Diablo® III

killing myself on reflect damage

11/01/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Jay
We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


Interesting... reminds me of Iron Maiden in D2


In all fairness, it was one of the more popular things in D2. Oh wait, they actually removed iron maiden because players hated it.
11/02/2012 12:09 AMPosted by Immundissime
There's a strange issue with reflect damage and some other affixes. Mostly, reflect damage only hits for a small portion of my damage. But when its combined with the health link affix, the damage reflected shoots WAY up. There are a couple others I've noticed slight variations with, but that's the worst offender by far.

It's probably because you do damage to 1 target and lifesteal works only for this 1 target but Reflect works for all 3. Can we get a bluepost for this situation?
Reflect damage should be triggered by melee attack only.
i like thereflect damage mobs, because i think its neccesary to have at least 1 difficult mob per build, otherwise glasscanon archon builds are ftw.

i like the reflects this way, it recruires some sort of skill to kill them
with 700 res, 5.1% life steal and 450 loh

but don't worry guys prismatic armor is totally not mandatory

(it's still mandatory, thanks reflect damage!)


Do like me .. check my profile ..

i sacrificed 33k dps to use a shield on my WD :D

-33k dps
armor 5063 to 6445
lowest resist 1069 to 1138
+7% DR vs elites
+6% DR vs melee
dodge 30% to 26% :(

As you can see .. even without the shield my defenses are considerably higher than your typical witch doctor or any class' defensive stats prior to being modified by skills, yet RD was a problem for me.

I wonder what its like for a wd with say 150k dps, 3.2k armor, and 700 lowest resist. yikes! they must kill themselves in one cast of bears every time.

I have dealt with it my way. Another way would be to use a skill that causes much less damage, but I hate taking 5+ minutes to kill a pack. This is especially annoying if they have other affixes that make staying alive for those 5 minutes to be a constant focus pain in the butt.
We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


How about scaling it like you do life steal based on mode difficulty (the higher the difficulty the less of the actual value is used: inferno is 20%)?
Edited by Traz#1392 on 11/2/2012 2:18 AM PDT
on 1.05, they nerfed most of our defensive buff and passive, also most people that complaint about RD is the one playing on higher MP (more elites HP).

try to see it like this,
RD = fire on the ground when you're fighting "The Butcher" .

current RD reflecting ALL your damage means "The Buther" fire enrage which cover all ground.
THERE"S NO ESCAPE AND THE ONLY WAY TO SURVIVE IS STACK RES AND ARMOR ON YOUR GEAR.

11/01/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Lylirra
We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


that would be just like normal butcher groundfire, they didn't cover all the ground.
we still can survive with awareness and quick response. (which IMO is an Action RPG all about, not that stupid gearcheck)

i don't care if they increase the reflected damage to 50%, as long there's a way to outsmart it not outgear it

EDIT : added some words :)
Edited by SIONG#1872 on 11/2/2012 2:25 AM PDT
11/01/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Lylirra
That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


finally a blue post on reflect!

Making it periodically is one of the best solution. This way RD is still deadly if you just attack blindly, but doesnt kill you again and again.

Other two option would be
1) Life steal on more items and MUCH better proc rate for LOH with all skills
2)Put a cap on reflect. This can be lowest possible health, dmg reflected back/second or just make it not increase linear with MP (right now it only depends on monster health)
- Technical Support
90 Human Priest
6120
We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


Lylirra,

The problem with RD is only partially caused by the insane monster health in high MP levels. The real core of the problem is that almost all classes received a mitigation/defensive (oftentimes healing) nerf in this patch as an accompaniment to the monster damage nerf received in Inferno.

You see, because Reflects Damage does as much damage to us now as it did in 1.0.4, and we have a lesser ability to mitigate/heal through it due to those nerfs, it's hurting us a lot more than it ever did, making it a huge issue. The Demon Hunter got it worst of all in that their main heal-through ability, Shadow Power, got a duration boost, but its lifesteal amount, which is what kept them alive through RD, also got nerfed from 20% to 15%. Blood Moon's lifesteal total received an equivalant nerf as well. But the big component to this for the DH is that the Gloom rune's 65% migitation was brought down to a mere 35%, netting a 46% loss in total mitigation right off the bat, making RD hit us that much harder.

