Diablo® III

Archon vs WOTB

As a paragon level 100 wizard with top tier gear, here is my perspective:

Archon is spectacular for clearing low level MP. With MP as high as 6, it's relatively easy to keep archon up almost indefinitely. I would not contest that archon is equal or better than WotB on low MP levels. The lower movement speed is annoying, but that would be better dealt with through a change in the movement speed cap allowed from gear.

The problem with archon vs WotB is that archon scales poorly on high MP levels. With WotB, the barbarian is unfazed by affixes such as frozen (a killer on archon where you are instantly dead if you lose the life steal your damage provides) and is also capable of keeping WotB active in high MP levels (Fury generation is not harmed by higher monster life but archon requires constant kills to maintain - which is extremely useless in high MP levels.)

I would hate to see WotB nerfed - I think it's exactly where it should be. I would much rather see archon see a boost that causes it to be more useful on high MP levels (Some method with which to increase the duration that is possible to sustain on high MP levels) as well as better options with which to combat CC (Maybe add 75% reduction to archon).

Obviously given my character I'm quite biased on the matter, but I do not think I am incorrect in asserting that barbarians have a distinct advantage when it comes to high MP levels.


What would you think of maybe increasing movement speed cap by 25% on Caster/Range classes? Seeing as Monk + Barb have -30% damage reduc, what if range classes could boost 25% more move speed?

It'd add alot of options to builds because of rings/legendaries with move speed on them
Reply Quote
You wizards are just a silly bunch (Lazy). At least with WW barb, you have to actually move to keep up your special; wizards just stand there and own while making mobs totally immobile at the same time.

Example wiz vid MP10 (If you look on youtube, you'll see several more vids just like this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMw-LtFme9M&feature=related

Barbs cannot stun-lock indefinitely to make kills. Wizards do not need immunity to CC because the mobs don't have a chance to use their CCs...
Reply Quote
You wizards are just a silly bunch (Lazy). At least with WW barb, you have to actually move to keep up your special; wizards just stand there and own while making mobs totally immobile at the same time.

Example wiz vid MP10 (If you look on youtube, you'll see several more vids just like this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMw-LtFme9M&feature=related

Barbs cannot stun-lock indefinitely to make kills. Wizards do not need immunity to CC because the mobs don't have a chance to use their CCs...


Cough cough

Title of the thread has nothing to do with Stunlock vs WW.

Cough Cough

Not to mention stunlock requires tons of expensive gear to even be viable. Like 2.6+ attack speed and 40% on gear crit chance.

That's besides the point. This thread is called ARCHON vs WOTB.

Skill vs Skill not Build vs Build.
Edited by kilo#1474 on 11/19/2012 3:52 PM PST
Reply Quote
What really sucks is the wait. At least with the PTR and blue posts about upcoming patches, we could anticipate and our theorycrafting would have some grounding. Anyway, +1
Reply Quote
You wizards are just a silly bunch (Lazy). At least with WW barb, you have to actually move to keep up your special; wizards just stand there and own while making mobs totally immobile at the same time.

Example wiz vid MP10 (If you look on youtube, you'll see several more vids just like this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMw-LtFme9M&feature=related

Barbs cannot stun-lock indefinitely to make kills. Wizards do not need immunity to CC because the mobs don't have a chance to use their CCs...


Cough cough

Title of the thread has nothing to do with Stunlock vs WW.

Cough Cough

Not to mention stunlock requires tons of expensive gear to even be viable. Like 2.6+ attack speed and 40% on gear crit chance.

That's besides the point. This thread is called ARCHON vs WOTB.

Skill vs Skill not Build vs Build.


Cough, cough indeed. You'll never see a Barb farm this efficiently on MP 10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0SNZXSc6A
Reply Quote


Cough cough

Title of the thread has nothing to do with Stunlock vs WW.

