Diablo® III

I've realized something very powerful.

The vocal minority of the diablo 2 community has become the vocal majority in the diablo 3 community. Most topics on these forums are talking about how bad the game is, how broken the game is, how greedy Blizzard is, etc.

People who cry about RMAH stating that it shows how greedy Blizzard is to condone buying in game items seriously missed the point. These people either never played Diablo 2 or were living under a rock for 10+ years and didn't realize the buying/selling of blizzards intellectual property on 100s of different sites was a very big issue. D2anya? d2power? etc etc. Not to mention, a lot of people would get scammed by said sites. Blizzard's solution? Cut out the inevitable sale of their own property by third parties by allowing players to sell in game while taking a small cut off of every sale. Sounds absolutely reasonable to me. Not something to raise hell about.

Whatever blizzard does to this game is wrong. Literally every change has met criticism. I see people whining about AH flipping which is HILARIOUS because that's never been an issue (nor should it be) in any game that's utilized an AH. Now that the legendaries are actually worth a damn 'wtf now the game is broken'. People are constantly complaining about duping and bots saying that Blizzard doesn't care, when in actuality botting and duping is a huge problem in most mulitplayer games ESPECIALLY popular games. The reason why botting is so prevelant now a days is that a lot of people have realized how lucrative it is and there are literally 20+ man outfits now with rooms full of computers botting. Does this concern Blizzard? Of course it does, they don't have to come out and say it every time someone new wants to say otherwise.

I really just feel like these players are so fed up with their lives that they need something to be critical of. The game is not that bad, i'd actually say it's better than classic D2. If you are just going to whine about every little thing at least make it constructive; offer a solution maybe? Just spewing crap out of your mouth does nothing but make you an annoying 12 year old that no one wants to deal with, and if the game is really that bad that it makes you nerdrage soooo hard, you should probably just use some common sense and stop playing the game.
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Let me chime in as a person who as always been fundamentally against the notion of a RMAH (even though it has made me some nice hundreds of dollars and bought me a new snowboard for this season).

Your argument is that, if there is an established black market that operates behind the back of an authority that is philosophically against the nature of these trades, instead of combating this market, they should establish a framework in which this market thrives under their supervision.

A good analogy would be for the US government to up and sanction hit men, so that you wouldn't have to resort to dealing with something as shady as the Mafia when you need a hit performed, while incurring all the risks of such dealings. Just imagine that this happened tomorrow. People who like to say "I wish he were dead" would now have a government funded establishment that can legally perform this task for them. They no longer have to risk legal implications, nor the horrible side effects of being in debt to the mob. Hit Man killings would go up a thousandfold.

No, I'm not trying to paint real money item trading as something as bad as hired killing. I'm not even saying that both are bad things (the killing is, obviously). But this is a good analogy because these were both practices that the relevant authority figure was openly against. Real money trading was something Blizzard was always vehemently opposed to before D3, as they have stated that it ruins the integrity of the game.

The fact that they have sanctioned it means that this behaviour has proliferated at a far greater rate than it ever has when it was "black market". Most people who wanted to use real money transactions in games didn't do so because they had the regular inhibitions one has when they know they're doing illegitimate trades. Well now those people are feeling comfortable doing so.

Saying "it happened anyway, so at least Blizzard can control it" is a total cop out. When it was "illegal", it happened at a very minor rate, as you would expect illegal things to happen. Now that it's sanctioned, it's happening at a much higher rate. So you can't use that argument. You have to accept that the RMAH has turned this activity from scarce and shady to open and abundant. Just because Blizzard's open opposition to this behaviour didn't prevent it entirely, that doesn't mean that it wasn't completely effective in suppressing its volume by a great deal. This is the same concept as government enforcement of crime laws.

