Diablo® III

killing myself on reflect damage

Reflect Damage shouldn't be able to kill. I say make it so Reflect Damage has no effect while you are below 25% life.
Posts: 12,673
Personally, I don't find segmented offense to be a bad thing; quite the opposite, in fact. I think you feel similarly, but unfortunately we're the minority (unless its a silent majority).
This sums up my view as well. Reflects is fine; players are not.
- If we do elect to move forward with having Reflects Damage be a duration-based affix, we'd also want to add a new visual for whenever RD is active.


Terrific idea! Please implement this!
also I find it very amusing that the idea of "swap to a low dps weapon!" is only feasible because enrage timers were removed
Posts: 12,673
11/02/2012 02:36 PMPosted by TheCure
Reflect Damage shouldn't be able to kill. I say make it so Reflect Damage has no effect while you are below 25% life.
Might as well just remove it then.

What will happen is this:
Mob has Reflects
Your 25% mark is say, 15,000 life
You dip below to 14,000.
You hit, you LL/LoH back to 16,000 life
Mob reflects, you go back to 14,999.
You hit, you LL/LoH back to 16,000 life
etc... etc...

As long as your 25% mark is greater than the hit of a mob after mitigation, you will not die.
Reflect Damage should not be nerfed, there is way to deal with it with gear and skills. And it's good for the build deversity that no template had no counter (tank build => You don't die but it's slow as hell. Glass cannon => Facerolling, but sometimes 6 feets under)

The only think you could do are :
- Pets take reflect dmg instead of the player (the other solution should be to let player dismiss pets)
- Add visual aura to reflect damage elites (in the same idea you can add a visual of the direction arcane will start rotating)
- Apply dodge
- Reflect damage when life leach is calculated (before or after health link is apply, but avoid to apply RD before and LL after like now)

In summary, correct the issues and don't apply a patch just by reducing dmg.

PS : To add in my point of view, you can look at this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tzzu7Vlqoo
Yes a wizard can tank reflect damage even on MP10...
Posts: 5,091
The difficulty is that, like you said, most people understand 'reflects damage' to be the only time-sink, "halting play" monster affix. But it's simply a matter of perspective: Mortars, plague pools, arcane orbs...all of those obstacles/monster defenses require pause, evasive movement, and forward thinking; I consider them just as "halting" as an affix that may require you to cease attack for 10-15 seconds before finishing them with a second or third wave of attack. Why is it differentiated, then? Simple: It's the only affix that requires you to stop attacking. The others may require you to flee, dodge and/or heal, but you'll still be able to continue whittling down the monsters health, keeping with the mantra of "Diablo: FULL SPEED AHEAD."

Personally, I don't find segmented offense to be a bad thing; quite the opposite, in fact. I think you feel similarly, but unfortunately we're the minority (unless its a silent majority).

Does mortar require you to have gloom? Or smokescreen? Or LS/LOH stats? You can evade mortars/walls/arcane/whatever while stutter-stepping and dealing damage. That can be at least a little engaging. Do you find running away and hiding on the other side of the entrance while your prep is off cooldown engaging? If you do, then we look at this game from completely different perspectives.

Then there's group play. What does RD add to it? Nothing but frustration. DPS toon has to pace himself for some stupid reason, while tanks... well they do their job well no matter what affix is there. Explain that to me.
11/02/2012 02:35 PMPosted by CyberGoat
And stop playing. Yeah, that's not a fun way to deal with a game.
Not attacking is strategy. If you want to face-roll your way to win, then you can make that argument.

In the world of Diablo 3, sometimes you have to move out of Desecrator to win. Sometimes you have to reposition for Arcane beams. Sometimes you have to run around Walls. And sometimes, you have to stop attacking to beat Reflects.

Carrying 3 items also greatly enhances your survival vs reflects, at the cost of efficiency. You need to weigh "is this better than doing full dps and suffering res timer?". 1. Carry a shield (EVERY class can do this, even DH). 2. Carry a high LoH amulet (over 900). 3. Carry a low-dps weapon with a socket, high LoH, and LL. Socket an amethyst. After you die once to RD, go to town, swap your gear.

The whiners will win this. To many whiners using false arguments like "it's not fun". Game will become more and more face-roll over time.


Honestly the low dps bow with LoH and lifesteal is really enough without all that extra stuff. Although for MP7+ sure go ahead for sure. I use a 61% crit chance thunderbolt DH build with shield when I go super tanky sometimes. Thunderbolt stuns on crit btw. So I have very nice effective EHP with items, boar, and x2 turrets combined with the constant cancellation of monsters attacks via stun. This helps me and the tank immensely in tons of situations.

But I only do that if there is 2 GG dps and maybe a softie tank really or when im super bored.

I could tweak his crit chance way higher but it is unneeded as I already stunlock at 61%.

I love playing all the characters and have never once looked up a build. I love to figure out as many fun builds as I can on my own and really understand the character.