Cough Cough

Not to mention stunlock requires tons of expensive gear to even be viable. Like 2.6+ attack speed and 40% on gear crit chance.

That's besides the point. This thread is called ARCHON vs WOTB.

Skill vs Skill not Build vs Build.


Cough, cough indeed. You'll never see a Barb farm this efficiently on MP 10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0SNZXSc6A


IF a barb had 740k DPS it sure would. You keep missing the point. But that's ok there is no need to explain it again if you refuse to see it then that's on you.
Reply Quote
Posts: 94
The OP has some what of a point. Though its not much of one.
I have played my wizard from the start, and I'll admit I made some money on the RMah, and put some money into RMah for my wizard. All before the legendary drop rate was increased.
My personal feeling toward my wizard is hes finally starting to be strong. Of course that's only when I'm attacking. If I stutter, I'm dead. If I need to move from my spot, I open myself up to death. If you haven't guessed I'm a CM freeze build. This build allows me to play Mp-10(grouped) with the most comfort. Thing I love most from this build is the support given to my team mates.
I would not use Archon for anything above MP-4(grouped). The gear check required for above is stupid dumb in prices. Let alone the survive rate is even lower, not to mention the lap time for farming is a bit slower. Its awesome though for lesser Mp levels.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my Wizard. He's a good character, but my fresh barbarian is much more playable, over all, than my wizard. The ability to be able to attack while dodging incoming damage is a HUGE advantage towards damage output. Also the skills, and passives work perfectly towards the player's wanted play-style! Incredible.
None of the passive with the barbarian don't serve a purpose. Now add a well balanced set of skills and you have a great character to play. All and all, every thing about this character was well thought out. Not to mention that the gear stats required to play mp0 - mp3 requires only the drops gained from little amounts of farming with good deals on the AH.

Now to resume from the OP opinion. I agree Wizards need to be buffed up. Though not in the way of changing damages on skills. The revamp of many passives for the wizard would be the place to start. To many of the passives with Wizard only work on 1-2 skills, or type of damage, and not as a Whole towards the character. Barbarians make a perfect example of this with passives.
Beyond passives being changed. A natural increase to movement speed of 5-8% should be given to both WD and Wiz. Along with increased times on wizard's buffs.

With those changes, I could see more diverse character builds for Wizard class.

Before I post this. I also wish to comment on the band-aid that was Blizzards solution to build diversity in Inferno. Lowering the difficulty to infernal dose NOT equal more diversity. It only allows for smoother transition to MPL from Hell. One should be able to play any build in Inferno MPL with gear being your check for success.

Later....
Reply Quote
Posts: 94
You wizards are just a silly bunch (Lazy). At least with WW barb, you have to actually move to keep up your special; wizards just stand there and own while making mobs totally immobile at the same time.


Do you know the pain of playing this spec.... my fingers ache at the thought. Play it once, and then tell us how holding the mouse button feels afterwards.
Reply Quote
WotB will always be better for tree reasons:

Can't be CCed (as you pointed out)

Contributes to the massive movement speed bonus of the barb (the second most important part of efficient farming is moving fast and let's face it barb is WAY faster then any other class)

And doesn't require you to kill anything. Meaning it isn't nearly as impacted by group play or killing really hard mobs. Archon is AMAZING for killing anything that dies in less then 2 seconds. But when in a group or fighting high MP monsters, like ubers, the buff can't be maintained and if you run a standard all buffs Archon build, the wizard is very vulnerable outside of Archon. There has been blue posts commenting on the diminishing returns of Archon. I wouldn't be surprised if changing the kill mechanic is something they have been considering.

WotB on the other hand is in all barb builds. And why not? The buff is ridiculous. You attack/move faster, get more crit and dodge, and you can't be CCed. I don't think that it's news to anyone that with Thrive on Chaos the buff can be maintained indefinitely in solo or group play, high or low MP, or when fighting a horde of mobs or just one single boss.

