Diablo® III

Auction flaw: the bid 3secs before the end

You need to ask yourself the question, "what is the most I'd be willing to pay if there is a competing bidder," and then place THAT amount as your bid. If there is no competing bidder, you will win the item for 5% higher than the next highest bidder, and receive a nice overbid refund to send to your stash.If you take the additional precaution of placing that maximum bid in the final seconds, you can eliminate the chance that a shill bidder will artificially drive up the price.

yes,i think so,STOP complain about that.If you want that item you can bid 2000mil and you will win,that's all
Edited by DevilHunter#6873 on 11/19/2012 9:14 PM PST
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If you bid with that attitude in mind then it doesn't matter if someone outbids you because if they do they are bidding more than you were going to pay for the item in the first place. Stop complaining and blaming the "auction system" or "snipers" or anything else for that matter.


This is exactly correct. As he mentioned, you people are going in with the wrong mindset. If you put in 100m and get sniped with a 105m bid, it is not because there's an annoying prick out there who just wants to get at you. It is because he values the item more than you, so shouldn't he deserve to win it?

One more thing that I think many people don't know about the proxy system. If the current winning bid is 10m, and you put in 100m (your value of the item), THE NEW WINNING BID DOES NOT APPEAR AS 100M!!! It appears as 10m x 5% = 10.5m. The Auction House keeps your max bid a SECRET! So even if someone out there wants to snipe it, he does NOT know that he has to put at least 105m. In the final 5 seconds, he may put in 70m, which SHOULD obviously be high enough, right??? I mean, 70m for a 10.5m item??

INCORRECT!!! You have just won it for 73.5m!!! Which is still 26.5m less that what you valued it!

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Scenario. It is a scorching day, you are thirsty as hell. Someone has an ice cold Coke for sale. Just one bottle left. 3 people want it, so the seller opens an auction. All bids are secret, but the current highest bid will be stated.

You have $50 in your wallet, but you think, "it's just a bloody Coke," so you put in $3. A competitor sees that the winning bid is $3, and he really wants the Coke so badly, so he puts $10. You see that the new winning bid is $3 + 5% = $3.15. So now you know that someone else wants it, and your brain is also screaming out for some hydration, so you make a decision. DANG, I WANT THIS COKE AND I WILL PAY $9 FOR IT. So you wait till there's 5 seconds remaining, and you throw in $9, which is nearly thrice more than the current winning bid of $3.15.

And then... boom. You still lose, because you didn't know the other bidder actually put $10. That, my friends, is how AND WHY the current AH system works fine. You put in your max, it keeps it a secret. If you lose it in the end, it just means that someone's secret was higher than your secret.

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Don't think it works? I won my Barb's IK chest, trifecta ring and amulet with this mindset. I didn't snipe. I put in my max bid with about 1-3 hours remaining and even snipers couldn't match up to it. Did I have to bid insane amounts to achieve this? Amulet, maybe, but definitely not for the rest. I bid only what I valued the item to be.
Edited by spacecadet#1853 on 11/19/2012 9:47 PM PST
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You do realize that for every person wishing they had time to bid higher when they are outbid at the last second, the seller has been screwed out receiving a higher bid and making more money?


No he has not been screwed out of more bids. Your suggestion would make it so that people would HAVE to be there at the end for who knows how long if they want to bid on an item. Is it so hard to understand that the way the system works is you bid the MAXIMUM you're willing to spend, ONCE and then you're free to go about your business not having to worry about being there for the end of an auction you're interested in? Tell me this, what happens when an auction gets extended past when you have to leave for work, or school, or have to go to the bathroom, or go to bed or...but you wanted to bid more?

Anyone "wishing they had more time" should have figured out how much they were willing to spend the first time.


Clearly you are unfamiliar of the advantages for the seller of a bidding war and hype generated as an item nears its closing time.

Are you also so naive that, though someone might be willing to pay up to 100m for an item, they might want to try to get it for less? Bidding 100m as your max bid early in the item's listing time is a sure way to get the price jacked up or to even get outbid. Are you also so naive to think that, if someone were only willing to pay 100m for it when they placed the bid, at the end of the auction knowing they might lose it at 101m that their estimation and what they are actually willing to pay might increase in a moment of emotional impulse?
Edited by Mith#1762 on 11/20/2012 9:26 AM PST
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Too much time on your hand.
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I cant believe someone really is so wrong could post and think they are so right.