You may not trust me but I assure you I am just being 100% candid in trying to help you solve this problem. (other people not the person im responding to this post)
Posts: 12,673
11/02/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Jars
also I find it very amusing that the idea of "swap to a low dps weapon!" is only feasible because enrage timers were removed
Not true. Even in 1.04 and before, you could use a low dps weapon on the toughest acts, and enrage timers were removed in 1.03. I saw a YouTube of someone finishing Inferno with a 400 dps weapon.

The issues for 1.05 are this:
1. The community sucks. Nobody wants to use any strategy or alternate gear. D3 = "Full speed ahead" and "my playstyle should finish the game and beat everything!"

2. Most defensive skills were nerfed 25%. Reflects was not.

3. The community sucks. They legitimately believe that RD was dodgable. It was not, and never was except on PTR.
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11/01/2012 10:57 PMPosted by TheOroboros
i think demon hunters just as any other class should have at least 800 al res and some life steal at least on an off weapon to deal with an afix like this. i dont think it needs to be nerfed because although many demon hunters claim it is op the geared ones who forgo super high damage in favor of a slightly more rounded version of gear. Everyone could have insane damage if they did what most dh do. reflect damage is fine the way it is. its a strong afix but mostly a gearcheck.


I would love a link to any profiles of a DH with 800 AR. Also why is it that this affix punishes those with high dps and no inherent mitigation from it, when our class sets also come with next to no mitigation for it. Not only does a Barb get 30% mitigated right off the top even naked, then thier main stat adds to the best mitigation in the game, but hey lets give them every single stat they could ever want on their set gear and belt while we give the two classes who get next to no vit or AR on their class gear no mitigaion from the main stat they need as well. This arguement shines a light on what is the main problem with this game. Bad class design and equally bad game design. Anyone calling this affix fine is either a Barb or lookin for vindication for having crap gear and a off the wall build thats only real advantage is combatting this badly thought out and implemented affix.

One other thing. If Dex never did mitigate reflect damage then why does it hurt so much more in MP1 and who the hell decided Monks and DH should be the only classes to get no mitigation from this affix, or get next to no help from the horribly designed class sets. Ever look at prices for Nats chest? How often do we see Vit or any AR on alternate items either? Inquisitor? Really I have lost all faith in Blizzards ability to implement anything but Barb buffs. That blizzard thinks it fine to punish 2 classes so blatantly by this affix is mind boggling and highlights a serious lack of creativity in the design department.

Make the best gear in the game for a DH do no mitigation and then buff the affix that hurts them the most to try and provide balance is just stupid. Why did you all lower the mitigation gloom provides? So that Reflect would kill kill,us plain and simple. LAZIEST GAME DESIGN EVER PERIOD.
Edited by Stoneslammer#1524 on 11/2/2012 2:45 PM PDT
The difficulty is that, like you said, most people understand 'reflects damage' to be the only time-sink, "halting play" monster affix. But it's simply a matter of perspective: Mortars, plague pools, arcane orbs...all of those obstacles/monster defenses require pause, evasive movement, and forward thinking; I consider them just as "halting" as an affix that may require you to cease attack for 10-15 seconds before finishing them with a second or third wave of attack. Why is it differentiated, then? Simple: It's the only affix that requires you to stop attacking. The others may require you to flee, dodge and/or heal, but you'll still be able to continue whittling down the monsters health, keeping with the mantra of "Diablo: FULL SPEED AHEAD."

Personally, I don't find segmented offense to be a bad thing; quite the opposite, in fact. I think you feel similarly, but unfortunately we're the minority (unless its a silent majority).

Does mortar require you to have gloom? Or smokescreen? Or LS/LOH stats? You can evade mortars/walls/arcane/whatever while stutter-stepping and dealing damage. That can be at least a little engaging. Do you find running away and hiding on the other side of the entrance while your prep is off cooldown engaging? If you do, then we look at this game from completely different perspectives.

Then there's group play. What does RD add to it? Nothing but frustration. DPS toon has to pace himself for some stupid reason, while tanks... well they do their job well no matter what affix is there. Explain that to me.


Please just admit it. Say, "I want to be able to faceroll reflect as a glass cannon and never have a chance of dying."

Just say it.

Every time I down a reflect pack on my DH I feel satisfaction. Ill admit. When I see them I say "Fuuuuuuuuuuuudge. I gotta farm slower. (from a solo point of view. I burst the crap outa them in MP team games.) But when I down them it brings a smile to my face. Because I know how to defeat them with a build I can use for the whole game through every act.
RD is broken after you go mp4+++

its only balanced untill mp3


That would explain why I don't notice it as a huge problem. I still see it but the little loh and ls I have does the trick.

Hopefully Blizz will put some thought into adjusting it and not just hit a home run with the nerf bat.
Posts: 12,673
Honestly the low dps bow with LoH and lifesteal is really enough without all that extra stuff. Although for MP7+ sure go ahead for sure. I use a 61% crit chance thunderbolt DH build with shield when I go super tanky sometimes. Thunderbolt stuns on crit btw. So I have very nice effective EHP with items, boar, and x2 turrets combined with the constant cancellation of monsters attacks via stun. This helps me and the tank immensely in tons of situations.

