.1600 15 7x100+1x50
1.2000 15 7x100+1x50
1.2500 15 7x100+1x50
1.2600 16 8x100
1.3000 16 8x100
1.3080 17 8x100+1x50
1.3200 17 8x100+1x50
1.3260 17 8x100+1x50
1.3520 17 8x100+1x50
1.3650 18 9x100
1.3780 18 9x100
1.3910 18 9x100
1.4000 18 9x100
1.5000 18 9x100
1.5080 19 9x100+1x50
1.5120 19 9x100+1x50
1.5600 19 9x100+1x50
1.5750 19 9x100+1x50
1.5820 20 10x100
1.5900 20 10x100
1.5960 20 10x100
1.6650 20 10x100
1.6660 20 10x100
1.6830 22 11x100
1.6993 22 11x100
1.7326 22 11x100
1.7493 22 11x100
1.7556 22 11x100
1.7660 23 11x100+1x50
1.7700 23 11x100+1x50
1.7901 23 11x100+1x50
1.8252 23 11x100+1x50
1.8428 23 11x100+1x50
1.8603 23 11x100+1x50
1.8779 24 12x100
1.9050 24 12x100
1.9980 24 12x100
2.0007 26 8x150+1x100
2.0147 26 8x150+1x100
2.1236 26 8x150+1x100
2.1411 26 8x150+1x100
2.1587 28 9x150+1x50
2.1938 28 9x150+1x50
2.2815 28 9x150+1x50
2.2991 28 8x150+2x100
2.3166 30 10x150
2.3265 30 10x150
2.3430 30 10x150
2.3595 30 10x150
2.3718 30 10x150
2.3868 30 10x150
2.4426 30 10x150
2.4921 30 10x150
2.4957 30 10x150

Attack speed - Number of ticks - healing display ticks.
All tests with 6 seconds duration and 400 LoH.
[edit] For the two that say "650", I found random numbers of randomly ordered ticks of 50 and 100, always adding up to 650. This is probably also the case for other aps values, I just didn't try most of them more then once.

The display is definitely not fixed at 0.5 sec intervals.

I just never bothered to explore this any further, because it has no practical impact whatsoever. This doesn't affect actual life returns, nor the number of ticks, nor anything else. It's just a matter of how things get displayed.
Edited by apo#2677 on 11/17/2012 8:43 AM PST
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11/17/2012 08:41 AMPosted by apo
just never bothered to explore this any further, because it has no practical impact whatsoever. This doesn't affect actual life returns, nor the number of ticks, nor anything else. It's just a matter of how things get displayed.


truth.

How are you running all these tests anyway?

Like how is everyone keeping counts of such figures IE number of ticks and how many times SA triggers and all that stuff? Simply counting or something else to count for you?
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11/17/2012 10:03 AMPosted by aceD
just never bothered to explore this any further, because it has no practical impact whatsoever. This doesn't affect actual life returns, nor the number of ticks, nor anything else. It's just a matter of how things get displayed.


truth.

How are you running all these tests anyway?

Like how is everyone keeping counts of such figures IE number of ticks and how many times SA triggers and all that stuff? Simply counting or something else to count for you?

Those numbers above are from the Wicked Wind tests that ultimately led to this post: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641
As we didn't have the algorithm yet, my aim at the time was to find out the number of ticks per twister. I never wanted to explore the mechanics of how life return gets summed up. It's just that LoH appeared to be the easiest test for tick frequency.
We knew the per-tick LoH value was 0.125, so I just got me a 400 LoH amulet (-> one tick = 50 life) and an inventory full of stuff to cover as many attack speed scenarios as possible.
As you can see above, there were never more than 12 LoH display ticks over 6 seconds. So it was easy to add them all up and divide by 50 to get the number of actual ticks as presented in column 2.
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im thinking my fundamental understanding of what a "tick" is might be wrong here, which could be causing some confusion.
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I know molten impact and liquefy both have molten damage. However, is liquefy molten damge as fire or arcane? (I have all buffs to fire and try to figure out which one gives me more damage)
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11/17/2012 01:56 PMPosted by aceD
im thinking my fundamental understanding of what a "tick" is might be wrong here, which could be causing some confusion.

