Diablo® III

HOTA / WW - MP10 Vid

I don't post on forums anymore but this is making my eyes bleed
You like using both ww and hota (which is not the best given but ok ) but why gimp yourself by using a skill such as ground stomp which has a cooldown instead of simply using bash
The best ww build
ww + overpower killing spree + bash/frenzy (tho i prefer bash onslaught)

and
the best hota build

hota + frenzy maniac + overpower + rend bloodlust

Why reinvent the wheel i don't know.
Edited by Gdop8#2211 on 11/19/2012 9:06 PM PST
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I don't post on forums anymore but this is making my eyes bleed
You like using both ww and hota (which is not the best given but ok ) but why gimp yourself by using a skill such as ground stomp which has a cooldown instead of simply using bash
The best ww build
ww + overpower killing spree + bash/frenzy (tho i prefer bash onslaught)

and
the best hota build

hota + frenzy maniac + overpower + rend bloodlust

Why reinvent the wheel i don't know.


Why use bash? It's a waste of a skill slot other than fury generation with HoTA hitting 3x harder. No one uses bash these days. If people use builders, they use Frenzy - maniac. Check out Detox's latest video.

Mind as well go WW / OP Killing Spree / HoTA if you need to.
Edited by DAKKON#6113 on 11/19/2012 9:42 PM PST
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Loving the fact that you achieved the 5 frame breakpoint with your OH, grats to that. Also the fact that you use Smash as primary, something that I´ve had in mind as well, to achieve eventually.

I was wondering if running ik5 set bonus + unforgiving wouldn´t allow you to drop Stomp and go Rend for one of the the most offensive skillsets out there (I´m aware of the IAS restrictions of the ik set). Note that I don´t even know if it gives you 4 fury per second, I should figure that out first before planning anything.
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@DAKKON -- You know you did something right when Nubtro praises you.
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Pros:

-You gain a single target damage ability better than bash or tornadoes or ww.
-You gain a CC ability usable every 12 seconds.

Cons:

-You lose 10% critical hit chance and the OPs instant damage.
-You lose damage because you need to use for example SoJ to reduce fury cost of HotA.
-You lose the damage buff of bash or frenzy.
-You lose the always available fury generator and only have one with 12 sec cooldown unless you want to hit mobs with hota without fury.
-HotA really is a single target damage ability. Even if you manage to to pull all the mobs in a tight space(normally does not happen with ground stomp) where you would be able to hota them all, it would only be that 4 seconds and you would probably need to reposition yourself first.

Something to think also:

How much better is HotA compared to circling your enemy with tornadoes + hitting with bash when your tornadoes are ticking?

And like someone said.. it's just stupid to farm mp10 and in lower mps you don't need HotA.

Only thing that could be worth testing is using ground stomp in lower mp farming to see if it can out perform OP by pulling the enemies close to each other but I don't think so since you move so quickly anyway in DT build and your tornadoes are constantly hitting something somewhere in the pack even if it's not a tight pack.
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i like the concept of the build decided to try it out a bit

fury seems to be a huge problem (using skorn) compare to my current build

and i thought WW would give better synergy with sprint RTLW compare to charge w/ merciless assault. But i did not notice any difference.

Is this build simply not optimal for 2hander?
Edited by Kenkoko1209#1140 on 11/20/2012 2:34 AM PST
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Hi Kenkoko,
it still works. I have full IK set and it helps the fury generation.
I've also make use of animosity to further increase the fury generations.
Only problem I have is the vitality and all resistance. I definitely needs to increase it in later upgrades.
currently mp10 is starting to be workable for me.
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Hi KFC,
yes it still works, i still killed 5 packs and keywarden
and i am already using animosity.

but i cant keep WoTB up when it gets down to 2 targets

in my current build, i can sustain it even with 1

my build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#ZSUPRc!ZYW!ZZZcYZ

are you able to sustain WoTB?
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Loving the fact that you achieved the 5 frame breakpoint with your OH, grats to that. Also the fact that you use Smash as primary, something that I´ve had in mind as well, to achieve eventually.

I was wondering if running ik5 set bonus + unforgiving wouldn´t allow you to drop Stomp and go Rend for one of the the most offensive skillsets out there (I´m aware of the IAS restrictions of the ik set). Note that I don´t even know if it gives you 4 fury per second, I should figure that out first before planning anything.


Thanks. To be quite honest, your thread on WW breakpoints is the single biggest contribution to the barb forums for me. All my gearing decision is trying to meet the next breakpoint for both MH / OH. Results needless to say, have been pleasant.