OP you really need to learn how the AH works.
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11/19/2012 09:35 PMPosted by spacecadet
If you bid with that attitude in mind then it doesn't matter if someone outbids you because if they do they are bidding more than you were going to pay for the item in the first place. Stop complaining and blaming the "auction system" or "snipers" or anything else for that matter.


This is exactly correct. As he mentioned, you people are going in with the wrong mindset. If you put in 100m and get sniped with a 105m bid, it is not because there's an annoying prick out there who just wants to get at you. It is because he values the item more than you, so shouldn't he deserve to win it?

One more thing that I think many people don't know about the proxy system. If the current winning bid is 10m, and you put in 100m (your value of the item), THE NEW WINNING BID DOES NOT APPEAR AS 100M!!! It appears as 10m x 5% = 10.5m. The Auction House keeps your max bid a SECRET! So even if someone out there wants to snipe it, he does NOT know that he has to put at least 105m. In the final 5 seconds, he may put in 70m, which SHOULD obviously be high enough, right??? I mean, 70m for a 10.5m item??

INCORRECT!!! You have just won it for 73.5m!!! Which is still 26.5m less that what you valued it!

---
Scenario. It is a scorching day, you are thirsty as hell. Someone has an ice cold Coke for sale. Just one bottle left. 3 people want it, so the seller opens an auction. All bids are secret, but the current highest bid will be stated.

You have $50 in your wallet, but you think, "it's just a bloody Coke," so you put in $3. A competitor sees that the winning bid is $3, and he really wants the Coke so badly, so he puts $10. You see that the new winning bid is $3 + 5% = $3.15. So now you know that someone else wants it, and your brain is also screaming out for some hydration, so you make a decision. DANG, I WANT THIS COKE AND I WILL PAY $9 FOR IT. So you wait till there's 5 seconds remaining, and you throw in $9, which is nearly thrice more than the current winning bid of $3.15.

And then... boom. You still lose, because you didn't know the other bidder actually put $10. That, my friends, is how AND WHY the current AH system works fine. You put in your max, it keeps it a secret. If you lose it in the end, it just means that someone's secret was higher than your secret.

---

Don't think it works? I won my Barb's IK chest, trifecta ring and amulet with this mindset. I didn't snipe. I put in my max bid with about 1-3 hours remaining and even snipers couldn't match up to it. Did I have to bid insane amounts to achieve this? Amulet, maybe, but definitely not for the rest. I bid only what I valued the item to be.


OK, now imagine that there is auto-prolong feature in this auction. What will be changed for you? right - nothing! Proxy bidding will be working the same way. IF you put x10 more gold than real price, then nobody will reach your secret bid and auto-prolong will not be enabled.

auto-prolong feature is for real trades when buyers make small bids increment, and want to trade it till the end, increasing the bid.

PS. looks like you missed very important point - auto-prolong triggers only when the leader is changed, not after each new bid in the last 60secs, there could be many bids in the last 60secs, but if the leader is not changed then auto-prolong will never be triggered.
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If you need to raise your bid then you didn't bid your maximum to begin with. When the box is labeled "Maximum Bid" that should not be translated to bid what you think will win the item now and then come back later and raise that bid if you need to.

Bid your maximum amount. Works every time.
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OK, now imagine that there is auto-prolong feature in this auction. What will be changed for you? right - nothing! Proxy bidding will be working the same way. IF you put x10 more gold than real price, then nobody will reach your secret bid and auto-prolong will not be enabled.

auto-prolong feature is for real trades when buyers make small bids increment, and want to trade it till the end, increasing the bid.

PS. looks like you missed very important point - auto-prolong triggers only when the leader is changed, not after each new bid in the last 60secs, there could be many bids in the last 60secs, but if the leader is not changed then auto-prolong will never be triggered.


If you add in a feature to prolong an auction then you are not sticking to the planned auction time. Auctions have a set time limit for a reason. Whether you bid in the first minute the auction is open or the last minute it is open there is no need for an "auto-prolong" feature as you call it. Most people refer to it as an "anti-sniper" system.

Think of the AH as a silent auction. No one knows "how much" that someone else is willing to pay. So if you bid what you are willing to pay (and by that I mean the VERY MAXIMUM LIMIT) then if you do not win the auction you have lost NOTHING. You have not paid over the value you set for that item. If you need an auto-prolong feature added so that you can bid more for an item that means you are not approaching the AH with this mindset which is part of the problem. Everyone complaining has this same problem. The system is perfectly fine as is if you have that attitude.
Edited by Iceman8619#1225 on 11/20/2012 10:58 AM PST
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11/20/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Iceman8619
If you add in a feature to prolong an auction then you are not sticking to the planned auction time. Auctions have a set time limit for a reason.


it will be in planned time for you anyway: you make your max bid, if you won - the auction will not be prolonged, because you stay as leader, if not - you don't care about it, because you do not plan to bid further.
Now you can argue that it will not be planned for Seller, OK I have answer for you: Seller will have only profit from auto-prolong because his lot will became more and more expensive from second to second - he will get more money. If you are concerned about small bids - then put a higher initial bid, so next bid increment will be higher.
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The whole "bid the max amount you'd be willing to pay" is a negligent solution.