Now, the only thing you're left with is the question of whether or not you're philosophically for or against the paradigm of real money trading for gaming items. However, that is a purely subjective question, and not one for which anyone can truly get a firm edge in a debate. I personally am against it, you may be for it. However, you cannot argue that the existence of a Blizzard-sanctioned framework for this activity does anything to benefit those who are against it. It clearly does the opposite.
Edited by Bottle#1907 on 11/17/2012 7:11 AM PST
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11/17/2012 06:54 AMPosted by Bottle
A good analogy would be for the US government to up and sanction hit men, so that you wouldn't have to resort to dealing with something as shady as the Mafia when you need a hit performed, while incurring all the risks of such dealings. Just imagine that this happened tomorrow. People who like to say "I wish he were dead" would now have a government funded establishment that can legally perform this task for them. They no longer have to risk legal implications, nor the horrible side effects of being in debt to the mob. Hit Man killings would go up a thousandfold.


I think a better analogy was when the US took extra action to stop alcohol abuse by making it illegal. It actually caused people to drink more so they made it legal again.
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think a better analogy was when the US took extra action to stop alcohol abuse by making it illegal. It actually caused people to drink more so they made it legal again.


The Prohibition wasn't overruled because "people drank more". It was overruled because the Supreme Court actually came to their senses and realized that they had a law that was entirely motivated by religion, and they're supposed to be a secular nation.
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11/17/2012 07:23 AMPosted by Bottle
think a better analogy was when the US took extra action to stop alcohol abuse by making it illegal. It actually caused people to drink more so they made it legal again.


The Prohibition wasn't overruled because "people drank more". It was overruled because the Supreme Court actually came to their senses and realized that they had a law that was entirely motivated by religion, and they're supposed to be a secular nation.


from http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure I could probably find other sources as well

Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to !@#$%, ^-*!@#$%^, patent medicines, -*!@#$%, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition.


A very similar situation to the real money problem except for the usage amounts, which we cant measure. However, I feel that the majority of people who use the RMAH are players who use "money" they have received from selling items. That is, they sell a few expensive items, and purchase many less expensive ones.

Blizzard knows how much people go to 3rd party sites, as they have to dedicate MANY man hours due to the effects of them.
Edited by Brathearon#1214 on 11/17/2012 7:35 AM PST
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A good analogy would be for the US government to up and sanction hit men, so that you wouldn't have to resort to dealing with something as shady as the Mafia when you need a hit performed, while incurring all the risks of such dealings.


Morag Tong?

Anyway, a better analogy is the Prohibition.

For your hired murder analogy to work, it had to be as if Blizzard sells a device that lets you join anyone's game and PK them, in hardcore mode.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 11/17/2012 7:46 AM PST
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The vocal minority of the diablo 2 community has become the vocal majority in the diablo 3 community. Most topics on these forums are talking about how bad the game is, how broken the game is, how greedy Blizzard is, etc.

People who cry about RMAH stating that it shows how greedy Blizzard is to condone buying in game items seriously missed the point. These people either never played Diablo 2 or were living under a rock for 10+ years and didn't realize the buying/selling of blizzards intellectual property on 100s of different sites was a very big issue. D2anya? d2power? etc etc. Not to mention, a lot of people would get scammed by said sites. Blizzard's solution? Cut out the inevitable sale of their own property by third parties by allowing players to sell in game while taking a small cut off of every sale. Sounds absolutely reasonable to me. Not something to raise hell about.

Whatever blizzard does to this game is wrong. Literally every change has met criticism. I see people whining about AH flipping which is HILARIOUS because that's never been an issue (nor should it be) in any game that's utilized an AH. Now that the legendaries are actually worth a damn 'wtf now the game is broken'. People are constantly complaining about duping and bots saying that Blizzard doesn't care, when in actuality botting and duping is a huge problem in most mulitplayer games ESPECIALLY popular games. The reason why botting is so prevelant now a days is that a lot of people have realized how lucrative it is and there are literally 20+ man outfits now with rooms full of computers botting. Does this concern Blizzard? Of course it does, they don't have to come out and say it every time someone new wants to say otherwise.