If you can't understand this massive advantage then I'm not the one who is being biased.


i hate it when people post opinion as fact..

you are wrong and heres why.

not EVERY barbarian uses wotb.. .alot of non ww barbs dont use WOTB.

secondly... what did you say about not having archon on elites or bosses .... forgetting about critical mass t here buddy?

im a hybrid ww and i dont use bash OR WOTB....

now your going to tell me im playing my barbarian wrong and im weak for that? well ef you than prick.


I can see someone missed their nap. And I see you seemed to be confused over what the word 'fact' means. All my points are objective and are all FACTS. Your self-serving defensive rage does nothing to change that. And just because you took WotB off your barb before you posted to intentionally gimp your barb so you can have a pretense of a point is only proof that you know you have no argument.

As for Critical Mass... do you even know what that does? According to you CM is the Panacea that makes Archon viable against extreme high HP mobs. That must be why there are so many Archons killing ubers... oh wait.

Seems like you're the one who needs to sort out fact and opinion. Until then, rage on scrub.
Reply Quote
I can see someone missed their nap. And I see you seemed to be confused over what the word 'fact' means. All my points are objective and are all FACTS. Your self-serving defensive rage does nothing to change that. And just because you took WotB off your barb before you posted to intentionally gimp your barb so you can have a pretense of a point is only proof that you know you have no argument.

As for Critical Mass... do you even know what that does? According to you CM is the Panacea that makes Archon viable against extreme high HP mobs. That must be why there are so many Archons killing ubers... oh wait.

Seems like you're the one who needs to sort out fact and opinion. Until then, rage on scrub.


While your opinion on why Wrath is better than Archon are based on facts, its totally misleading.

It doesn't matter that Wrath is better than Archon. You cannot look at skills in a singular system without looking at them as a whole.

I can make an argument that CM is grossly overpowered simply because there is no skill that barb has that even comes close. The only skills that we have that can reduce a cooldown is overpower and that only pertains to itself. You have a passive that reduces the cooldown of EVERY skill in your arsenal. Could you imagine how grossly Overpowered Barb would be if it had a CM equivalent?

making a claim that one skill from one class is better than a similar skill from another class is irrelevant and pointless without looking at the context of each class.
Reply Quote
I can see someone missed their nap. And I see you seemed to be confused over what the word 'fact' means. All my points are objective and are all FACTS. Your self-serving defensive rage does nothing to change that. And just because you took WotB off your barb before you posted to intentionally gimp your barb so you can have a pretense of a point is only proof that you know you have no argument.

As for Critical Mass... do you even know what that does? According to you CM is the Panacea that makes Archon viable against extreme high HP mobs. That must be why there are so many Archons killing ubers... oh wait.

Seems like you're the one who needs to sort out fact and opinion. Until then, rage on scrub.


While your opinion on why Wrath is better than Archon are based on facts, its totally misleading.

It doesn't matter that Wrath is better than Archon. You cannot look at skills in a singular system without looking at them as a whole.

I can make an argument that CM is grossly overpowered simply because there is no skill that barb has that even comes close. The only skills that we have that can reduce a cooldown is overpower and that only pertains to itself. You have a passive that reduces the cooldown of EVERY skill in your arsenal. Could you imagine how grossly Overpowered Barb would be if it had a CM equivalent?

making a claim that one skill from one class is better than a similar skill from another class is irrelevant and pointless without looking at the context of each class.


While I don't entirely disagree that the context is important, when you put WotB in context of the whole barbarian package it's only more apparent how much better it is. I was only responding to the scope of the topic, my point being that in a vacuum WotB is vastly superior to Archon. In context with all the other class skills, the Barbarian is a much more powerful class then all the other classes.
Reply Quote


While your opinion on why Wrath is better than Archon are based on facts, its totally misleading.

It doesn't matter that Wrath is better than Archon. You cannot look at skills in a singular system without looking at them as a whole.