The "max amount you'd be willing to pay" fluctuates based on circumstances. The current AH set-up diminishes this emotional factoring process of circumstance. The max amount you'd pay is probably different in the heat of a bidding war than when the auction has over one day left. The current way the AH is set up doesn't cater to this dynamic. Everyone instead just holds off on bidding altogether and scrambles to bid at the last second like a pack of wolves. It's just sloppy and there's no reason for it.

It's completely plausible that you'd throw more gold at an item you thought you'd only pay 100M max for, when someone outbids you and places a 110M bid. It's not unreasonable for that mental shift to take place because bidding is also an emotional reaction not solely a logical one; and there's no reason we shouldn't have an auction house that supports a fluid exchange of bids.

In no real life auction would the auctioneer say "TIMES UP! NO MORE BIDS BECAUSE THIS ARBITRARY SET OF TIME HAS CONCLUDED!" when bidding is still in process. Real life auctions don't have time caps, but Blizzard obviously can't hire auctioneers for every item on the market, but there's no reason not to have the coding for auctions be as close to that as possible. There's a reason "Going once.... going twice.... SOLD!" is such an iconic way to end an auction, because it offers any last minute twitch bids to enter the arena, which does happen because bidding plays on people's emotions.
Edited by Zed#1489 on 11/20/2012 2:57 PM PST
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at last, right persons came here and got the idea of this topic.
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Are you also so naive to think that, if someone were only willing to pay 100m for it when they placed the bid, at the end of the auction knowing they might lose it at 101m that their estimation and what they are actually willing to pay might increase in a moment of emotional impulse?


The fatal flaw here is that you don't know how many extra bids you might need. So you decide your max is 100M. Then someone bumps it by one increment. Well, surely you can afford one more bid right? Then you get outbid again. Do you bid once more? Now you're over 120M, an increase of 20% over your maximum. Solution, set your max and stick to it.
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Since sellers can drive up their own prices, I don't want to bid the most I am willing to pay because chances are, that is what i'm going to pay.

Why should someone be labelled a cheapskate noob because they want to pay as little as possible for whatever it is they are buying? IMO, the auction house should be designed so that the buyers can get the item for as cheap as possible and the seller should get the most they can for an item. I realize that it sounds contradictory, but all it really means is that a system should be in place that cannot be exploited. As it stands, the AH can be exploited, so its either going to favor the buyer or the seller, but not both. Right now, it favors the seller.

Now, if sellers were not able to figure out the current maximum bid, then the current system would be sufficient. Prices would not be artificially high (at least not without the risk of the seller actually making the max bid themselves) and people would feel more comfortable with bidding the most they would be willing to pay (as everyone says to do).

My only solution is to get rid of the amount that a bid is increased and let people bid 1g more than previous bidder. If I bid 5,000,000 gold and it puts my bid in at 4,000,001, i (and everyone else) will know for a fact that the previous bid was 4,000,000, but that doesn't help me one bit. The current maximum bid is still only known by me (and big brother blizzard).

52
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Are you also so naive to think that, if someone were only willing to pay 100m for it when they placed the bid, at the end of the auction knowing they might lose it at 101m that their estimation and what they are actually willing to pay might increase in a moment of emotional impulse?


The fatal flaw here is that you don't know how many extra bids you might need. So you decide your max is 100M. Then someone bumps it by one increment. Well, surely you can afford one more bid right? Then you get outbid again. Do you bid once more? Now you're over 120M, an increase of 20% over your maximum. Solution, set your max and stick to it.


Wrong, that's slippery slope fallacy.

If you're willing to bid 120M in the heat of the auction, when 100M was your max bid before that impulse came to, than 120M could be your actual true max it just took an emotional impulse to bring it about. That doesn't automatically mean the auction will run forever between the two bidders until one of them runs out of money, it just means you can't know what your true max is from one standstill isolated event of determining a max bid when 36 hours are left, because an auction bid war could fuel that max higher. Doesn't mean it grows infinitely higher with no ceiling (or how much gold you actually have). I can have 500M, but still choose to stop at 120M. All that does is mean 120M is my actual true max bid, but I never would have known that the way the auction house is designed now. You can't argue anymore that 100M is my true max bid, when a non-threatening emotional circumstance made my desire to bid 120M came about. Obviously, if that's really true, 120M is the actual max bid. Maybe I only thought 100M was my max because I previously believed no one else would pay that much for it?

