Diablo® III

Why You Are Getting Killed By Reflect Damage

I have the feeling that many affixes seem to be "slightly" bugged. No clue if it is true though.

But how can it happen that you start a game sometimes, with a difficulty you feel comforable and they dont hurt you, you almost dont even realize that the enemy is doing damage.

Then you start a new game, with the same diffculty, and they hurt you like a truck.

Sometimes even between the elites you have that. They have RD, Molten, etc. No problem at all. Then you get to the next elite pack and suddenly the RD on them almost kills you ...

is it maybe that some affixe combinations create very strange effects? I know that health link for example is not good with LL (at least I get a lot less life back from them). But thats probably not a bug.

But some said that for example molten depends on the attack of the monsters or their attack speed etc. so how much damage it does when you stand on it. So when the creatures have "fast" as affix, and molten and RD it all can create strange situations eventually.

The affixes really work sometimes very strange ...

11/24/2012 06:03 AMPosted by Lenyo
Reflect damage and Health Link reflects triple or quadruple the damage returned (depends if the champion pack consists of 3 or 4), so long as all the mobs are 'linking' their health. So that's a large part of the problem right there.


^^^ Noticed this since 1.0.5 dropped.. Never have any issue with refelct unless its health link as well.

yeah reflect damage really started to become a problem after 1.0.5.

The fun part is on the test forum people already made comments about that on blizzard.

But they rather fixed the 3m damage the fireball from the infernal ring to 25k dps instead of looking eventually in to the affixes of the elites.

And no one should say its impossible. Its not the first time enemies had "bugged" affixes.

There is a lot of math behind a game like D3. And a lot of potential for creating unexpected situations simply because there are so many possible combinations inside the system!
Edited by CrniVuk#2227 on 11/24/2012 6:11 AM PST
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This whole topic tells me that reflect damage is working as intended. It's meant to scale upwards with the more dps (with respect to ehp and regen/LoH/LL) your character has. The whole idea of Diablo is to balance your stats (just a little). If you don't and wonder why reflect is hurting you too much . . . . then you know the reason.

I know the pain on my main character. But he hates extra health and not reflect. But both are working as intended. Just need to work out ways to beat it.
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anyone ever tried exploding palm a reflect pack? funny stuff. for even more fun try it on mp10 khulle and watch siegebreaker reflect enough damage to kill a small army
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11/24/2012 06:41 AMPosted by Heph
anyone ever tried exploding palm a reflect pack? funny stuff.


haha, I might have a long long time ago and learned my lesson. I wouldn't doubt it. I used to lead yellows over to groups of blues and kill them there so they would take a big chunk out of the other group's health. That was when I was a bit lower on the DPS. It's been a long time since I've used exploding palm.

11/24/2012 06:41 AMPosted by Heph
for even more fun try it on mp10 khulle and watch siegebreaker reflect enough damage to kill a small army


I could imagine. Ubers have so much health!
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11/20/2012 01:45 PMPosted by xMoonDevilx
Only have +331 All Resist...but it does enough so I barely notice Reflect, always has..


You have 30k dps, there is nothing to reflect.

RD counters CD, get some and then tell us how you do :)
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This whole topic tells me that reflect damage is working as intended. It's meant to scale upwards with the more dps (with respect to ehp and regen/LoH/LL) your character has. The whole idea of Diablo is to balance your stats (just a little). If you don't and wonder why reflect is hurting you too much . . . . then you know the reason.

I know the pain on my main character. But he hates extra health and not reflect. But both are working as intended. Just need to work out ways to beat it.


I actually do try to balance the stats on my character as much as I can. As a matter of fact I just finished my first Solo Uber run on MP7 without dying. I can use more resist and health, but by default Inna's Temperance and Inna's Favor don't come with any Vitality. It's hard to find those pieces with the resist you need and Vitality. Even though Monks have One With Everything Inna's Set by default doesn't have All Resist or any type of resist;you just have to roll it. The max for everything but all resist is 60 I believe....I could be wrong though, but I don't see most of them with more than that. I try to get all the resist and other stats that help. I'll probably have to try to find slightly better pieces of Inna's that I have right now and I also try to get as much as I can on other pieces of equipment too.
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From what I understand yellow elites with minions reflect more damage than blue elites because the minions have less damage mitigation so it's really easy to kill yourself on them. I've even seen the difference in hitting the main yellow elite versus his minions, way more damage reflected back from minions.