I can make an argument that CM is grossly overpowered simply because there is no skill that barb has that even comes close. The only skills that we have that can reduce a cooldown is overpower and that only pertains to itself. You have a passive that reduces the cooldown of EVERY skill in your arsenal. Could you imagine how grossly Overpowered Barb would be if it had a CM equivalent?

making a claim that one skill from one class is better than a similar skill from another class is irrelevant and pointless without looking at the context of each class.


While I don't entirely disagree that the context is important, when you put WotB in context of the whole barbarian package it's only more apparent how much better it is. I was only responding to the scope of the topic, my point being that in a vacuum WotB is vastly superior to Archon. In context with all the other class skills, the Barbarian is a much more powerful class then all the other classes.


WotB is better than Archon. Ok. But the idea that barbs are more OP than all other classes is still a bit wrong. First off, you're comparing the WW/RLTW spec which is already grossly OP. However if you look at the non WW/RLTW specs then you find that barbs aren't exactly OP.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/ranking/next/2/rating.stat_dps_unbuffed#rating_stat_dps_unbuffed
The top dps barb is ranked 74. The top dps Wizard is number 1.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/ranking/next/0#rating_stat_paragon_level
the top NON-WW/RLTW barb is ranked 39th in paragon. The top Wizard is number 10

What does this tell us?

Well it tells us that people are thinking that ALL barbs are OP when A. Barbs don't even have anywhere near the top dps unbuffed compared to all the other classes (even monk ranks before barb) and B. All barbs who are not WW/Nado are getting surpassed disproportionately not only by WW/Nado barbs, but all other classes.

in fact, according to this, Wizards are substantially stronger than all non-WW/Nado barbs
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/19/2012 6:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
Archon should also benefit from crits (longer duration) with proc coef of 0.5
Reply Quote


While I don't entirely disagree that the context is important, when you put WotB in context of the whole barbarian package it's only more apparent how much better it is. I was only responding to the scope of the topic, my point being that in a vacuum WotB is vastly superior to Archon. In context with all the other class skills, the Barbarian is a much more powerful class then all the other classes.


WotB is better than Archon. Ok. But the idea that barbs are more OP than all other classes is still a bit wrong. First off, you're comparing the WW/RLTW spec which is already grossly OP. However if you look at the non WW/RLTW specs then you find that barbs aren't exactly OP.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/ranking/next/2/rating.stat_dps_unbuffed#rating_stat_dps_unbuffed
The top dps barb is ranked 74. The top dps Wizard is number 1.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/ranking/next/0#rating_stat_paragon_level
the top NON-WW/RLTW barb is ranked 39th in paragon. The top Wizard is number 10

What does this tell us?

Well it tells us that people are thinking that ALL barbs are OP when A. Barbs don't even have anywhere near the top dps unbuffed compared to all the other classes (even monk ranks before barb) and B. All barbs who are not WW/Nado are getting surpassed disproportionately not only by WW/Nado barbs, but all other classes.

in fact, according to this, Wizards are substantially stronger than all non-WW/Nado barbs


Looking at unbuffed damage doesn't really mean anything. All it does it compares peoples gear relative to each other and it not a really good metric for the damage a specific toon actually does. Especially, unless they've changed something, the damage of WW and Sprint are based off of your MH only. Meaning you could OH a low damage stat stick which would tank your character sheet damage but would actually give you a large increase in DPS. Alkaiser used a 250 DPS OH with crazy str/cd/ll/socket if I remember correctly while he was leveling.

And what practical purpose does comparing unbuffed damage do anyways? While a barbs character damage may not increase much with the self buffs that class has, the damage a WD has spikes really high with the buffs that class has. Some guy got his character damage up to over 2 million. And even considering that, does that mean that WDs are way better then barbs since it's damage can get way higher? The comparison is not on point.
Reply Quote
Looking at unbuffed damage doesn't really mean anything. All it does it compares peoples gear relative to each other and it not a really good metric for the damage a specific toon actually does. Especially, unless they've changed something, the damage of WW and Sprint are based off of your MH only. Meaning you could OH a low damage stat stick which would tank your character sheet damage but would actually give you a large increase in DPS. Alkaiser used a 250 DPS OH with crazy str/cd/ll/socket if I remember correctly while he was leveling.

