Diablo® III

killing myself on reflect damage

11/02/2012 12:32 PMPosted by Lylirra
- If we do elect to move forward with having Reflects Damage be a duration-based affix, we'd also want to add a new visual for whenever RD is active.


This would be the best
We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


Instead of just solely increasing monsters hp with MP why did blizz not implement mitigation and hp increase as the basis for making mobs beefier? This would solve alot of reflect issues easily and also nerf the effects of lifesteal on insanely geared chars (looking at u barbs with 9% lifesteal)

So as an example instead of a say 100% increase in hp, increase hp by 50% and add x amount of mitigation % to get them to the same ehp as when they were increased by 100%.
(the numbers I gave here are purely for providing an example so please disregard them as actual numbers I want to see implemented)
Edited by TomPeters#1331 on 11/3/2012 5:14 PM PDT
11/02/2012 02:59 AMPosted by SpeedBumps
Nerfing the game to the ground may be the solution so we all can play MP10 after installing the game for the first time.


So blizzard possibly altering reflect damage to be more manageable is a nerf to game?

There's no challenge in gear checks.

Why not advocate for more mob affixes that can test a player's skill rather than gear if difficulty is the issue?
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11/03/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Shango


Problem is for a dps class like DH we are being pigeon holed into a defensive build style when nit all of us want to play that way. I am not say players should be able to rock all the way through the MP lvls but when you more than half the AR your toon is capable of getting and still,get oneshotted through Gloom then there is a problem.

Any poster who is not able to farm past MP8 should not be posting on how the game has no challenge. Simply move up a lvl and dont worry about it.


You have 243AR, are you saying you can't reach 500AR ?

I can farm MP7 effectively but not MP8, want to know why? I can't deal enough damage. because I'm forced to stack just enough AR to deal with Arcane, Desecrate, and Molten. I have a Skorn which gives me 17K more dps, but my survivability goes way down.

BTW if i were to run with 243AR I doubt I could farm MP4 effectively...


I guess the idea of farming lower MP lvls for drops escapes you eh? I change out of the AR gear and defensive build to,farm MP 1 for drops,very fast.

Ohh poor baby you cant farm MP 8 efficiently? OMFG my heart bleeds for you. With 600 AR I cant farm MP5 efficiently so THANK YOU for proving my point man. Now if you who,has inherent damage mitigation and whose main stat helps mitigate all damage including RD has problems, how you think I feel? Oh yea those affixes you mentioned, dont keep standing in them. See you can actually avoid thise affixes but seem to dense to do that. We CAN NOT avoid RD damage.

How utterly out of touch and full of themselves can you get? Farming MP 7 would be awesome. Dont think many DH know how that feels unfortunately. So all know,what I mean. Farming does not mean being able to merely clear that MP lvl but clear it quickly. Although that 45k dps DH of Razors prolly farms it naked and standing on his head. He is so awesome just like you.



45k damage DH hunter who claims to farm MP5 really should !@#$. Having every other class outdamage you when you play the class with highest dps, is just pathetic an is very easy to see why you have no prob with RD. Not to mention you main Barb. Then you gear and build ur dh like a tank. So just stop this pathetic attempt to undermine this discussion. The whole "glass cannon" arguement is only being used by horribly geared toon with garbage builds or OP Barbs who for some reason dont want any other class to farm as efficiently as they do. In your cases both examples applies.

Stop trying to,justify your horribleness by using pathetic debunked arguements.


you just don't understand do you, how many times do i have to say it, we are not all flooding with gold, it's an alt charac that i enjoy playing and yes i build her to be a 'balanced' build while using a shield. and once again , yes i can play in mp5.

sorry mr. cookie cutter, you go on about how blizzard is stoping you from having build diversity yet you come here and mock my build because it's different, nice one hyprocrite.




45k damage DH hunter who claims to farm MP5 really should !@#$. Having every other class outdamage you when you play the class with highest dps, is just pathetic an is very easy to see why you have no prob with RD. Not to mention you main Barb. Then you gear and build ur dh like a tank. So just stop this pathetic attempt to undermine this discussion. The whole "glass cannon" arguement is only being used by horribly geared toon with garbage builds or OP Barbs who for some reason dont want any other class to farm as efficiently as they do. In your cases both examples applies.

Stop trying to,justify your horribleness by using pathetic debunked arguements.


you just don't understand do you, how many times do i have to say it, we are not all flooding with gold, it's an alt charac that i enjoy playing and yes i build her to be a 'balanced' build while using a shield. and once again , yes i can play in mp5.

sorry mr. cookie cutter, you go on about how blizzard is stoping you from having build diversity yet you come here and mock my build because it's different, nice one hyprocrite.


