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So I figured I would compare Archon to WOTB/WW/RLTW barb.
Archon : 40% more resists and armor.
Rune : 25% more damage from skills
Lasts 15 seconds. Every Enemy killed adds 1 second
Disintegrate does 300% weapon damage (375% with rune)
Melee does 250% damage (312.5% with rune) (small area) knockback (doesn t work against all mobs/elites)
Then I use 3 slots for :
Force weapon : 10% more damage + 1.5% Life Steal from rune (we can t get a lot of that)
Sparkflint : 12% more damage + 20% weapon damage missile.
Energy armor : 35% more armor + 25% more all resist
Then 2 slots for :
Diamondskin (crystal shell) : Absorb 21k damage. when Archon wears off, you ll need that
Energy twister (Wickedwind) : 252% weapon damage over 6 seconds. most decent way to reduce cooldown of Archon
Critical mass : chance to reduce cooldowns by 1 sec on crits
Glass Cannon : 15% more damage. 10% less resistances and armor
Blur : reduces melee damage by 20%
For this to be efficient, you need to stack a lot of Attack Speed and Crit Chance (on almost every pieces, including legends)
Now for Barbarian :
Wrath of the Berserker : lasts 15 seconds
Critical hit chance : 10%
Attack Speed : 25%
Dodge chance : 20%
Movement speed : 20%
Cannot be Impaired by CC skills
With Thrive on chaos : Every 25 fury spent adds 1 second to WOTB
Battle Rage : lasts 120 seconds
+ 15% more damage
+ 3% Critical hit chance
With into the fray : Critical hits have a chance to restore 15 fury
Whirlwind (hurricane) : Multiple attacks for 145% weapon damage. Move at 100% of movement speed.
Sprint (run like the wind) : + 40% movement speed. 60% damage for 3 seconds.
Bash (punish): 165% damage. 20% knockback. Generate 8 fury. Each attack increases damage by 8% for 5 seconds. Can stack to 3 times (24%)
War Cry (impunity): Increases Armor and resistances to you and allies by 20%. generate 20 fury.
Ruthless : + 5% critical hit chance + 50% critical hit damage
Weapon master : 15% increased damage / + 10% critical hit chance
Bloodthirst : + 3% Life steal
On gear : can stack up to 9% Life steal.
+25% armor (minus 10% from GC) 65% with Archon
+15% Resistances (minus 10% from GC) 55% with Archon
+37% damage (Sparkflint, Magic Weapon, Glass Cannon)
4.5% Life steal (if you get it on your weapon, but I ll get back to that)
+0% Movement speed
Critical hits have a chance to reduce cooldowns by 1 second
No buff to allies
Need to stop to attack
Criteria to keep Archon is to get kills
+20% armor (War cry)
+20% Resistances (War Cry)
+20% dodge (WOTB)
+20% Movement speed (WOTB)
+25% attack speed (WOTB)
+10% Crit Chance (WOTB)
Cannot be impaired to CC skills
+15% damage/ 10% Crit Chance (Weapon master)
+15% damage (battle rage))
+40% movement speed (sprint) Okay. you re not always on this, I know. We ll see.
+24% damage (bash). Okay. you re not always on this, I know.
No need to stop when attackin
+3% crit chance (battle rage)
+12% Life steal (if you max outg (whirlwind + sprint)
Critical hits have a chance to generate 15 fury.
Criteria to keep WOTB is generate 25 fury.
This is a resume of my thread Wizards vs Barbarians.
I don t want barbs nerfed, I want Wizards changed/buffed
What you are forgetting is that the only way for Barbarians to reduce the cooldown on WoTB is -30 sec with a passive. Since 1.05 it's really hard to keep WoTB up for 2min.
If archon runs out, wizards can just get a few critical mass procs to get it back asap. Also, Teleport/Wormhole to travel.
Also, barbarians rather use HoTA or Overpower instead of Warcry/Impunity, it's trash right now.
Wizards certainly deserve buffs, but don't try to make Barbs look even better than they are that's a lie.
I am a wiz.
I tried to compare those two before. I think Archon is not bad compare to WoTB (Trust me, I don't want to believe that but that is the truth)
The reason is:
Archon beam: 375% AOE weapon damage
WoTB: 20% ias, 10cc, which is roughly 40% more damage. If using with WW: 200% weapon damage
Archon: 40% more armor and AR, roughly 15% protection
WoTB: 20% protection with cc immunity
Archon: can't use protective spell (punishment), easy to refresh.
WoTB: more movement speed. But hard to refresh
The result is Archon is more offensive, while Wotb is more defensive. It is hard to say which is better
The reason you think Archon is bad is because barb's other skills/passives are much better.
Edited by Aurex#1978 on 11/19/2012 1:14 PM PST
you forget the 30% damage reduction on barbs, so they in the end are better here then wizards. Even if they get more resitances and armor eventually.
But with saying that, after the patch it has become very difficult to keep up WotB. Particularly if you lack attack speed or if you use twohanders.
The only buff Archon really needs is that self-buffs duration also gets extended by criticals so you aren't forced to drop archon mode in order to rebuff.