What's confusing is that I don't know a better word to describe the green numbers popping up when you get healed. I always try to refer to those as "display ticks" or something like that.

A "normal" tick is just a distinct hit during a damage-over-time effect or channeling attack.
The number and frequency of those matters for on-hit procs. And they have no relation whatsoever to the life return "ticks" you can see on your screen.
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So there are two types of "ticks"

We cant see the important ones that proc things like CM and what not.

We can see the green/red "display ticks" seemingly falling from our toons heads that are actually irrelevant, just nice to watch.

So when people normally refer to ticks they are referring to the proc-ing type ticks.

^^If im correct.....this bring me back to my last question

How are people calculating/counting how many ACTUAL ticks are taking place?

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ps. thx for answering all my silly questions, im an abecedarian to the diablo community (and the MMO community as a whole TBH) and still trying very hard to learn all the lingo and abbreviation. Im much more familiar with trolling mountain biking forums :)
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How are people calculating/counting how many ACTUAL ticks are taking place?

Life on hit works best for that.
If you know nothing about a spell, you first need to find out how much life you will gain from one tick. This is essentially your total LoH multiplied by the proc coefficient of the spell. There are lists for the proc coefficiencts of every spell, but if you want to find out yourself, just apply the dot effect to a monster that dies after one tick (i.e. act1 normal zombie).
For example if you do this with 400 LoH and Wicked Wind, you will see 50 life popping up.
50/400 = 0.125 = proc coefficient of WW.

So now you know one tick gives you 50 life. If you want to know how many ticks one twister has, you need a more durable monster. One that won't die before the full duration of WW has ended.
Now you apply the spell to this one and for example at 2 attacks per second, you will see twelve green 100s popping up on your screen. That means your total life return was 12*100 = 1200.
Divided by the life value a single tick gives you, that means the full 6 seconds twister had 1200/50 = 24 ticks.

And that's it :)
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Here is my problem with Liquify and perhaps I am not reading it correctly:

Here is my setup:

- Meteor cost reduced by 8
- AP on Crit = 30
- Power of Storm ACTIVE (3 less AP per)
- Prism ACTIVE (7 less AP per)

After my first LIQUIFY meteor (at the cost of 32), shouldn't my subsequent LIQUIFY meteors effectively be costing me 2 AP per cast?

** I understand that the APoC resolves AFTER the casting, but it essentially replenishes my AP prior to the next casting.

- Initial cost = (50)
- Equip -8 Meteor (42)
- PoS -3 (39)
- Prism -7 (32)
- AP on Crit = 30 (2)

Shouldn't I be able to cast Liquify in perpetuity (as long as Prisim remains up) with an AP supply of 150+?? Even without Prism, I should be able to spam off 15 meteors me thinks!

Please help me with what I am missing
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You're missing the proc rate of Meteor. You may crit say 50% of the time (if you have 50%cc), but you'll only register a few of these critical hits. And that's cuz a lot of skills reduce the number of registered hits by the skill's proc rate. Some skill have a proc rate of 1 (like Magic Missle) and so you always register a hit, but I believe Meteor's Proc Rate is 0.1025. So you're only registering 10% of your critical hits. Pretty crappy huh that they don't advertise proc rates! This is why it's so hard to spam meteor.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 12/5/2012 2:58 PM PST
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12/05/2012 02:57 PMPosted by TekkZero
You're missing the proc rate of Meteor. You may crit say 50% of the time (if you have 50%cc), but you'll only register a few of these critical hits. And that's cuz a lot of skills reduce the number of registered hits by the skill's proc rate. Some skill have a proc rate of 1 (like Magic Missle) and so you always register a hit, but I believe Meteor's Proc Rate is 0.1025. So you're only registering 10% of your critical hits. Pretty crappy huh that they don't advertise proc rates! This is why it's so hard to spam meteor.


He has another problem too he has good Apoc on (29 total by my count), but only 30% crit chance unbuffed?