The fast attack speeds on both hands means you can run WoTB using a mighty weapon without using Into the Fray.

Video of maintaining WoTB without ITF on MP10. - http://youtu.be/bdIpjLKlZN8 (I substitute ITF for Bloodshed). It opens up potential build options.

Regarding Rend, I am still debating the usefulness of this since it's primarily based on Weapon Damage (IAS has no effect here). In response to IK 5 Set + Unforgiving, I am fairly certain that the 2 effects stack although IK 5 Set requires engagement with mobs before coming into effect.

I just happen to really like Ground Stomp as both an offensive and defensive tool.
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Pros:

-You gain a single target damage ability better than bash or tornadoes or ww.
-You gain a CC ability usable every 12 seconds.

Cons:

-You lose 10% critical hit chance and the OPs instant damage. Dakkon: OP is good and most people would have this as the goto option instead of Ground Stomp.
-You lose damage because you need to use for example SoJ to reduce fury cost of HotA. Dakkon: Wrong. SoJ is still BiS vs elites. Use a DPS calculator. No one really cares about trash.
-You lose the damage buff of bash or frenzy. Dakkon: You can choose OP or bash / frenzy. Not both. It's a wasted slot to have 2 builders since HoTA is effectively my builder.
-You lose the always available fury generator and only have one with 12 sec cooldown unless you want to hit mobs with hota without fury. Dakkon: Watch the video. I do not need fury generators other than the first pull for Battle Rage.
-HotA really is a single target damage ability. Even if you manage to to pull all the mobs in a tight space(normally does not happen with ground stomp) where you would be able to hota them all, it would only be that 4 seconds and you would probably need to reposition yourself first. Dakkon: HoTA is meant for ST. That's why it's a hybrid build with WW which is hands down the best AoE.

Something to think also:

How much better is HotA compared to circling your enemy with tornadoes + hitting with bash when your tornadoes are ticking? Dakkon: Absolutely no contest. HoTA >>>>> WW for ST damage. Watch Detox's video when he takes down Azmodan in 23 secs on MP10. And this is a mob where you can stack multiple tornados due to his size. For mobs like Occultist / Shamans, the difference is dramatic.

And like someone said.. it's just stupid to farm mp10 and in lower mps you don't need HotA.Dakkon: It's a personal preference. I am going to hit P100 sooner or later. I play the game for fun, not some contest on XP gain.


Only thing that could be worth testing is using ground stomp in lower mp farming to see if it can out perform OP by pulling the enemies close to each other but I don't think so since you move so quickly anyway in DT build and your tornadoes are constantly hitting something somewhere in the pack even if it's not a tight pack.


Response underlined.
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Dakkon: OP is good and most people would have this as the goto option instead of Ground Stomp.


So you admit Ground Stomp is worse than OP and yet you are recommending it? I don't get it.

Dakkon: Wrong. SoJ is still BiS vs elites. Use a DPS calculator. No one really cares about trash.


It's very close call. If I compare SoJ to my normal rare trifecta ring, I'm losing 21-22k damage. Which puts me from 120k+ to 100k damage which again is quite directly 20% less. SoJ only boosts elite damage by 20-29% or so. I happen to have quite a good SoJ with 28% if I remember right but yeah that's only about 6% difference in elites and 20%+ difference in trash mobs. And you can't say no one cares about trash mobs if you do mp10 where even trash mobs take some time to kill. Also sheet dps does not take into account the damage increase of tornadoes from the attack speed on the rare ring. So the difference is not 6%, it's even less.

Dakkon: You can choose OP or bash / frenzy. Not both. It's a wasted slot to have 2 builders since HoTA is effectively my builder.


I don't understand this answer. All I said was that since you are not using bash nor frenzy, you are losing the damage buff from them which you would have if you would be a WW barb or a HotA barb and not a WW+hota barb.

All in all, for getting stomp(as you need a fury generator), you are missing on OP killing spree 10% critical hit chance damage bonus and as you want both - hota and ww, you are missing on frenzy or bash damage buff. Which means you are giving up on 2 damage buffs to be able to do different kind of damage to different kind of opponents and I don't know if it's worth it to lose that much dps when there's only few cases when you need to hota over WW.

Dakkon: Watch the video. I do not need fury generators other than the first pull for Battle Rage.


I did watch and I did test it. I did not like the fact that I could not get fury up from breakable stuff on the ground to make wotb last longer and get fury to run faster to the next pack. And I must say ground stomp is really a waste of skill slot since it's 4 sec stun every 12 seconds, which means that for 8 seconds it's completely unusable skill.