And what practical purpose does comparing unbuffed damage do anyways? While a barbs character damage may not increase much with the self buffs that class has, the damage a WD has spikes really high with the buffs that class has. Some guy got his character damage up to over 2 million. And even considering that, does that mean that WDs are way better then barbs since it's damage can get way higher? The comparison is not on point.


It also takes into account passives if i'm not mistaken. otherwise you'd have to explain why 11/20 are Wizards, 8/20 are DH, and the remaining is a WD. Unless you think that Wizards and DH have a predisposition to find more and better gear than WDs, Monks, and Barbs.

WW is based off of MH and OH so getting a good OH is still valuable. Even still, the top DPS barb has 2 pretty nice weapons with pretty high dps. If OH didn't mean anything then no one would opt for a 900+ OH and would just stick with good mainstats.

the practical purpose is this.

Wrath + BR is going to give at least a 50% dps bonus with 13% of that coming from CC

Archon + Spark Flint + Pinpoint Berrier + Force Weapon is going to give a 57% bonus with 5% of that coming from CC

So while Wizards are already starting out with a higher base damage, they are also getting a higher dps bonus. The only saving grace is that Wrath + BR is going to scale higher based on CD, but it's not going to allow the top barb to gain 400,000 dps to even match the Wizard
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/19/2012 6:54 PM PST
Reply Quote


Cough cough

Title of the thread has nothing to do with Stunlock vs WW.

Cough Cough

Not to mention stunlock requires tons of expensive gear to even be viable. Like 2.6+ attack speed and 40% on gear crit chance.

That's besides the point. This thread is called ARCHON vs WOTB.

Skill vs Skill not Build vs Build.


Cough, cough indeed. You'll never see a Barb farm this efficiently on MP 10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0SNZXSc6A

Cough Cough
your wizard video link is NalGangDoRTZ#3223 FrostBurn
dps wizard # 1
hero score wizard #1

Wayneold #1685 farming mp10
dps barb #12172
hero score barb #6454
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p56XSaqHYKY&feature=youtu.be
and this barb is able to farm efficient just as #1 wizard
/enough said

LOL
▄██████████████▄▐█▄▄▄▄█▌
██████▌▄▌▄▐▐▌███▌▀▀██▀▀
████▄█▌▄▌▄▐▐▌▀███▄▄█▌
▄▄▄▄▄██████████████▀

+
those who are saying keeping WOTB all the time is impossible should see the barb video.
WOTB is so easy to keep up all the time. IT'S YOUR BARB WHO SUCK
Edited by Kerrigan#1606 on 11/19/2012 7:21 PM PST
Reply Quote
So I figured I would compare Archon to WOTB/WW/RLTW barb.

Archon : 40% more resists and armor.
Rune : 25% more damage from skills
Lasts 15 seconds. Every Enemy killed adds 1 second
Disintegrate does 300% weapon damage (375% with rune)
Melee does 250% damage (312.5% with rune) (small area) knockback (doesn t work against all mobs/elites)

Then I use 3 slots for :

Force weapon : 10% more damage + 1.5% Life Steal from rune (we can t get a lot of that)
Sparkflint : 12% more damage + 20% weapon damage missile.
Energy armor : 35% more armor + 25% more all resist

Then 2 slots for :

Diamondskin (crystal shell) : Absorb 21k damage. when Archon wears off, you ll need that
Energy twister (Wickedwind) : 252% weapon damage over 6 seconds. most decent way to reduce cooldown of Archon

Passives :