This should have been a very easy situation for the devs to spot. Reducing our ability to mitigate damage intake while leaving the damage reflected back at us unchanged = major problems. It's so much of a problem that Demon Hunters, and in fact nearly every class is effectively having to gear specifically for this one affix while trying to maintain viability for the build they choose to use. That's a really aggravating way to have to play this game, and is another huge reason that the players are very angry right now about this.

While Reflects Damage was annoying for sure in 1.0.4, on the champion/elite packs it was still liveable. It's much less so in 1.0.5 due to the situation I mentioned in this post. This isn't to say that players enjoy being one-shotted by their abilities because of this affix though.

I also have a couple other things thing to mention - and it's really been dragging down the enjoyment of the game for three of the five classes (which operate at range most of the time), and that's the fact that this affix basically makes us play a "slide ruler" balancing game where we have no choice but to get to X amount of mitigation/heal capability while staying below Y damage ceiling, and with the massively inflated monster health pools in higher MP levels, which top out at a whoppingly insane 3439%, that becomes a major pain in the rear, if not impossible task for many players (did you really have to jack the HP up that much? What happened to developer creativity with monster mechanics...?).

The other problem has to do with the fact that the bosses still have an enrage timer. This isn't World of Warcraft. And in a game where you strive to be (and feel!) as powerful as you can, being stuck with the Reflects Damage affix built into a boss with an enrage timer, especially on a higher MP level, is just nuts. They're conflicting designs that are outdated and point to a lack of the devs' ability to be creative with mechanics instead of nothing but punitive. They tried to use it against ranged classes as a hard counter for them (RD), and put in enrage timers as a hard counter for pure tank builds, but the two just fight against each other and create a "one way to do it" type of playstyle approach that really drives people away from the game.

This entire debacle is compounded by the fact that only the Mighty Belts (Barbarian Only) can get lifesteal, making that class yet again perceived to be the "favored" class and "the way to go" when dealing with the higher levels of MP in terms of sheer efficiency, in addition to the fact that Ignore Pain did not get the same corresponding nerf to its defensive capability that the rest of the classes got to theirs, meaning yet again the Barbarian has the highest EHP and survivability, and thus remains the most efficient class in the game by far.

There are a metric crapton of conflicting design elements going on here that really should not be together in this game at all. It would be nice if somebody actually acknowledged this instead of continuing to shine us off like we're just a bunch of idiots. We're not, and we know exactly what's going on with the classes we play every day.

I sincerely hope you pass this feedback along because it's getting beyond frustrating being given the dirty end of the stick all the time (unless you play a Barbarian of course). I want to enjoy the game not fight a constant war with its mechanics.

A cookie to the dev that actually comes up with a creative replacement for this all too limiting mechanics forced on us just to counter glass cannons. Less "our way or the highway" and more "what QQ? It's time to PEWPEW!" please...

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Edited by TheTias#1192 on 11/2/2012 2:35 AM PDT
We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


BLIZZARD BENDING OVER TO THE CRYING VOICE OF THE NOOB POPULAS

THIS GAME IS BECOMING A JOKE WITH EVERY NERF MAKING IT EASIER AND EASIER

RENAME IT TO HELLO KITTY ISLAND THANKS
BLIZZARD BENDING OVER TO THE CRYING VOICE OF THE NOOB POPULAS

THIS GAME IS BECOMING A JOKE WITH EVERY NERF MAKING IT EASIER AND EASIER

RENAME IT TO HELLO KITTY ISLAND THANKS


why everytime i read such a post, i'll check their profile
then "oh yeah, of course"
We know Reflects Damage has been a little more challenging for some players in this patch, so we've been reviewing feedback regarding the affix pretty closely since 1.0.5 released. The actual values for the stat haven't changed at all and, in general, it seems like the issue for players is really just related to increased monster health thanks to Monster Power.

Since monsters have a lot more health in the higher MP levels, not only do fights last longer, but players need to do a lot more damage in order to kill their targets. Of course, that means there's a lot more opportunity for you to get hit with Reflects Damage. So, whereas before the patch, a player may have been able to kill monsters with the Reflects Damage affix no problem and with health to spare, now that fights are lasting longer that same player may not have as much success -- at least, not without making some adjustments to their build or gear.

That said, we do agree that we can make some improvements. For example, we'll be making it so that damage dealt by pets will no longer reflect back to the player. We're also toying with the idea of changing Reflects Damage so that it has a duration and can only be activated by monsters periodically (rather than it always being active), but that's definitely not yet set in stone.