Dakkon: It's a personal preference. I am going to hit P100 sooner or later. I play the game for fun, not some contest on XP gain.


I did not mean the xp gain. I do not care about the xp either. But I do not want to farm on mp10 where it's slow as hell compared to mp6 for example and between those 2, you can't even notice the difference between loots. So it's just stupid to farm on mp10 which takes ages and you most probably get as bad drops as in mp6. To me the fun in this game is getting nice drops, I don't know about you though.. maybe you like to grind the same mobs for even longer than you would have to.. :P

Also noticed when I tested the build that I died a lot more than with normal WW. I don't know if it's because my damage was less and life steal did not give as much back or maybe it was because you need to stop in place when you hammer a succubus or something.. when you stand still, everything hits you. The advantage in just purely spinning is that you never stay in one place for more than 0.0001 seconds. And if something takes a bit longer to kill than expected, your tornadoes are gone and you start from scratch. Not having your tornadoes up and running is a HUGE EHP loss so you need SICK gear to pull this build off and by looking at your gear, you do have a SICK amount of all resist compared to normal every day barb.
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So you admit Ground Stomp is worse than OP and yet you are recommending it? I don't get it.


Try running OP: Killing Spree / HoTA / WW and tell me if you can cast battle rage without having IK 5 Set or Unforgiving. You would likely die first. You have ZERO fury generators here. I recognize you say that you need a builder, but having a builder with HoTA is a waste of a skill slot.

It's very close call. If I compare SoJ to my normal rare trifecta ring, I'm losing 21-22k damage. Which puts me from 120k+ to 100k damage which again is quite directly 20% less. SoJ only boosts elite damage by 20-29% or so. I happen to have quite a good SoJ with 28% if I remember right but yeah that's only about 6% difference in elites and 20%+ difference in trash mobs. And you can't say no one cares about trash mobs if you do mp10 where even trash mobs take some time to kill. Also sheet dps does not take into account the damage increase of tornadoes from the attack speed on the rare ring. So the difference is not 6%, it's even less.


I ran a test with ZEBQ's gear. His is the #1 barb on DPS. SoJ is an 8.8% DPS increase over his best ring.

Regarding tDPS on rings, it's a valid comment. But I hit both the max breakpoints in my setup (3.37 APS on OH) for 12 ticks. The next hurdle is 4 APS which is 9% IAS is not going to help.

And trash mobs die too fast still. I would rather have trash mobs around in a difficult elite pull then kill them faster and having to deal with the elite.

I don't understand this answer. All I said was that since you are not using bash nor frenzy, you are losing the damage buff from them which you would have if you would be a WW barb or a HotA barb and not a WW+hota barb.


HoTA is widely acknowledged as the best ST DPS. As I said, you need to look at Detox's video. You can have 50% more damage buff (instead of 20%) from frenzy / bash and it's not going to come even remotely close to the killing speed.

All in all, for getting stomp(as you need a fury generator), you are missing on OP killing spree 10% critical hit chance damage bonus and as you want both - hota and ww, you are missing on frenzy or bash damage buff. Which means you are giving up on 2 damage buffs to be able to do different kind of damage to different kind of opponents and I don't know if it's worth it to lose that much dps when there's only few cases when you need to hota over WW.


Valid comment. I can see where you are coming from but to each his own. Majority of barbs use HoTA over bash / frenzy these days.

I did watch and I did test it. I did not like the fact that I could not get fury up from breakable stuff on the ground to make wotb last longer and get fury to run faster to the next pack. And I must say ground stomp is really a waste of skill slot since it's 4 sec stun every 12 seconds, which means that for 8 seconds it's completely unusable skill.


Why is fury an issue? Other than the first 5 ses of a pull, fury is a non-issue.

I did not mean the xp gain. I do not care about the xp either. But I do not want to farm on mp10 where it's slow as hell compared to mp6 for example and between those 2, you can't even notice the difference between loots. So it's just stupid to farm on mp10 which takes ages and you most probably get as bad drops as in mp6. To me the fun in this game is getting nice drops, I don't know about you though.. maybe you like to grind the same mobs for even longer than you would have to.. :P.


I normally prefer to farm on MP8 (half the life!). This is just a video since most benchmarks for build potential are done of MP10.

Also noticed when I tested the build that I died a lot more than with normal WW. I don't know if it's because my damage was less and life steal did not give as much back or maybe it was because you need to stop in place when you hammer a succubus or something.. when you stand still, everything hits you. The advantage in just purely spinning is that you never stay in one place for more than 0.0001 seconds. And if something takes a bit longer to kill than expected, your tornadoes are gone and you start from scratch. Not having your tornadoes up and running is a HUGE EHP loss so you need SICK gear to pull this build off and by looking at your gear, you do have a SICK amount of all resist compared to normal every day barb.