The real issue is this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794640449?page=1#2
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 11/19/2012 2:49 PM PST
WotB will always be better for tree reasons:
Can't be CCed (as you pointed out)
Contributes to the massive movement speed bonus of the barb (the second most important part of efficient farming is moving fast and let's face it barb is WAY faster then any other class)
And doesn't require you to kill anything. Meaning it isn't nearly as impacted by group play or killing really hard mobs. Archon is AMAZING for killing anything that dies in less then 2 seconds. But when in a group or fighting high MP monsters, like ubers, the buff can't be maintained and if you run a standard all buffs Archon build, the wizard is very vulnerable outside of Archon. There has been blue posts commenting on the diminishing returns of Archon. I wouldn't be surprised if changing the kill mechanic is something they have been considering.
WotB on the other hand is in all barb builds. And why not? The buff is ridiculous. You attack/move faster, get more crit and dodge, and you can't be CCed. I don't think that it's news to anyone that with Thrive on Chaos the buff can be maintained indefinitely in solo or group play, high or low MP, or when fighting a horde of mobs or just one single boss.
If you can't understand this massive advantage then I'm not the one who is being biased.
yes, because a passive for barbarians is clearly why a skill for wizard isn't good.
Ive played every class and by far the ability to not be CC'd while perma wrathing vs elites in fights, is what the biggest difference is.
If barb cant be CC'd in wrath, then why should archon be CC'd? Other classes have to constantly dodge frozen after frozen after frozen while barbs can just spin around in it, that alone is a world beater.
buff other classes leave barbs alone
Monks Serenity should offer 15 second immunity to CC's, WD's Spirit Walk shouldnt be "cancelled out" if they take damage on their old physical body
Edited by Raycist#1441 on 11/19/2012 3:34 PM PST
Archon's intended purpose is fast clearing of week mobs.
WOTB's intended purpose is for fighting strong elites.
Ultimately they are meant for different things.
Your beef should be directed at the inferior self-buffs and passives, non-existent proc rates and dismal skill damage multipliers wizards have.
Archon's intended purpose is fast clearing of week mobs.
the biggest problem here is that outside of Archon, Wizards have no real power builds. But didnt blizzard say next patch theyd buff regular wizard spells?
I think the problem here is that wizards are forced to play either Archon or CM, or hybrid, if they don't theyre grasping at straws. Every other wizard spell is amazingly pathetic besides the one arcane torrent spell that does 670% damage but you cant aim it.
Also Teleport sucks, and theres no real move speed boosts. Archon should have some sort of move speed boost + immunity to CC, problem solved.
now onto WD/DH/Monk..........
Edited by Raycist#1441 on 11/19/2012 3:38 PM PST
There is a huge difference between Archon and WOTB.
Archon "IS" your build.
WOTB "Supplements" your build.
In order for Archon to be at it's best you need to bring 2 specific skills and runes to increase the damage, 2 passives in which 1 will help refresh it better when it is on cooldown AKA CM, and 1 passive which will make it so you don't have to forcefully remove archon to recast your armor buff.
Not to mention Archon sucks in Co-op since you don't always get the killing blow.
Archon also sucks in higher MP without insanely High DPS and WOTB will always be good no matter what MP you are in and no matter what DPS you have.
My suggestions for making Archon better and viable in any MP and with any DPS is
1. Whatever armor spell you bring should be allowed to be recast while in Archon form. We have at minimum 2 extra skill slots in archon form and one of those spots could be reserved for an armor spell. And maybe the other free slot for Deactivate archon mode so we don't have to right-click the buff icon ABOVE the skill bar (sometimes it's hidden behind other buffs).
2. Allow 1 second of timer to be added to Archon whenever you get X Amount of crits in Archon form. 1/2 a second from a killing blow. Lower MP you will normally crit enough to keep it up even if things die in half a second. In Higher MP it allows you to sustain Archon without having to kill everything in 1 second. Also fixes issues with Co-Op usage fighting for the killing blows with other people.
Shoot even add an extra attribute to the CM passive that not only "MAY" reduce a skills cooldown by 1 second but also INCREASE a buffs duration by 1 second using the same proc. This would help with not having to rebuff armor spells constantly and wouldn't IMO break anything skill wise.
Edited by kilo#1474 on 11/19/2012 3:42 PM PST
As a paragon level 100 wizard with top tier gear, here is my perspective:
Archon is spectacular for clearing low level MP. With MP as high as 6, it's relatively easy to keep archon up almost indefinitely. I would not contest that archon is equal or better than WotB on low MP levels. The lower movement speed is annoying but that would be better dealt with through a change in the movement speed cap allowed from gear.
The problem with archon vs WotB is that archon scales poorly on high MP levels. With WotB, the barbarian is unfazed by affixes such as frozen (a killer on archon where you are instantly dead if you lose the life steal your damage provides) and is also capable of keeping WotB active in high MP levels (Fury generation is not harmed by higher monster life but archon requires constant kills to maintain - which is extremely useless in high MP levels.)
I would hate to see WotB nerfed - I think it's exactly where it should be. I would much rather see archon see a boost that causes it to be more useful on high MP levels (Some method with which to increase the duration that is possible to sustain on high MP levels) as well as better options with which to combat CC (Maybe add 75% reduction to archon).
Obviously given my character I'm quite biased on the matter but I do not think I am incorrect in asserting that barbarians have a distinct advantage when it comes to high MP levels.
Edited by God#1623 on 11/19/2012 3:43 PM PST
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