By comparison I can sustain many many more casts because when I run meteor spec I have a much higher crit chance. He needs to spend some serious time trying gear for better crit chance.
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Absolutely, I hear ya man. I didn't look at his profile and was using 50%cc as a comparison. :) You can definitely spam Meteor with more cc, especially Star Pact on 1-2 targets. I've done it pretty nicely with 2.73aps/50-55%cc/29APoC/16-19 Meteor Reduction. It still stinks unfortunately compared to combining Meteor+Wicked Wind together as you still run out of steam on single targets. And that kinda sucks cuz it'd be nice to use a different skill than Energy Twister. Heaven help us if we get nerfed yet again with Energy Twister...
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Have you tried meteor shower? I like that i have 7 meteors that each deals 100+% weapon damage. Give it a try.
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I'm not fond of Meteor Shower personally (and yes I've tried it :). It's great for trash mobs, but I prefer other runes for when the monster density is lower (so largely Liquefy and Star Pact for mass spamming, or even Molten Impact). For me it's less about the damage, especially AOE, and more about getting enough reliable procs. And that means I'm mostly worried about situations where I don't have many monsters around, such as fighting the wardens/ubers ot a rare monster after most of his followers are dead.

EDIT: Though I'm slightly singing a different tune, since tonight I've finally been able to gear myself to get an okay 2 target freezing regime working with Liquefy (no wicked wind supplementing). And it's actually functional for freezing the ubers. It's not great, but it's not as horrible as I feared it might be. That definitely makes me feel a tad better about any potential nerf to energy twister. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 12/5/2012 9:47 PM PST
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12/05/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Harrowing
You're missing the proc rate of Meteor. You may crit say 50% of the time (if you have 50%cc), but you'll only register a few of these critical hits. And that's cuz a lot of skills reduce the number of registered hits by the skill's proc rate. Some skill have a proc rate of 1 (like Magic Missle) and so you always register a hit, but I believe Meteor's Proc Rate is 0.1025. So you're only registering 10% of your critical hits. Pretty crappy huh that they don't advertise proc rates! This is why it's so hard to spam meteor.


He has another problem too he has good Apoc on (29 total by my count), but only 30% crit chance unbuffed?

By comparison I can sustain many many more casts because when I run meteor spec I have a much higher crit chance. He needs to spend some serious time trying gear for better crit chance.


I can get myself up to 45% cc with little problem. I will initially removing the cc in favor of Apoc and MF when I was under the false impression that Liquify was going to proc my Apoc each crit. I need to retool.

I do enjoy Meteor Shower most... this is a preference based on enjoyment and entertainment. I find Liquify to be most beneficial and I can spam Star Pact till the cows come home.
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seeing as how i have been a wiz for like, 5 minutes, my opinion doesnt really count, i know...

BUT

i am soloing MP8-10 with meteor shower and am having NO issues with APoC and CM resetting my diamond skin.

also did a group MP8 uber run (just me and one of meteor wiz... and WE DID IT!)

he used star pact and i rolled with ms...

we both used 2 diff bubbles...

omg it was awesome.

just my 2c...

my build is so much fun btw, i cant imagine why so many of you guys are obsessed with archon and CM/WW.

with proper endgame gear i have no doubt i can hit 150-200k dps which is all i will ever need.

ps - i stacked life regen for reflect dmg (currently at over 2k) and it is totally awesome, never die to reflect.
Edited by SayGa#1564 on 12/12/2012 10:21 AM PST
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I still don't get how Liquify can possibly be better then molten impact.

Liquify's only benefit is the longer proc duration, however that's totally irrelevent if you're able to consistently spam meteors to keep the conflag debuff up as well as always have at least 1 meteor ticking from molten impact...
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u cant spam molten that's the point. No matter your stats molten will be less spammable thus losing in long run. Besides I die with molten dont with liquefy due to it's longer damage curve rather than all up front. Reflect wreck my world with molten like 4-5 meets just kill me.
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yeah i would agree molton spam is overrated. i think meteor shower its pretty bomb.

again, i have 2k life regen so reflect isnt an issue anymore, and with ms, it keeps the upfront dmg low so i dont 1 shot myself.
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