I dont use a cookie cutter build but nice try. I frequently change up skills as I get bored. How many DH you know wear Tals ammy? But guess what is now the cookie,cutter build? Perfection passive, Boar pet, Bubble Turret, Spike traps, Shadow Power and whatever hatred builder you want. That is the new Cookie Cutter buid for the undergeared and somewhat poor DH. How many of those do you use. Do you think getting 30% mitigation from standing in one spot, 35% from Gloom and 15%AR from Boar as well as a 10% across,the board buff from perfection is a fun way to play? Of course you have no prob because of those skills put together with that passive is horribly OP and really should be looked into.

You think you are being original? Or Different? You use the cookie cutter build of the new to Inferno DHs and the terribad DHs. With the build you use i would be unkillable upto and probably past MP8. The point some are just too stupid to comprehend is we arebeing forced into these so called original builds.

First you make Barb then you make low dps tank DH. Why play a DH at all?
Couple of follow ups:

- Hydra and Sentry are technically "pets" (so to speak), so whenever we make the change to no longer allow pet damage to reflect back to the player, they'll be included too.

- If we do elect to move forward with having Reflects Damage be a duration-based affix, we'd also want to add a new visual for whenever RD is active.


If you guys are going add a visual effect to reflect damage, use something similar to D2's Thorns aura when the elites have reflect damage on.
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We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


Instead of just solely increasing monsters hp with MP why did blizz not implement mitigation and hp increase as the basis for making mobs beefier? This would solve alot of reflect issues easily and also nerf the effects of lifesteal on insanely geared chars (looking at u barbs with 9% lifesteal)

So as an example instead of a say 100% increase in hp, increase hp by 50% and add x amount of mitigation % to get them to the same ehp as when they were increased by 100%.
(the numbers I gave here are purely for providing an example so please disregard them as actual numbers I want to see implemented)


See this just makes too much sense. I have also suggested that each monster type have actual resistancies which is like mitigation but adds spice cause a mob could mitigate fire but your poison wep melts them or Mobs in the ice caves in act 3 should be immune to cold effects and mitigate some or lots of any cold damage dished out as well as be extremely weak to fire.

Ideas like the above can add challenge and build diversity. A player may find they want a completely different build in act 2 than act 3. As it stands now we usually just find the most efficient build for farming and that we die the least on and stay with it. NV buff sorta inhibits swapping out a skill and is horribly design to have us lose our buff if we want to adapt for a challenging encounter. Which imo also leads back to why we hate RD so much. We may gomto MP2 for effieciency but because of that one affix the whole run is no longer efficient because although I heavily outgear that MP I am forced to use a passive and skill or two that i flat out dont like. The Perfection passive is rather nice. But because i feel forced to take it almost all the time for the 10% I turf it off my skill bar the very first chance i get. Instead of likeing the passive I resent being forced to use it and abandon cull the weak to have it which makes the very expensive Tals cold ammy i paid dearly in Gold for,redundant. But we will adapt and hopefully Blizzard put some thoughts into monsters mitigating our damage and/or having base resitances
Edited by Stoneslammer#1524 on 11/3/2012 5:49 PM PDT
Your chars all have crap damage. What exactly are you facerolling ? MP0 ?
LOL


This coming from a barb with 60 dps , nice troll fail. GG

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/alpahc-2190/ Impressive 150 elite kills too btw.
Edited by Shatterstorm#1393 on 11/3/2012 5:56 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Lylirra
We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


I would love to see this change happen. It would bring RD inline with the rest of the affixes in this game by adding some more player skill into the mix of mitigating it. This change really needs to happen because right now RD requires so much attention to deal with compared with any other affixes. For WD's in particular it effects build choices and specific gear choices, which seems kind of silly based on the fact no other affix comes close to that kind of impact.

I would suggest that if the change does go through at some point to have it duration based, allow it to do more damage returned then it does now to offset the nerf so people really have to pay attention.
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Your chars all have crap damage. What exactly are you facerolling ? MP0 ?
LOL


This coming from a barb with 60 dps , nice troll fail. GG

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/alpahc-2190/ Impressive 150 elite kills too btw.


Yep we get some very SMRT posters on these boards. Some who post/troll daily have the same number of elite kills as a month or two ago and many not even outta hell. But they gonna tell us how it is. Is like they have no shame or consider themselves immune from looking like a reject from the short bus. I really do hope Blizzard takes those things into account when making game changes based on customer feedback. Cant say I am all that confident they will though.
I've never had a significant problem with RD. I had to slow down a bit, when I was playing hydra/bliz, which is kind of the point, but other than that they've always been easy for me. Maybe I need to try them on some different classes or with nooby glass canon gear. *shrug*
Reflect is a lazy way to make the game challenging.

