Diablo® III

Looking for opinions from knowledgeable DHs

everything is in regards to single target dps, thinking ubers only here.

1) what do you think is the highest damage per second hatred generator skill?
-i am basically trying to decide between bola/imminent doom or perhaps there is a way to have all 3 grenades hit the same target for potentially more dmg then imminent doom.
however, feel free to suggest any hatred generating skill you think does the most dps.

2) which hatred using skill do you think gives the best dmg per hatred (not damage per second as in the first question).
-i would guess it comes down to echoing blast vs. cluster bombs vs. not even sure what else, what do you think?
Reply Quote
11/26/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Borat
1) what do you think is the highest damage per second hatred generator skill?


pretty sure that's hands down devouring arrow, in terms of single target
but bola maybe more consistent in general cuz you kinda need a lil AoE in ubers anyway...

2) which hatred using skill do you think gives the best dmg per hatred (not damage per second as in the first question).
-i would guess it comes down to echoing blast vs. cluster bombs vs. not even sure what else, what do you think?


not sure how accurate my math is... but here we go

In 1.0.5 they drastically reformatted the first skill rune of spike trap. Prior to this the rune was "bandolier" which read - increase the maximum number of traps that can be out simultaneously to 6. Now the rune is "echoing blast" which reads - your spike traps can explode up to 3 times, dealing 275% damage.

So Spike trap now hits for 275% dmg 3x's for 30 hatred, so that's 825% dmg for 30 hatred or 27% dmg per hatred spent. Compare that to cluster arrow you have Loaded For Bear which (assuming every rogue bomb lands) is 304% dmg + (100% x 4) = 704% dmg for 50 hatred or 14% dmg per hatred spent. (even with grenadier its still only 18% dmg per hatred spent) Now compare this to cluster arrow with Cluster Bomb which (assuming you line up the cluster arrow perfectly, such that the three bombs hit the same target) is 230% x 3 = 690% dmg for 50 hatred or 14% dmg per hatred spent (and with grenadier its only 17% dmg per hatred spent)

So i think cluster arrow in best case scenario is half as efficient as spike trap in terms to dmg per hatred spent, because at this rate you would need 6 cluster bombs to hit a single target, and im pretty sure that doesn't happen

correct me where im wrong :)
Edited by Philos#1386 on 11/26/2012 1:45 PM PST
Reply Quote
I used CA LFB for a long time with -5 hatred reduction and thought it was good, but ST with EB is just better even with the hatred reduction on CA. I think the only way to make CA really viable is to get ~-10 hatred reduction on gear and take the grenadier passive for another -10 hatred reduction. Then, and only then, is it better than spike traps. However, you do need to take into account that sometimes with a crazy moving target (like ZK) your spike traps will occasionally be wasted. Where with CA you'll always hit at least with your initial volley. I still think ST is better.

For generators, I really don't think anything beats Bola:ID. The only downside is like I mentioned with CA, moving targets. Your bola won't always hit, especially if you are needing to move around. I think for that reason a very good argument can be made that HA is best. For certain ubers like Ghom, SB, etc you'll never miss, but for mobs like ZK, Magda, your bola might miss.
Reply Quote
Did I just declare myself knowledgeable by posting in this thread? Sorry, that might be presumptuous of me.
Reply Quote
nah sounds good to me, plus im of the opinion that getting spike trap to hit is a lot easier than getting those clusters to hit.

being tanky lets me drop the traps on myself and gather a crowd, whereas with the clusters its actually hard to hit targets close to you.

i did wanna ask about devour arrow, it hits for 115 then starts to have proc chances to hit more.

(had to redo my math as it was wrong, since i was applying chance to values which i had already reduced by their chance to occur)

so you can add it up for 115 + (.35)(185) + (.35)(.35)(255) (.35)(.35)(.35)(325)= 115 + 65 + 31 +13 = 224.

bola does 216%, i really dont rely on more than 2 procs from devouring arrow, and since you need 3 to just about get even with bola wouldnt bola be better?
Edited by Borat#1110 on 11/26/2012 2:01 PM PST
Reply Quote
i like to think that if you provide opinions and back them up with rational thought, then you are knowledgeable, at least in this arena.
Reply Quote
nah sounds good to me, plus im of the opinion that getting spike trap to hit is a lot easier than getting those clusters to hit.

being tanky lets me drop the traps on myself and gather a crowd, whereas with the clusters its actually hard to hit targets close to you.

i did wanna ask about devour arrow, it hits for 115 then starts to have proc chances to hit more.

so you can add it up for 115 + (.35)(185) + (.35)(.35)(255) = 115 + 65 + 31 = 211.

so 12% of the time you do 211% dmg with devouring arrow, where as with bola you are always doing 216%.


Same here, I'm tanky enough that for most MP levels I can simply tank and throw the traps at my feet, so spike traps almost always hit. I throw a couple in front of mobs as they approach and then when those go off and the mobs are on me I throw them at my feet to finish the job.

