Diablo® III

Electrify Magic Weapon & CM/WW

how do you sns users deal with reflect elites with no life steal?
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11/20/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Gummybear
how do you sns users deal with reflect elites with no life steal?


LoH, it's a lot better than Life Steal at most CM dps levels.
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I was struggling with RD immediently after I packed on an extra 20k dps.

Thought it was my armor/resist composition, but after taking some advice from my boss barb friend (ya i know haha)

He said the best way to deal with it is LOH.

I put on a extra 450 LOH to my current 950, and it was INSTANTLY noticable. I was on another level @ that point. And for a one stop shop, on one piece of gear, no juggling or anything especially at the gear point I was at. Was just mind blowing.

So don't underestimate LOH. As you can see my AR/armor is modest @ best as well. But no problems versus reflect.
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Can we get some comparisons on Magic Weapon vs Shocking Aspect?

I really don't want to drop teleport. Without the math, it seems SA will out perform MW on a more consistent basis as SA doesn't care how many targets there are like MW does.
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Can we get some comparisons on Magic Weapon vs Shocking Aspect?

I really don't want to drop teleport. Without the math, it seems SA will out perform MW on a more consistent basis as SA doesn't care how many targets there are like MW does.


Based on my math a few posts back, SA > MW. I'm getting SA+Storm Armor to be about 35% of total dps single target, compared to about 17-18% from MW+Elect. At 4 mobs, electrify is 20% max, and MW is 10%, the combination is only about 32% dps increase, which is still less than SA.

Though for extra mobs I think WW makes up less of your effective damage, and at 4 mobs it's contribution is about half of the overall dps as single target, so while SA+Storm Armor diminishes in effectiveness somewhat with more mobs, so does WW and thus so does electrify.
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how do you sns users deal with reflect elites with no life steal?


LoH, it's a lot better than Life Steal at most CM dps levels.


thats not true. Diamonds do alot of DPS and it eats your HP big time. LOH works good with WW yes, but with crazy shard procs your HP gets eaten away, faster with more proc too.

i have about 139kdps and if i use diamond shards, the reflect mobs hurt me pretty hard. I have to slow down my dps to survive. But i think i lack all resist thats prob why as well. my LOH is about 700. If i dont use diamon shards i pretty much can tank anything.
Edited by Gummybear#1685 on 11/20/2012 1:09 PM PST
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^yep it's because of your low mitigation I think, also a bit more LoH may help. Mitigation and LoH help tremendously, that's why a proper geared CM/WW doesn't complain much about RD. We all gear with /average+/ EHP and decent LoH. I doubt LS would be better than LoH at 150k DPS. Can't say about 200k DPS though.

RD+Electric is another story though lol.
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11/20/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Gummybear


LoH, it's a lot better than Life Steal at most CM dps levels.


thats not true. Diamonds do alot of DPS and it eats your HP big time. LOH works good with WW yes, but with crazy shard procs your HP gets eaten away, faster with more proc too.

i have about 139kdps and if i use diamond shards, the reflect mobs hurt me pretty hard. I have to slow down my dps to survive. But i think i lack all resist thats prob why as well. my LOH is about 700. If i dont use diamon shards i pretty much can tank anything.


Get an amulet with 700+loh and you will be able to use diamond shards on reflect no problems.

700loh is bare minimum .
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The reason LoH is so good is you gain about 8-10x your LoH value per second as you go from 2.5 to 3.0 breakpoints. At 200k dps, with full SNS+time warp you'll have a dps coeficient around 8, but 30% of that is from SA+Storm Armor, which is unaffected by LS, so let's call it 6x char sheet dps in life return. 1.5% life steal gives 0.3% of your damage as life in Inferno, which is 1.8%x your char sheet dps, or 3600 Life per second at 200k dps. That's the same as 360-450 LoH, depending on your actual stats.

So I'd call it about even at 200k dps, but LoH is much better at 100k and below, especially since it's much easier to find LoH on extra items (blackthorn pants, rings, amulet, storm crow helm) than life steal, which only comes on weapons.
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I was doing some experimenting with this same rune a while ago and it increased dps, but not by much... but i have increased my gear a lot since then. I will try it out tonight.
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Here's what I hope to be some easy to follow math on electrify. The gist of the math is Electrify rune should add about 20% dps tops, at 4+ mobs.