For me if I run into a yellow reflect damage mob I have to pop serenity, with blue reflect mobs it isn't always necessary.
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11/27/2012 09:49 PMPosted by Antilogy
From what I understand yellow elites with minions reflect more damage than blue elites because the minions have less damage mitigation so it's really easy to kill yourself on them. I've even seen the difference in hitting the main yellow elite versus his minions, way more damage reflected back from minions.


The actual single value is a little more damage reflected back than what the leader reflects back, but what's messing people up is the second attack that's reflected back. The second attack that's reflected back ranged from 58%-72% of the damage of the first one reflected back. Also overall on the topic, the higher your DPS, the more damage you will get reflected back to you but Lifesteal should also scale with the damage you do.

Sweeping Wind has been helping me out with the minions. I'm thinking that it's not getting 2 attacks reflected back from every hit so I'm actually getting some health back from it and it's helping deal with the second attack reflected back from my primary attack better.
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This whole topic tells me that reflect damage is working as intended. It's meant to scale upwards with the more dps (with respect to ehp and regen/LoH/LL) your character has. The whole idea of Diablo is to balance your stats (just a little). If you don't and wonder why reflect is hurting you too much . . . . then you know the reason.

I know the pain on my main character. But he hates extra health and not reflect. But both are working as intended. Just need to work out ways to beat it.


No. You're clueless. Reflect Damage is meant to reflect a flat % of damage done, mitigated by armor, resists and damage mitigation skills. If hitting a Yellow Elite / Blue Champs is doing this properly, but the minions of the yelow elite are reflecting more than this %, that's unintentional.

Back on topic, good analysis on this, OP. Been having this discussion with a mate of mine about how something's wrong with RD on minions, and you've just set the stone for it. Mucho thanks, hopefully this gets fixed soon.
Edited by Bleed#1789 on 11/28/2012 5:54 AM PST
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11/20/2012 01:48 PMPosted by FooTWO
Leave reflect damage alone. You idiots control your mouse and keyboard. Just don't click attack so much. Lift your finger off the button here and there and allow yourself to heal. It will be just fine. it is no different then easing off the throttle when going around a curve. But you idiots like to mash the pedal to metal and fly over the cliff.....


You're an idiot who obviously cant even read. If minions are reflecting twice, yet you're only getting healed from LS once, you're losing HP. I cant even see your profile but i dont really feel the need to look at someone who grinds MP0 then comes here and gives his @-hatted opinions as facts.

If you dont acknowledge this as a valid issue, you either:

A) Have really low dps to the point where RD has NO DAMAGE to reflect.
B) You're ignorant.

I'm going with both.
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Reflects only hurts if it has molten and electric on top of it...
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Currently running 235k paper DPS on my DH and while reflect will explode my face, it only ever really does it when I'm not really paying attention. I just think the main problem with reflect is it's lack of visual cue that most of the other affix's have. If there is a bug, by all means fix it, but if you could look at the monster, and instantly know it's reflect, i just don't think it wouldn't be nearly as deadly as it is.

What I'm really not going to like is on a previous post on reflect, blizzard said they might turn it into a casted debuff that is placed on the player. If on occasion, mortars fly at me from off screen, if they make this change am i going to start blowing up for no apparent reason whenever there is a reflect mob just out of sight?
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This whole topic tells me that reflect damage is working as intended. It's meant to scale upwards with the more dps (with respect to ehp and regen/LoH/LL) your character has. The whole idea of Diablo is to balance your stats (just a little). If you don't and wonder why reflect is hurting you too much . . . . then you know the reason.

I know the pain on my main character. But he hates extra health and not reflect. But both are working as intended. Just need to work out ways to beat it.

Are you sure? How long are you playing D3 already? Because it isnt the first time that there might be bugs with certain affixes or damage types. There are still a lot of bugs with some skills for example. And lets not even get in to that really stupid stuff like rubber banding which is probably one of the most loved bugs by hardcore players.

But even if Reflect Damage has no bugs (I dont know if it does) it still doesnt mean it would be a perfect part of the gameplay.