I really just feel like these players are so fed up with their lives that they need something to be critical of. The game is not that bad, i'd actually say it's better than classic D2. If you are just going to whine about every little thing at least make it constructive; offer a solution maybe? Just spewing crap out of your mouth does nothing but make you an annoying 12 year old that no one wants to deal with, and if the game is really that bad that it makes you nerdrage soooo hard, you should probably just use some common sense and stop playing the game.


i think the biggest issue with the RMAH isnt so much so its blizzard controlled, (atleast not to me), but the fact that its a 15% cut of all transactions, and it isnt very secure. DRM protects from nothing, and if for whatever reason your computer shuts down due to a power outage, or its on its last leg, your money is gone, you get no transaction in return, but blizzard still takes its 15% cut. following up on that, if you happen to get scammed on the RMAH, blizzard has no idea which side was the problem side, (yet DRM is supposed to protect from this), so blizzard cancels both sides and still takes its 15% cut.

and yes, the RMAH, "pay 2 win" philosophy is exactly why the majority of people who dont like it, are against it. ANYONE with a bank account that has like 10 grand in it, will have top gear, and items with doing nothing. its diablo 3's answer to "welfare epics" from wow.

this is the reason behind myself not using the RMAH.
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to further elaborate on what someone said about patching to be more like diablo 2, well thats because diablo 2 and diablo 1 are better games, and they are seeing that the defining reason behind every problem is that the vanilla release, and design mentality behind diablo 3 itself was a failure. they must be seeing that whatever jay wilson was doing, was wrong, and didnt say anything becaues they raked in the bucks, so now that they made their money off the name, they can now produce quality since they made the quantity.

but it has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before i invest diablo 2 time into diablo 3.
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I'm going to make this simple for the OP:

The biggest reason a lot of people don't like the RMAH is because it drives the drop rates that Blizz implemented. They figured since people can buy gear, drop rates should be extremely low. Casual gamers like me didn't find legendaries for months, or not until 1.05 when I consider them "reasonable" drops - you don't find the most godly gear, but you actually see a legendary drop every once in a while, and the hard core players farm for the godliest of gear.

Third party sites didn't have any affect on D2's drop rates and Blizz didn't worry about it. What they failed to realize in D3 for the first 5 months, is they can and will make money on items with a reasonable drop rate; after a while, in D2 the grind was for the godliest items and if you didn't want to grind, you'd buy it. Same thing in D3... the money is made on godly items...

Creating your game around a real money function and virtual economy is not fun for a large majority of players. When you couldn't gear yourself without hitting walls in every act of hell because the loot was SO terrible you'd have to spend 100+ hours just to upgrade and progress, then yes, people get mad and say the company is greedy. There's no denying that pre-1.05 the game literally drove players to use the GAH or RMAH, and if they didn't they'd have to spend thousands of hours loot grinding just to move up an act or two. The reward for time spend grinding was a joke.
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The biggest reason a lot of people don't like the RMAH is because it drives the drop rates that Blizz implemented. They figured since people can buy gear, drop rates should be extremely low. Casual gamers like me didn't find legendaries for months, or not until 1.05 when I consider them "reasonable" drops - you don't find the most godly gear, but you actually see a legendary drop every once in a while, and the hard core players farm for the godliest of gear.


The drop rates are now EXTREMELY high. Perhaps even higher than they would have been if there had been no AH in D3 to begin with. This argument no longer works.
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In Classic d2, there were only a handful of uniques; most of which weren't end game pieces or even decent enough to consider wearing. I think people like to look at everything comparing this game to D2 LoD: which was a gigantic content pack.

Saying buying/selling of items in d2 was small and not a big deal is like saying botting in d2 was small and not a big deal. It was almost inescapable. Whining about blizzard taking a 15% cut (which, and I might be wrong, is only due to paypal transactions) on allowing you to sell their intellectual property that you literally have no rights to is pretty preposterous.

There is no agenda to force people to use RMAH - because there isn't a need. The drop-rate was never the problem, it was the difficulty of inferno that was almost asinine in conjunction with the choices of plausible items that could get you through the upper acts.

I swear, everyone wants to sensationalize everything.
Edited by Connekt#1803 on 11/17/2012 8:12 AM PST
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People like to complain. It's part of this new hipster douche-bag "I hate everything" generation. Or as I call them....generation 'Y'.