At 3.0 breakpoint, you get 40 tics per WW cast, or 5 eletctrify procs per WW per target. Each proc does 10% weapon damage for a total of 50% weapon damage extra per WW. The base damage of WW Is 252% so for 2 targets your WW does about 20% more damage.

My simulator results are telling me that for 55% crit, 3.01APS, and 20 APoC, WW makes up about 30-35% of your total dps, so let's say 35%. That means with Electrify you'll do about 0.35*0.2*100 = 7% more dps. I'm just going to neglect the CR, FN, and DS procs since they have very low proc rates compared to WW.

Just to be clear about my calculations, I'm lookint at it on a per mob basis. Obviously it scales with the number of mobs, but if you calcuate the total damage, and divide by 2 you should get an overall 7% dps increase.

If you have 3 mobs present, the bonus damage is about 100% weapon damage per WW, for an overall increase in dps of 14%. Likewise, 3+targets would mean 21% increase. Just to compare, this scaling is the same result as Shandlar has in his first post. 150% for 2 targets means 75% per target. 440% for 3 targets is about 150% per target because he rounded the procs to 18 instead of using 22.5. 900% for 4 targets is 225% extra damage per target, which is 3 times the 75% for 2 targets, so the scaling is actually linnear on a per target basis.

In short, what you're seeing from the high aoe dps is mostly just an overall increase in dps due to multiple targets. Even with 4+ mobs Electrify should only give about 20% dps increase (in addition to the 10% from MW). It's still better than Slow Time from a soloing perspective, for all fights except against single target, and about even with 2 targets.

Please let me know if there's any errors in the math. I've gone over them a couple times but hadn't really put much thought into the rune before today.


Couple pages back I note thats what I saw at best in video testing. 10.5x sheet multiplier with largest crowd. I run 8x normally with sns. Most of the time damage is lower than 10.5 though. Not sure worth giving up tp for since it only most effective on white trash.

I'm sure a lot of benefit we're seeing is just from magic weapons 10% too.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/20/2012 1:45 PM PST
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when you have high dps you need life steal.
thats why life steal works best with shards
and LOH works best with WW.

I say you still need both if your dps is high. above 150kdps levels
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11/20/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Gummybear


LoH, it's a lot better than Life Steal at most CM dps levels.


thats not true. Diamonds do alot of DPS and it eats your HP big time. LOH works good with WW yes, but with crazy shard procs your HP gets eaten away, faster with more proc too.

i have about 139kdps and if i use diamond shards, the reflect mobs hurt me pretty hard. I have to slow down my dps to survive. But i think i lack all resist thats prob why as well. my LOH is about 700. If i dont use diamon shards i pretty much can tank anything.


You straight up don't have enough LOH and AR. 700 LOH and ~600AR is not going to cut it at that level of DPS, thats why shards is ripping you apart when it goes off.

No reason to drop shards, you just have to gear accordingly otherwise you'll be stuck at that DPS level and will never progress.
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yeah, i need some trifector items, they just so expensive lol
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Yeah. Like I want shands ring saw one for 650m couple day ago. was only up for like 3 hours then gone so someones rich but not me. Wish they'd dupe those like gems.:P
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Though if you're having survivability issues, shards is the best dps skill to drop. You lose about 5-15% dps from it depending on how many mobs you're facing but gain a lot of extra effective EHP.
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Gummy... i think you're better off going armor > AR at this point... that should raise your mitigation more. You should be looking for both but $$$
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MMm.. You think armor would help absorb reflect damage effects?

either way i pretty much need trifector items only at this point of stage, so ive hit a wall unless i fork out my wallet haha
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I used Kieble's eHP calculator on your profile [http://www.unyieldingvalor.com/D3/calcTool.php?region=US&name=gummybear&tag=1685&hero_name=1599933&hero_load=true] and armor gives you more gain than AR - reading the metrics off the eHP "tab":

+10 Armor 349.95
+1 Resist All 275.8

Bear in mind that both give you better mitigation, but given the option of

300 armor / 40 AR
100 armor / 80 AR

You are better off by a factor of 2 with the 300 armor / 40 AR option. Not to mention, it should be stupendously cheaper given everyone overprices gear with (near) max AR...