You know already D2 had reflect damage and it was by no means as powerfull like in D3. The elite enemies had enrage timers which is more a mechanic from some MMO eventually and never was a part of Diablo. So just because its "there" doesnt mean its "good" gameplay.
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11/20/2012 10:04 AMPosted by TruongSifu
First and foremost. There is a bug.


Ahh, the classic excuse, :-) It's always a bug!

Let's see if we can get to the REAL problem...

11/20/2012 10:04 AMPosted by TruongSifu
RD Minons actually reflect 2 attacks back instead of 1.


11/20/2012 10:04 AMPosted by TruongSifu
My regular gear is enough to handle all other types of Reflect Damage Monsters including the Uber Version of The Siegebreaker.


Okay, let's review...your regular gear can take on Uber Siegebreaker, which, if I've read every possible letter of the strategy guide is, in fact...ONE monster, right? Siegebreaker isn't an army of monsters, right? I mean, I've killed regular Siegebreaker at least seven or eight times myself, so if I remember correctly, Siegebreaker is ONE monster.

Minions, on the other hand, are...MANY monsters? Like upwards of nine or ten sometimes that surround a yellow/rare monster? Siegebreaker, by the way, not a minion. Not protecting anything, he's a boss all on his own.

I notice in your mathematical rant (because, ya know, math proves all) that you call out specifically MINIONS. You didn't mention blue/champion monsters, as those mobs only come in packs of three or four, and unless your AOE is high enough, another tactic is to take out one at a time. No, you specifically mentioned MINIONS, which come in large groups and have a leader, and the fact that those minions appear to reflect back double the damage that leaders do.

Real issue: even if minions reflected back only one attack...it should still hurt badly.

So, instead of being a child about this...why not just divide and conquer? As a side note, I do agree, a gear-switch button would be pretty cool. However, you're right, you shouldn't have to switch gear. Just use a different tactic. The devs put out a video pre-launch where they offered tips on how to handle the infamous Inferno difficulty, and one thing they mentioned was that it's best to have at least one strong, focused, single-monster attack, and at least one wide attack for AOE. If a player JUST does focused attacks, they'll constantly get overrun and can't hold back packs. If they stick to AOE (and stack DPS, like eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeveryone does), you'll run into RD packs which SHOULD rip you to shreds because, mathematically and logically, if a single powerful AOE attack hits a TON of RD bad guys, you SHOULD feel that sting multiplied.

Oh, and before you look over my profile, by the way, and say I don't know how RD feels, trust me, I know how it feels. My top three characters have felt it pretty hard, and at least once, it's caused my Witch Doctor to die. Even with DPS far below 50k and on LOW MP levels, like 0 and 1, it still gets felt.

However, if an RD pack of minions is causing me trouble, I back off the AOE and attack one or two minions at a time. I mean, Diablo 1 was NOTORIOUSLY stupid for allowing you to stand in a bloody doorway and attack one bad guy at a time as they walked through, really cheapened the danger factor. Obviously, in D3, you can't do that as perfectly as in D1, but you can at least utilize some strategy, break up the pack, and pick them off one at a time.

I don't mind people calling out things they think are bugs, and I've really stayed pretty clear of getting on the "Really Blizz? WTF?" train, complaining about class nerfs and making the game easy...but this Reflect Damage nonsense WILL end up getting nerfed in a subsequent patch to the point where it's TOO easy to deal with. Check it...RD packs are MEANT to hurt. They're MEANT to be handled differently than other packs, that's what creates diversity in enemies, and as a result, forces you to use strategy and not just stack DPS, spam AOE and lay waste to everything without blinking.

TLDR: Call this a mathematical bug all you like, but as it stands, when I see Reflect Damage packs, I fear it, I keep frosty and sharp, I press on and I win the battle however I can by fighting smart. When they nerf this, or "fix the bug" as you call it, it'll be like RD never even existed. Pray that DOESN'T happen.
Edited by CardinalMDM#1269 on 11/28/2012 7:04 AM PST
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I notice in your mathematical rant (because, ya know, math proves all) that you call out specifically MINIONS. You didn't mention blue/champion monsters, as those mobs only come in packs of three or four, and unless your AOE is high enough, another tactic is to take out one at a time. No, you specifically mentioned MINIONS, which come in large groups and have a leader, and the fact that those minions appear to reflect back double the damage that leaders do.