There's no question bola does more damage than HA. But that's assuming you never miss with bola. :)
Reply Quote
dont you hate spike traps for goblins though.... make me so mad!!!
Reply Quote
damn, dont type your math as you work it out in your head...

i am now thinking devouring arrow is more single target then bola, even if every bola hits.

regardless of number of procs to hit again, the overall dmg it does on average converges to a single steady number, which whatever it is, must be higher than 224%, and based on how the model is behaving, i would guess ends up being around 230% dmg on average, as compared to bolas 216%.
Reply Quote
I don't know the math but technically best hatred gen is Evasive fire. Covering Fire shoots 3 bolts, all 3 can land with possible 390% per shot. Plus it regens 4 hatred instead of 3. If you wanna argue this, you could go for Evasive: Hardened (even though tooltip says 130% it actually does 160% plus gives you 25% armor) Besides that, it's INSTANT damage.
Reply Quote
best generator hands down bola shot - i was in love with it ever since i switched

if u can keep the single target staying in one spot echoing blast, if not pretty sure cluster arrow
Reply Quote
I generally like ball lightning as my hatred spender and ha as generator for ubers, that's because ha is by far the best single target skill in terms of dmg and it never misses which is a huge bonus. Also since it hits a number of times for low dmg numbers rather then one big boom there's less risk of killing yourself at sb if you accidentally fire ungloomed.
I like bl because it has relatively high hatred for dmg rate (16%per hatred at least with a good dml/soj), also unlike St or ca it will always use 100%of its dmg output and has a bigger range, immediate dmg, long steady streams of attacks to help you clear out trash mobs and generate high hp with gloom if the mobs stick to you. Also it syncs amazingly with missile dampening that zoltun does which can multiply your dps 10folds.
Reply Quote
11/26/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Radelon
Covering Fire shoots 3 bolts, all 3 can land with possible 390% per shot.


not single target, only one of those 3 will hit a single target, the other 2 just hit air.
Reply Quote
what about grenades? any thoughts or experiments out there with getting all 3 to hit big targets like ghom/siegebreaker? If thats possible then theoretically gas grenades would be the highest dps hatred generator.
Reply Quote
gas grenades are good, but which high dps DH would feel comfortable standing infront of ubers like that
Reply Quote
I think the only way to make CA really viable is to get ~-10 hatred reduction on gear and take the grenadier passive for another -10 hatred reduction. Then, and only then, is it better than spike traps.


i hadn't thought about the -hatred gear, but if that's fair game then you would have to add the potential +trap dmg on gear as well

i would agree that CA could become comparable, but better? i dunno its just too expensive and the dmg compared to the echo is low

personally i use the thunderball on bola shot just to hold monsters in the trap - this is especially effective in ubers
Reply Quote
11/26/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Philos
I think the only way to make CA really viable is to get ~-10 hatred reduction on gear and take the grenadier passive for another -10 hatred reduction. Then, and only then, is it better than spike traps.


i hadn't thought about the -hatred gear, but if that's fair game then you would have to add the potential +trap dmg on gear as well

i would agree that CA could become comparable, but better? i dunno its just too expensive and the dmg compared to the echo is low

personally i use the thunderball on bola shot just to hold monsters in the trap - this is especially effective in ubers


True, you can get damage to spike trap which would keep it still better than cluster arrow but there isn't a passive that improves spike traps like the -10 for cluster arrow. Still, I agree, spike traps are better.

I hadn't thought about the synergy of traps and thunderball. Not sure how good it would be for a manticore user with lower attack speed, but might give it a try.
Reply Quote
From my experience best single target dps output you can get against ubers is cluster bombs with the combination of bat companion and marked for death hatred rune. I only use this setup while playing with c/m wizzes; survivability is lower with this build. Other than this I run bola/imminent doom and spike trap/ echoing.
Reply Quote
I hadn't thought about the synergy of traps and thunderball. Not sure how good it would be for a manticore user with lower attack speed, but might give it a try.


yea, took me like 2 days after patch to try this and i was blown away by the efficiency... still looking for comparable options... nothing really coming close... trap is OP so you might as well just keep them in the trap :)

once you break the 2 attacks per second mark it starts to work out for like at least 75% stun up-time, not unreasonable for manticore users

but with CM wiz the stun is useless :P
Reply Quote
---------------------
Edit: forgot to answer the OP.
1) Best generator for single target:
Hungering Arrow Devouring is highest (many threads already on this),
but with a bit more utility, Bola - imminent doom, and Spray of Teeth is probably better all around.

2) Best spender for single target:
Spike trap - Echoing rune when you are stationary, or Scatter rune when you are kiting (place them in a line next to your hero aligned to your target so that they run past all 3 chasing you)
both at 275 x 3 = 825, per 30 hatred. Nothing else is close.

----------------------
I've done some spread sheet math in figuring out the ratio of actual damage : displayed dps, trying to look for the highest ratio for a single normal sized target.

I started with:
Bola Shot EmDoom or Hungering Arrow Devour as generator (pick the one you have a bonus% damage on),
Spike traps Echoing blast (no other skill comes close in terms of damage/hatred),
Marked for Death Mortal enemy

Taking account into optimal attack speed for generating and spending hatred at about 1.7 per second, with 4 hatred regen and 6 regen per hit from mortal enemy,
accounting time it takes to place traps and the slight penalty for placing traps early before the earlier trap can finish blowing up,

This would give you about 3.5 : 1, actual DPS : displayed character DPS.
Sentry would add about 1 around at this attack speed, brining it to 4.5:1.

Then I tried:
With Loaded for bear instead of traps at 40 hatred per shot, and various attack speeds, this ratio is about 2.5: 1, with sentry about 3.5:1.

So my conclusion for highest single regular size target skill set is, HA/Bola + Echo trap + M4D Mortal En + Sentry. The rest of the slots are for utility like gloom, vault, perfectionist, numbing traps, archery, night stalker, etc.

-------------

Obviously for big fat targets, you would use grenades, and probably loaded for bear, and the rest of the above and get higher real dps.

-------------

Considering DH can get high displayed DPS relatively easily compared to other classes, I guess our low ratio of 4.5 :1 is not that bad. (CM wiz has like 7:1 easily, they can max out to like 11:1 I think)
Edited by Jackfrozt#1713 on 11/26/2012 8:51 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]