Sorry to thread hi-jack, but i concur that MW-Electrify makes MP10 whites go splat. The nutty bit is still killing extra health elite yellows ... o_0
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I am going to try out just replacing shocking aspect tomorrow on MP6; wicked wind, safe passage, shards, unleashed, bone chill, electrify, cold blooded, evocation, critical mass


Idk Eric, I always find your mixing of skills interesting, but I rarely understand your thought process.

When I'm farming there's a constant balance between time spent moving, and time spent killing. Increasing movespeed will have diminishing returns on efficiency cause the ratio of time spent moving over time spent killing will shrink as you become faster as moving.

Same with dps, and you increase DPS time spent moving becomes a larger and larger % of your overal farm speed.

Raising MP in essense uses this formula by lowering your effective DPS, or increase your time spent killing vs your time spent moving. This reduces the emphasis on movement speed.

Therefore is absolutely possible to end up with not only greater loot, but greater xp/hour doing this spec in MP10 than raw SNS-wormhole in MP8. In MP8 your kill speed is fast, so you require fast movement speed to compete. In MP10 normally your kill time is so slow that movement speed becomes almost a non-issue for farming speed as a whole.

If you increase dps by a large enough margin, its absolutely better loot. In my experience today it was even higher xp (around 15% more/h) than MP8 SNS/Wormhole.

Shandlar,

I use safe passage/2 LOH/ls to match your extra armor/extra res/3 LOH/chant 7% reduction build in terms of mitigation on mp5+.
I have 44% more dmg verse elite on mp5+.
I am taking the same damage back on reflect on MP8 that you are experiencing on MP10 assuming I have a 8 multipler and you have a 10.
Shards refesh is linear but multiple RD target magnifies the dmg ALOT.

theory:
MP10 has ~44% more loot than MP8.
MP10 has 95% more hp than MP8.
MP10 has ~107% more loot than MP6.
MP10 has 384% more hp than MP6.
MP10 has ~515% more loot than MP1.
MP10 has 2292% more hp than MP1.
MP10 has ~515% more loot than MP1.
MP10 has 752% more hp than MP4.
MP10 has ~358% more loot than MP4.

It is easier to run more dps, less mitigation and do 2 runs of MP6 verse a MP10.

From my experience high mp only beats low mp solo with a group of 4 people of 200k+ unbuffed on MP8-10.
The best composition:
1. 1 sns/bone chill/safe passage cm
2. won khim lau/conviction monk
3. 1 gruesome/injustice/voodoo/radius wd
4. 1 shards/time warp/Deep Freeze/safe passage cm

Can we get some comparisons on Magic Weapon vs Shocking Aspect?

I really don't want to drop teleport. Without the math, it seems SA will out perform MW on a more consistent basis as SA doesn't care how many targets there are like MW does.

The point it to just target 3+ targets.

Just looking at the base proc dmg output:
SA dps = .35 * .59 = 0.206
4 target
E dps = .1 * 3 = 0.3
3 target
E dps = .1 * 2 = 0.2
2 target
E dps = .1 * 1 = 0.1
1 target
E dps = .1 * 0 = 0

SA storm armor base is best single target doing like .7 dps. E base buff is best for many target bc it's 10% on all targets. Assuming most packs are 4 guys and you burn them evenly it should perform at about around 1.75 SA's. However its single target performance is like half that of SA. So generally it can be near even on maps with low white density , ranged packs, rares. HOWEVER this is opens up replacing teleport with another kind of armor and using E instead of SA. Opens the door to cheaper CM dps IMHO. Example, a struggling sns wiz might be able to bump mp up by 1-2 and run pinpoint + E instead wormhole + SA.
Edited by RulerEric#1854 on 11/20/2012 2:59 PM PST
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