This isn't necessary. Just fix it so we can dodge reflect like pre 1.0.5 and all the QQing will stop instantly.
BLIZZARD BENDING OVER TO THE CRYING VOICE OF THE NOOB POPULAS

THIS GAME IS BECOMING A JOKE WITH EVERY NERF MAKING IT EASIER AND EASIER

RENAME IT TO HELLO KITTY ISLAND THANKS


why everytime i read such a post, i'll check their profile
then "oh yeah, of course"


check the profiles of the op and all the other noobs who want a nerf

low armor or resist or both

low life on hit or lifesteal or both

"oh yeah, of course"
Nerfing the game to the ground may be the solution so we all can play MP10 after installing the game for the first time. I had problems with RD, like so many others, before I got better gear. Now I eat RD for breakfast. My worst affix combo is molten fast horde, but i accept the fact that I might die a few times before the fight is over.
What I wish for is an alternative weapons set switch. Just like D2, when you ran into those pesky immunes, change set with a button and just keep fighting.
I just don't get why some people whine and whine about the game being to hard when we all have a choice of setting the difficulty, if MP5 is too tough play MP4. It's supposed to be hard stop asking for nerfs, its already nerfed enough.
There are plenty of ways to manage it as a DH; it never kills me even using spikes and bola. If it kills you, play at a lower difficulty level or get better gear. It ridiculous to cry for everything to be nerfed. What fun will the game be if nothing is a threat?


get better gear? Says the DH with 87k dps. That is extremly low for a DH no wonder reflect isnt so deadly for you.

My wd has 107k unbuffed dps+soj and bears 1shot me with 50k hp 600all res 4.4k armor. I am already playing on MP4-5 because of reflect, if it wasnt for reflect i could farm MP6-7. Better gear would cost me 100m+ each slot

Nerfing the game to the ground may be the solution so we all can play MP10 after installing the game for the first time. I had problems with RD, like so many others, before I got better gear. Now I eat RD for breakfast. My worst affix combo is molten fast horde, but i accept the fact that I might die a few times before the fight is over.
What I wish for is an alternative weapons set switch. Just like D2, when you ran into those pesky immunes, change set with a button and just keep fighting.
I just don't get why some people whine and whine about the game being to hard when we all have a choice of setting the difficulty, if MP5 is too tough play MP4. It's supposed to be hard stop asking for nerfs, its already nerfed enough.


you use a very low dmg build with grasp of the dead and acid cloud lob bomb. If you actually used a strong build you would realise how terrible reflect is
Edited by Nanaki#1926 on 11/2/2012 3:17 AM PDT
check the profiles of the op and all the other noobs who want a nerf

low armor or resist or both

low life on hit or lifesteal or both

"oh yeah, of course"


6500 armor 930 res low? LoH? you funny clown. LoH is for a noob like you, i'm using lifesteal.
2.8% lifesteal weapon, oh yeah i have it, i switch it only for RD.
so !@#$ and stay put 'kay
LOL
Reflect just needs a cap really.

My DH has about 60k HP, 500 AR, 4.2k armor and up to 260k DPS if I have Steady Aim on. My Spike Traps can crit up to 1.6 million damage with a SoJ against elites. It doesn't matter if I have 3% Life Steal and 2,000 Life on Hit, I will kill myself almost instantly. Shadow Power with Gloom helps but my health just bounces between 25% and 100% between reflect and life leech procs.

It doesn't need nerfing into the ground, it just needs some tweaks. I loved the aura idea that someone mentioned earlier so you can identify it straight off the bat for instance, but having it just randomly turn itself off during a fight isn't a good idea because it will become too unpredictable unless you work it like shielding does - in that you can see it's about to come active before it actually does. I'd still say the damage should be capped though, maybe up to X% of your total health so it chips away at you instead of like double 30k reflects, bam, dead.
i took a quick peek at yer wizzard and i cant say as i understand your build but i would emagin your dropping hydra and hiting the RD mob and hydra is broken. it will refect damage to you but current has a 0 proc rate wich mean u get no life steel or loh from it on damage from RD. useing a CM spec i can easy tank 3-5 refelect damage mobs with 2.3 life stell and a few loh with no prismatic armor also with an archon spec on lower mp levels i can usualy kill one at a time and grab health globe to refresh try and hit 6 at a time kills me though
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