It takes awhile to get used to. But once you are used to HoTA, no other ST ability comes close. Challenge: Try killing Belial at MP10 with WW. You would likely hit enrage.

It's especially useful vs Kiting bosses which is the only difficult boss left in the game .
Edited by DAKKON#6113 on 11/20/2012 3:49 PM PST
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Nice video. But why ground stomp?? Wouldnt it be better to use Overpower with crushing advance for more survivability?
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11/20/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Zakku
Nice video. But why ground stomp?? Wouldnt it be better to use Overpower with crushing advance for more survivability?


Need fury. Can use OP: Killing Spree / Crushing Advance. But would need to swap out the Life Steal passive for unforgiving.

Ground Stomp is actually very good (especially vs Kiters). It's offensive and defensive capabilities is vastly underrated. It stuns for 1/3 of the time so that's close to 33% damage reduction. Not to mention that you have maximum DPS uptime on them when stun. This is invaluable against Shamans / Occultists.
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Posts: 72
I love this build, especially the ground stomp. It is very useful for irritating running elite packs, especially when running with echoing fury.

The gear requirements are pretty steep tho :(
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Regarding Rend, I am still debating the usefulness of this since it's primarily based on Weapon Damage (IAS has no effect here). In response to IK 5 Set + Unforgiving, I am fairly certain that the 2 effects stack although IK 5 Set requires engagement with mobs before coming into effect.


Actually, I just bought missing IK pieces for the lowest price to figure out the bonus.

Fury DEgeneration starts 10 seconds after your last hit, be it breakable object or a monster. The rate is -1 fury each 30 frames so at 60fps you lose 2 fury per second.

IK5 set bonus is the exact opposite of fury degeneration, so +1 fury each 30 frames, you gain 2 fury per second.

These two effects apply at the same time in real time. When you hit an object, degeneration is canceled and you get a steady +2 fury per second from the set bonus.

Here´s the more interesting stuff. IK5 set bonus gets boosted by both Templar´s Inspire skill (+8%) and Animosity (+20%), so you get up to 2.56 fury per second from the bonus.

Also note that the game uses at least decimal numbers for fury globe. I just tested it and hitting ashes with Instigation and Mighty Weapons master with Inspire generated 16-16-16-16-17=81 fury in five hits, which means 15*1.08 = 16.2 fury per hit.

Unforgiving is slightly different that IK bonus because it straight up cancels degeneration just like when you hit something and gives you +2 fury per second (1 fury each 30 frames). Not only that, but Unforgiving ALSO gets boosted by both Animosity and Inspire.

Long story short, IK5 set bonus + Unforgiving + Animosity + Inspire generates 5.12 fury per second, which is pretty sick. The exact game mechanics are a bit confusing, but let me just say that the fury gen tick frequency gets boosted (frame length of the +1 fury tick gets shorter), it´s around 12 frames per +1 fury at the above set up.

Even more packed version:
Fury degen -2 per second.
IK5 +2 per second.
Hit object degen canceled for 10 seconds.
Unforgiving +2 per second and cancels degen.
IK5 + Unforgiving = +4 per second no matter the circumstances.
Animosity and Templar Inspire boost both IK and Unforgiving fury generation.


For people using IK5 set with a Mighty Weapon to Smash, it could be more beneficial to use Animosity (+4% Smash crit +20% fury gen) over Weapons Master (3fury proc). It´s possible to calculate fury gen per second for each skillset.

Example 100% crit Smash
ITF = 0.8 * 15 = 12
Animosity = 12 * 1.2 = 14.4
Mighty Weapons Master = 12 + (3*0.8) = 14.4

90%/94% crit Smash
ITF = 10.8 / 11.28
Animosity = 11.28 * 1.2 = 13.536
MWM = 10.8 + (3*0.8) = 13.2
etc.

Same can be calculated for WW and RLTW (fury per tick or fury per second) or any other skill pretty much.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 11/21/2012 7:11 AM PST
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Wow I actually really like this so far. I only had a minute to test it out, but I do actually gen fury when using hota, at least around a few enemies, and being that it's on my main attack button (l-mouse) when I'm out of fury, it just does normal attacks to gen fury. As long as BR is on, it seems like a few attacks is all you need to get the hota train started. I'm using Animosity as my passive, but might try playing with the other suggestions later on my lunch.