But I only do that if there is 2 GG dps and maybe a softie tank really or when im super bored.

I could tweak his crit chance way higher but it is unneeded as I already stunlock at 61%.

I love playing all the characters and have never once looked up a build. I love to figure out as many fun builds as I can on my own and really understand the character.

You may not trust me but I assure you I am just being 100% candid in trying to help you solve this problem. (other people not the person im responding to this post)
The only thing to "change" about Reflects is the notification method. Have a red target aura on the feet of elites with RD.

That's all that needs to happen. It's fine the way it is.
Posts: 5,091
Not attacking is strategy. If you want to face-roll your way to win, then you can make that argument

Not attacking in ARPG is a strategy? Really?

In the world of Diablo 3, sometimes you have to move out of Desecrator to win. Sometimes you have to reposition for Arcane beams. Sometimes you have to run around Walls. And sometimes, you have to stop attacking to beat Reflects.

I can move out of desecrator and deal damage. I can reposition for arcane and deal damage. I can even run around walls and deal damage. I CANNOT deal damage if I'm required not to shoot.

Carrying 3 items also greatly enhances your survival vs reflects, at the cost of efficiency. You need to weigh "is this better than doing full dps and suffering res timer?". 1. Carry a shield (EVERY class can do this, even DH). 2. Carry a high LoH amulet (over 900). 3. Carry a low-dps weapon with a socket, high LoH, and LL. Socket an amethyst. After you die once to RD, go to town, swap your gear.

We also could swap gear to boost our MF temporarily. Why do I need to alter my current stats to deal with ONE affix?

The whiners will win this. To many whiners using false arguments like "it's not fun". Game will become more and more face-roll over time.

Logic always wins. It's perfectly fine for you not to like it, though.
The funny part is the whole essence of D3 is "Use items to give yourself a slightly permanent change in character change for builds"

Hence they removed stat allocation. Items ARE stat allocation in D3. They are your backbone for what skills you will want to use.

Yet when it comes to using this ingenuity to conquer the hurdles ahead of them people instead want to make it so the highest damage, squishiest build can spamtard through the whole game, every single champ pack.
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Just a thought but how about those player callin RD fine make thier profiles available? That way we can see what the rst of us are doing wrong.
Posts: 5,091
Wow you will recreate my reality over the internet just to convince yourself. I already told you. With a low dps bow with good life on hit and lifesteal I can gain life with trail of cinders AT ANY DIFFICULTY.

Reflect is meant to counter super fast burst.

The sooner you understand this the sooner you will stop crying.

We are just going in circles now and im tired of this. Ive tried glass cannon. Ive tried my way. Have you tried my way?

It's going in circles because you're not addressing any points, but simply repeating yourself. You're still to explain why reflect SHOULD counter "super fast burst".

Restating the same thing all over again does nothing in terms of backing it up.
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For those using the excuse that we all just wanna faceroll the content and that is why we hate RD. Have you seen the Barb class lately?
The whiners will win this. To many whiners using false arguments like "it's not fun". Game will become more and more face-roll over time.

For what it is worth, I agree with your conclusion, though not the route you took to it. The game has clearly gotten much easier, a pattern that could easily be seen in WoW before it, of content constantly getting nerfed.

However, reflect damage is just stupid. There's nothing strategic or interesting about it. You either gear-check it with resists/armor and life leech, or you DPS-stop-DPS-stop. Neither of these takes any skill.
Edited by vishnu#1844 on 11/2/2012 2:55 PM PDT
Just because one skill is named "Glass Cannon" doesnt mean you have to take it literally and not be able to build zero defense and give defense absolutely ZERO meaning in the grand scope of things.

What you are asking for is to ensure that every build at endgame and endskill is pure glass cannon with zero defense.

Always over a screen away from your team behind them using the top and bottom corners of your screen to corner mobs while never, ever, ever dying.

You are asking to kill defense absolutely.

Its not required. Stop attacking. Heal. Get more antidamage and hp. Or just get more HP and use the flat % hp insta heal in combo with health globes and pauses in dps. OR USE A DAMN LEACHBOW and heal. There are many options. You just aren't appeased by any of them and find them gross.

Either way I dont care. You can cry till it gets a toggle then you can spamtard burst refelct. Or you can learn and stop crying. Either way im just farming every once in a while to gear up for pvp and dont really care.

If they do make reflect toggle I hope your ready for it to be 1-2 seconds of dps on with 5-10 seconds of dps off toggle and some quick little trick ON OFF bursts in between. At least then it will still have ssome threat and you literal glass cannons will have zero excuse to cry. There is a chance to burst it if you have enough skill this way right?
Edited by Dirtpoor#1202 on 11/2/2012 3:01 PM PDT
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