The "bid the max you'd be willing to pay" argument is still a negligent one that ignores these emotionally charged circumstances, and one that doesn't even have a good reason to persist.

I'd also like to bring up the point that if the auction house should just be everyone placing in their bids for "the max they'd be willing to pay" why is it designed with real time in mind? It might as well just count down the 36 hours, accept everyone's max bid, not show anyone (even the seller) what those bids are, and just give the item to the highest bidder when the timer runs out. The fact is, IT DOESN'T DO THIS. It allows the bid to be increased in real time, and allows that bid to be shown by everyone and be outbid on the spot. If it's going to be designed that way, it needs to allow a fluent bidding system that doesn't just end when the timers up, it needs to encourage twitch bids.

The auction house now is designed poorly, because it wants people to outbid each other in real time, but not to the point where it actually counts, in the last few minutes of the auction when things get heated. It'd rather everyone just snipe in the last few seconds. Really bad design flaw.
Edited by Zed#1489 on 11/20/2012 4:52 PM PST
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The "max amount you'd be willing to pay" fluctuates based on circumstances. The current AH set-up diminishes this emotional factoring process of circumstance. The max amount you'd pay is probably different in the heat of a bidding war than when the auction has over one day left. The current way the AH is set up doesn't cater to this dynamic. Everyone instead just holds off on bidding altogether and scrambles to bid at the last second like a pack of wolves. It's just sloppy and there's no reason for it.

In no real life auction would the auctioneer say "TIMES UP! NO MORE BIDS BECAUSE THIS ARBITRARY SET OF TIME HAS CONCLUDED!" when bidding is still in process.


These are great quotes
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What i'm getting from the OP is that if he wants to up his original bid of 100m he should just be able to add the 20m to it and not need an additional 100m plus his 20m to basically become the new top bidder at 120m. The problem is that the original 100m he bid is no longer his until he is outbid or loses the auction making it impossible to add to his bid unless his total wealth was double. So... even if he wants to just increase his max bid he cant unless he managed to acquire 120m instead of just the 20m he earned in between the time he placed it originally and the current moment.

I am pretty sure this was the point the OP was trying to make from the start but unless I missed someone stating this all I see is a bunch of troll know-it-alls that have trouble reading between the lines and missing his entire point completely. (I don't know the answer to this one but does E-bay collect the money and hold it in limbo until you either win or outbid or do they charge you after the auction is won.) I understand why D3 does it as a precaution to prevent people bidding more than they have but if you have a little more to add in the remainder of the 36 hours then you should be able to add just that amount.
Im sure that some of you will still miss the point and others may get it and easily find a way to troll what i've said as you take pride in sharp wit and condescending treatment of others you do not understand.
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Wrong, that's slippery slope fallacy.


It's not a fallacy, but it is a slippery slope. One that bidders would be wise to avoid, but is easy to slide down, especially in the heat of the moment.

Maybe we're discussing different points. My point is that when someone argues that the auction should be extended because you'd surely want to make one more bid, its not that simple. You don't know how many more bids it might take, and it can be easy to fall down that slippery slope and pay a lot more than you wanted to.
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Bid the MAXIMUM you are willing to spend on the item. Then you never have to watch the auction in progress and you are free to do whatever you want until it's over. Then check the if you won or lost and for how much and continue on with your life. There is no disadvantage for doing it this way and no one can trick you or cheat you out of what you were willing to pay. If someone else wins they were simply ultimately willing to spend more on the item than you were and they deserve it. I mean, this is such a simple concept it makes me cringe to think of how dumb so many people are that it's argued back and forth for so many pages.
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Bidding the maximum you are willing to spend is the best option, but when you bid all you have even though you are willing to spend more you should still have the ability to add to it without needing to fully re-bid on your own bid. While your money is in purgatory so to speak you should be able to throw some additional money into purgatory without basically doubling up to increase the maximum you are willing to spend.

The only flaw in the system is not being able to in his case add 20m to the bid he already had. He could not do this 30 minutes before or 30 seconds before unless he got back the money from the original bid which he was unable to get back until 3 seconds before auction end.
Edited by RubA535#1435 on 11/20/2012 5:47 PM PST
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