Interested to see how well this does. Going to be a little painful without war cry.. but maybe i an replace ground stomp with warcry later on if it's not necessary.
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I love this build, especially the ground stomp. It is very useful for irritating running elite packs, especially when running with echoing fury.

The gear requirements are pretty steep tho :(


Wow I actually really like this so far. I only had a minute to test it out, but I do actually gen fury when using hota, at least around a few enemies, and being that it's on my main attack button (l-mouse) when I'm out of fury, it just does normal attacks to gen fury. As long as BR is on, it seems like a few attacks is all you need to get the hota train started. I'm using Animosity as my passive, but might try playing with the other suggestions later on my lunch.

Interested to see how well this does. Going to be a little painful without war cry.. but maybe i an replace ground stomp with warcry later on if it's not necessary.


Glad you guys are enjoying the build. HoTA as a primary attack is really strong. With a large fury globe, you can have greater than 100% crit on HoTA (as pointed out by WRATHFORCE) especially if you are using Animosity.

Ground Stomp is Optional. I personally really like it due to the ability to stun and maximize DPS against annoying packs. Against tough Reflect Damage packs, I ground stomp and try to maximize damage before the stun wears off. Following which I turtle and rinse and repeat. The stun IMO is invaluable.
Edited by DAKKON#6113 on 11/21/2012 8:44 AM PST
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Regarding Rend, I am still debating the usefulness of this since it's primarily based on Weapon Damage (IAS has no effect here). In response to IK 5 Set + Unforgiving, I am fairly certain that the 2 effects stack although IK 5 Set requires engagement with mobs before coming into effect.


Actually, I just bought missing IK pieces for the lowest price to figure out the bonus.

Fury DEgeneration starts 10 seconds after your last hit, be it breakable object or a monster. The rate is -1 fury each 30 frames so at 60fps you lose 2 fury per second.

IK5 set bonus is the exact opposite of fury degeneration, so +1 fury each 30 frames, you gain 2 fury per second.

These two effects apply at the same time in real time. When you hit an object, degeneration is canceled and you get a steady +2 fury per second from the set bonus.

Here´s the more interesting stuff. IK5 set bonus gets boosted by both Templar´s Inspire skill (+8%) and Animosity (+20%), so you get up to 2.56 fury per second from the bonus.

Also note that the game uses at least decimal numbers for fury globe. I just tested it and hitting ashes with Instigation and Mighty Weapons master with Inspire generated 16-16-16-16-17=81 fury in five hits, which means 15*1.08 = 16.2 fury per hit.

Unforgiving is slightly different that IK bonus because it straight up cancels degeneration just like when you hit something and gives you +2 fury per second (1 fury each 30 frames). Not only that, but Unforgiving ALSO gets boosted by both Animosity and Inspire.

Long story short, IK5 set bonus + Unforgiving + Animosity + Inspire generates 5.12 fury per second, which is pretty sick. The exact game mechanics are a bit confusing, but let me just say that the fury gen tick frequency gets boosted (frame length of the +1 fury tick gets shorter), it´s around 12 frames per +1 fury at the above set up.

Even more packed version:
Fury degen -2 per second.
IK5 +2 per second.
Hit object degen canceled for 10 seconds.
Unforgiving +2 per second and cancels degen.
IK5 + Unforgiving = +4 per second no matter the circumstances.
Animosity and Templar Inspire boost both IK and Unforgiving fury generation.


For people using IK5 set with a Mighty Weapon to Smash, it could be more beneficial to use Animosity (+4% Smash crit +20% fury gen) over Weapons Master (3fury proc). It´s possible to calculate fury gen per second for each skillset.

Example 100% crit Smash
ITF = 0.8 * 15 = 12
Animosity = 12 * 1.2 = 14.4
Mighty Weapons Master = 12 + (3*0.8) = 14.4

90%/94% crit Smash
ITF = 10.8 / 11.28
Animosity = 11.28 * 1.2 = 13.536
MWM = 10.8 + (3*0.8) = 13.2
etc.

Same can be calculated for WW and RLTW (fury per tick or fury per second) or any other skill pretty much.


By all that is holy, do you happen to be a mathematician of some sort? Thats a fair bit of data mining there!
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lol I´m far from mathematician (I can´t do difficult math at all, you wouldn´t believe me if I told you what my IRL profession is, hint: law...) but I just happen to like to figure out game mechanics. I used fraps (which helped me figure out the whole WW/RLTW thing) to view the fury generation frame by frame, I didn´t data mine anything.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 11/21/2012 9:18 AM PST
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