The loudest voices are always the voices of dissent.
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11/17/2012 06:54 AMPosted by Bottle
A good analogy would be for the US government to up and sanction hit men, so that you wouldn't have to resort to dealing with something as shady as the Mafia when you need a hit performed, while incurring all the risks of such dealings.


not a very good analogy, unless you are implying that the US government also owns said hitmen
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well in vanilla, and d2 lod, i loved both of them. i wasnt worried about getting the top tier gear, or character builds, i was more concerned in how when that shiny dropped, and it was useless, i was like, well there has to be more! then another shiny would drop taht i could use, id be like, oh ya, my build is going towork! then a million more i couldnt use! but i didnt care, gear itself wasnt the defining factor that actually kept me playing, what kept me playing was how dark, and dreary the landscape, and the setting was. then hearing tyrials voice for the first time, and saving dekard cain, again. stygians giving birth to babies right in front of my eyes! its nothign im creating, these are legitimate feelings i still have for the previous 2 diablo games. D1 and D2.

you get the pay pal fee, plus the blizzard fee in the rmah. if you use the battle.net balance but thats stupid because then i cant get my money out, i am locked into using that ONLY on blizzard products. so its either a 15% plus pay pal fee, or my money is locked into blizzard products, adn i can never get it out. even if i were to have like 800 bucks in there.

the best option for those that use the RMAH IS pay pal because you can get your money. but this doesnt explain the fact that blizzard still get its 15% cut if they have to cancel a transactin becuase of 3rd party software. which DRM is SUPPOSED to protect from.

http://kotaku.com/5906675/blizzard-will-take-a-big-cut-of-any-money-you-try-to-make-from-playing-diablo-iii
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well in vanilla, and d2 lod, i loved both of them. i wasnt worried about getting the top tier gear, or character builds, i was more concerned in how when that shiny dropped, and it was useless, i was like, well there has to be more! then another shiny would drop taht i could use, id be like, oh ya, my build is going towork! then a million more i couldnt use! but i didnt care, gear itself wasnt the defining factor that actually kept me playing, what kept me playing was how dark, and dreary the landscape, and the setting was. then hearing tyrials voice for the first time, and saving dekard cain, again. stygians giving birth to babies right in front of my eyes! its nothign im creating, these are legitimate feelings i still have for the previous 2 diablo games. D1 and D2.

you get the pay pal fee, plus the blizzard fee in the rmah. if you use the battle.net balance but thats stupid because then i cant get my money out, i am locked into using that ONLY on blizzard products. so its either a 15% plus pay pal fee, or my money is locked into blizzard products, adn i can never get it out. even if i were to have like 800 bucks in there.

the best option for those that use the RMAH IS pay pal because you can get your money. but this doesnt explain the fact that blizzard still get its 15% cut if they have to cancel a transactin becuase of 3rd party software. which DRM is SUPPOSED to protect from.


Regardless of how it looks for the seller, the buyers are in the same boat. With so many sellers who do not mind the many cuts, the price goes into the toilet and 3rd party sites still cant compete, which is the point. The prices to purchase items are still lower than 3rd party sites.
Edited by Brathearon#1214 on 11/17/2012 9:34 AM PST
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I have enjoyed the game since day 1. Even when my barb was getting one shotted past A1 with a full defensive spec because the gameplay is fundamentally enjoyable to me.

The vocal minority always manages to ruin games by constantly complaining. I am not saying that some of the changes they have made weren't good, but listening to whiners is a surefire way to end up with a nerfed game. Happens all the time in MMOs.

With that said, i have never agreed with the AH or RMAH. I dont think game companies should sanction pay to win. I realize there will always be a market for it, but by forcing people to go to a 3rd party will keep some away that would otherwise do it, and makes implementing changes that are good for the game easier since they don't have to worry about nerfing gear someone paid real money for. I don't understand pay to win people. Do they want all godly gear handed to them? Have the monsters just stand there and not do anything while they kill them? The AH might have saved the value of gold here, but it decreased the value of items because everything is available always, if i want an IK helm I can just go look and there are hundreds listed, rather than having to find a game with someone who has one to sell. The items that are selling on the AH now for 100k gold (or like 10ish minutes of killing) are in the top 1% of items that can drop, and for under 1m you are in the top .001%. Personally I am only looking for basically perfect items anymore, due to the availability of gear for purchase at any time.
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