Critical mass : chance to reduce cooldowns by 1 sec on crits
Glass Cannon : 15% more damage. 10% less resistances and armor
Blur : reduces melee damage by 20%

For this to be efficient, you need to stack a lot of Attack Speed and Crit Chance (on almost every pieces, including legends)

Now for Barbarian :

Wrath of the Berserker : lasts 15 seconds

Critical hit chance : 10%
Attack Speed : 25%
Dodge chance : 20%
Movement speed : 20%

Cannot be Impaired by CC skills

With Thrive on chaos : Every 25 fury spent adds 1 second to WOTB
Battle Rage : lasts 120 seconds

+ 15% more damage
+ 3% Critical hit chance

With into the fray : Critical hits have a chance to restore 15 fury

Whirlwind (hurricane) : Multiple attacks for 145% weapon damage. Move at 100% of movement speed.

Sprint (run like the wind) : + 40% movement speed. 60% damage for 3 seconds.

Bash (punish): 165% damage. 20% knockback. Generate 8 fury. Each attack increases damage by 8% for 5 seconds. Can stack to 3 times (24%)

War Cry (impunity): Increases Armor and resistances to you and allies by 20%. generate 20 fury.

Passives :

Ruthless : + 5% critical hit chance + 50% critical hit damage
Weapon master : 15% increased damage / + 10% critical hit chance
Bloodthirst : + 3% Life steal

On gear : can stack up to 9% Life steal.

So :

Wizard

+25% armor (minus 10% from GC) 65% with Archon
+15% Resistances (minus 10% from GC) 55% with Archon
+37% damage (Sparkflint, Magic Weapon, Glass Cannon)
4.5% Life steal (if you get it on your weapon, but I ll get back to that)
+0% Movement speed
Critical hits have a chance to reduce cooldowns by 1 second
No buff to allies
Need to stop to attack
Criteria to keep Archon is to get kills

Barbarians
+20% armor (War cry)
+20% Resistances (War Cry)
+20% dodge (WOTB)
+20% Movement speed (WOTB)
+25% attack speed (WOTB)
+10% Crit Chance (WOTB)
Cannot be impaired to CC skills
+15% damage/ 10% Crit Chance (Weapon master)
+15% damage (battle rage))
+40% movement speed (sprint) Okay. you re not always on this, I know. We ll see.
+24% damage (bash). Okay. you re not always on this, I know.
No need to stop when attackin
+3% crit chance (battle rage)
+12% Life steal (if you max outg (whirlwind + sprint)
Buffs Allies
Critical hits have a chance to generate 15 fury.
Criteria to keep WOTB is generate 25 fury.

This is a resume of my thread Wizards vs Barbarians.

I don t want barbs nerfed, I want Wizards changed/buffed


ur wrong, shows how much u know about barbs scrub
Reply Quote
While I have been calling for wizard buffs since 1.03, I feel that Archon itself does not need a buff directly. Buff the self-buffs and passives:

Glass cannon to 25% damage, keep the 10% armor and resist debuffs

Magic weapon base to 15%, electrify 100% chance to arc for 20% damage, force to 30%, blood to 3%, conduit to 10 APOC and venom to stacking 20% over 3 sec (slightly weaker than warcry)

Galvanizing wards to int/3 Hp per second, armor skill duration to 9001 years

Add 30% passive CC duration reduction to Unstable anomaly

Power hungry to also grant 10% attack speed for 5 seconds stackable to 5 stacks (similar to gruesome feast)

And so on. That way, wizard isn't just Archon or CM. Other builds can also work.
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,834
WOTB is better then archon in most situation because WOTB you need high crit chance to maintain the buff and Archon you need kills. So... against normal farming of mobs Archon is pretty good, otherwise if fighting bosses or harder elite packs WOTB is easier to maintain because it is so much more versatile.

I would say WOTB is better because the barbarian keeps their build, while Archon you have 3-4 skills and thus lose other skills that might be useful.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]