I already mentioned in the post that blues don't do a thing when you're geared for it.(See below) There is an exception however that Blues with Healthlink will reflect back much more damage than other blue packs. I mentioned that in one of the posts in this thread after people mentioned it. I can also go and see how much damage Minions reflect back compared to Blue Packs, but I already made my point with the Leaders. The Blues don't reflect 2 attacks back, except a Healthlink pack in which case they reflect 3x to 4x the damage when hitting 1. They are the only blue packs that I actually don't gain health from. Also, when I attacked the minions, I did single 1 minion out to see the damage it reflected back to me.

11/20/2012 10:04 AMPosted by TruongSifu
Now high end DPS guys around 100k DPS or more(even around 100k, some might not be able to see a health drop), around 600 All Resist,5000 Armor, and around 5.9% Lifesteal or less (I have no idea how much LoH has to be, but at High End DPS LoH seems to be inferior anyways) will still get damage reflected back from Minions and lose health because 2 attacks are being reflected back, but they won't notice reflected damage back and drop in health from a Blue or Yellow Elite because they are only reflecting 1 attack back.


11/20/2012 10:04 AMPosted by TruongSifu
There was never a big problem with Reflect Damage that affected players that had the gear to handle it before. There is now though with that bug though. Reflect Damage does not need to be nerfed, but put back to how it was intended to work. I didn't notice a difference until after Hotfix 10/23/2012 and not after patch 1.05 or before Hotfix 10/23/2012.


RD wasn't always like it is now, I mentioned that before. If it was the same the whole time, I wouldn't even be questioning it. I've never had problems before that hotfix. ATM my profile states I have 69148 Elite Kills and your profile states you have 7326 Elite Kills. I've been playing since release and with that many kills you notice when there's big change to something. There are other affixes that can own me and totally destroy me, but I'm not complaining because they have been working the same as they always have.

You can also quote as many little parts of the original post as much as you can, but everything is in context, and without the rest of it strays from what was intended.
Edited by TruongSifu#1826 on 11/28/2012 11:20 AM PST
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Bump
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I have around 215k dps buffed while attacking and i rarely have any problems with reflect damage, unless i run into a horde pack and hit like 4 mobs at the same time with 1.5mil crit...but i dont die from that just hits me for around like 30-40k hp
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I notice in your mathematical rant (because, ya know, math proves all) that you call out specifically MINIONS. You didn't mention blue/champion monsters, as those mobs only come in packs of three or four, and unless your AOE is high enough, another tactic is to take out one at a time. No, you specifically mentioned MINIONS, which come in large groups and have a leader, and the fact that those minions appear to reflect back double the damage that leaders do.

Real issue: even if minions reflected back only one attack...it should still hurt badly.

So, instead of being a child about this...why not just divide and conquer? As a side note, I do agree, a gear-switch button would be pretty cool. However, you're right, you shouldn't have to switch gear. Just use a different tactic. The devs put out a video pre-launch where they offered tips on how to handle the infamous Inferno difficulty, and one thing they mentioned was that it's best to have at least one strong, focused, single-monster attack, and at least one wide attack for AOE. If a player JUST does focused attacks, they'll constantly get overrun and can't hold back packs. If they stick to AOE (and stack DPS, like eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeveryone does), you'll run into RD packs which SHOULD rip you to shreds because, mathematically and logically, if a single powerful AOE attack hits a TON of RD bad guys, you SHOULD feel that sting multiplied.


When you have LS every bit of damage you do, you get a percentage back. If I hit 5 guys, I get health back from 5 guys too. With Blues that have RD and don't have health link I can go in the middle of them, hit all of them, and get enough life out of all of them to not have a drop in life from the damage reflected back;I actually get life and can do that even while standing in Desecration. Health Link is a different story though;the damage reflected back by the Health Link and Reflect Damage combo is pretty drastic.

It's fairly easy to gear up enough to handle 1 attack reflected back and my gear is enough to handle 1 attack reflected back, it's the second attack that you have to gear even more for. 5.9% Life Steal is more than enough to handle everything in the game but RD Minions. Just for RD Minons you need LS and LoH, which can be a hard combination to get on any weapon that does some real damage. LS scales with the damage you do. If you do more damage, you get more health back, plain and simple. So even though the Minion gets hit slightly harder than the Leader, my LS still scales with the damage and gives me more Life in return.
Edited by TruongSifu#1826 on 11/28/2012 2:27 PM PST
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