It would be nice for the game to implement creative and challenging monster abilities.


Agreed reflect damage is a gear check which is why it is a lazy design. I have enough mitigation and legacy Nats for gloom spam. I pass the gear check reflect gives me absolutely zero problems. Enrage timers were another form of gear checks tanky low dps characters whined until they got removed from elites. I never cared about enrage timers they weren't an issue because I killed elites before they could enrage, but there was a lot of whining about them.

I actually agreed that they didn't belong in Diablo and supported the removal of enrage. Reflect isn't an issue for me and I support making changes to it.
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We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


I would love to see this change happen. It would bring RD inline with the rest of the affixes in this game by adding some more player skill into the mix of mitigating it. This change really needs to happen because right now RD requires so much attention to deal with compared with any other affixes. For WD's in particular it effects build choices and specific gear choices, which seems kind of silly based on the fact no other affix comes close to that kind of impact.

I would suggest that if the change does go through at some point to have it duration based, allow it to do more damage returned then it does now to offset the nerf so people really have to pay attention.


Nothing wrong with this idea either. Although it would be nice if it was not possible for stray arrows to wonder offscreen into RD packs. It doesnt happen often but more than I care to deal with. It took me a few time to realize why i was alive one second and dead the next and not A RD mob onscreen. Sometimes not even noticing there was a RD pack off screen. If it wasnt for my OCD way of clearing and me leaving no nook or cranny undiscovered I may have took a lot longer to notice cause ofmthese mysterious deaths.
Edited by Stoneslammer#1524 on 11/3/2012 6:11 PM PDT
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Reflect is a lazy way to make the game challenging.

It would be nice for the game to implement creative and challenging monster abilities.


Agreed reflect damage is a gear check which is why it is a lazy design. I have enough mitigation and legacy Nats for gloom spam. I pass the gear check reflect gives me absolutely zero problems. Enrage timers were another form of gear checks tanky low dps characters whined until they got removed from elites. I never cared about enrage timers they weren't an issue because I killed elites before they could enrage, but there was a lot of whining about them.

I actually agreed that they didn't belong in Diablo and supported the removal of enrage. Reflect isn't an issue for me and I support making changes to it.


Glad you posted. I can easily change a skill here and a chestpiece there to make RD pretty muc no concern at all up to MP 6ish i would think. But my main issue is that a sinlgle affix is causing players to use skills they flat out dont like. Or that they may just want swap out for diversity. RD ruins that for all high dps charactors and even,those just starting out who may not even bother trying certain builds or playstyles because of one single affix. For those that the affix neither bothers them deathwise or inhibits them from trying other skills, why you care if they make it duration based, add a visual effect, or remove it completely? I amsure there are more options that the threen I just mentioned but it seems some are just foaming at the mouth of any thought of RD being changed for the better.

I wonder if each and everyone of those posters felt the same about Invulnerable Minions. Which by the way actually provided some challenge as well as a gear check, cause lets face it no way you were not gonna take hits. I found that affix a tough but satisfying encounter. RD is not even in the same league. It is just that some builds and one whole class entirely can breeze by RD packs without a though thanks to some heavily biased devs i might add. Only DHs I have seen against a change to RD have legacy Nats and an Ego to go with it.
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11/03/2012 06:11 PMPosted by vexorian
If reflect damage is timed, it should be buffed in percentage, so that attacking while RD is on almost usually kills you unless you have truly godly defense gear. This would make the affix very interesting as opposed to a gear check.


so any dots you have on them will instantly kill you cool
11/01/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Jay
We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


Interesting... reminds me of Iron Maiden in D2


If I remember corrrectly, they removed Iron Maiden from the game because it was stupid killing yourself on an enemy. Apparently shooting something with an arrow is going to inflict pain to yourself. Sound's legit.
I think RD is out of line with the other affixes becouse it did not get the ~25% reduction that all monster damage took in order to turn defensive skills less mandatory. In fact is exactly how it fells at the moment, you need to spec defensively just becouse of this affix.

A hotfix could be issued to try this solution before changing any of the affix mecanics, to be certain that is in fact needed.
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I hate RD but honestly it keeps me from playing like a DPS retard. I have to regulate my DPS output and do a tiny itty bitty bit of thinking. My hp is getting low I better lower dps and use mitigation skills. OKay my hps is back up due to regen I can increase dps.

Doesn't RD stop working when you stun??? Usually when i am low i stun and use LS to get my hps back

w/e they will nerf it go ahead it will make farming a lot more boring for me
i can one shot my DH on MP 7. My res all is ~450 and dmg is ~75k ~3800 armor. I run with gloom now. It helped, not solved the problem of RD being too strong.
Edited by MOOT#1642 on 11/3/2012 7:41 PM PDT
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