Diablo® III

AH Flipping Has Got to Stop Indeed

The only people in here screaming vehemently that AH flipping is just and good, are the ones who do it.

First, the argument that it is somehow the seller's fault for pricing an item too low. There is no too low - the seller has every right to sell an item for any amount he or she sees fit.

Second, and all else that needs to be said is this:

Auction House Terms of Use:

11 Restrictions and conditions of use:
(B) You will not:
(iii) " use the auction house as an investment vehicle"

Because gold has a real money value associated to it, by flipping items on the GAH, and obviously the RMAH, you are using the AH as an "investment vehicle" and are therefore in violation of the auction house terms of usage.

It therefore follows that Blizzard should implement controls to prevent this from happening, such as timers, or not allowing an item to be re-listed for more than 115% of it's AH purchase price. Since they would simply be enforcing their own terms of usage

You can't compare this AH economy to the real world. It is a video game

How can this be any simpler?

/thread
Edited by Beingsupreme#1272 on 11/30/2012 9:53 AM PST
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Like others have said all this would do is remove gold as the de facto currency. That is the flippers are still going to buy the item listed by doofus for 1/10th its value and just get emeralds or mempo's or whatever the heck it turns out to be. Except then people will have no easy way to know what anything is worth. No thanks.
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Show me a law saying flipping items is wrong? Or is it your wise minds thinking cause your poor?
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11/30/2012 10:19 AMPosted by DarkThunder
Show me a law saying flipping items is wrong? Or is it your wise minds thinking cause your poor?


Well there is no law goofy, it is outlined in the AH terms of usage that is several inches above your post.
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This OP is making me laugh so hard. Flipping the AH is just how it works, if people didnt buy them at the higher prices you wouldnt see it.

The game needs more gold sinks, not flipping removed.
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Show me a law saying flipping items is wrong? Or is it your wise minds thinking cause your poor?


Well there is no law goofy, it is outlined in the AH terms of usage that is several inches above your post.


You couldn't be more wrong, let me quote my self and several other people including a Lawyer's point of view;

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7253855612?page=8#143
Buying and Selling = Flipping. . . no difference.

The clause on the ToS "You will not (iii) use the Auction Houses as an investment vehicle;"

Investment Vehicle Definition;
A security or derivative. An investment vehicle may be rigidly structured, as in an asset-backed security, or it may be quite basic, like a stock or bond. One uses an investment vehicle in order to make a profit on the capital one has invested in it. An investment vehicle may involve the purchase of a debt obligation, which entitles one to repayment with interest, or it may involve buying an ownership stake in a business, with the hope that the business will become profitable. Many different investment vehicles exist, and each is subject to greater or lesser regulation in the jurisdiction in which it takes place. Each one has its own risks and rewards; choosing the correct investment vehicles for a portfolio requires a combination of astuteness, knowledge of the market, timing, and good luck.

If you buy Diablo 3 and use the RMAH for the sole purpose of selling items for getting a profit that is when that account will get banned, if they ever prove it, which they probably can't, .

The GAH is different and that clause will not apply to any items you Buy and Resell there. . . why you ask? Even if someone bought an item with the purpose of Flipping/Buying&Selling to get more Gold, Blizzard can never prove that was your sole intention.

Which is why there has never been any Incident or Report of someone Buying&Selling/Flipping items on the GAH who got banned, if there is one I don't know of, please provide us a Link.

That clause is a safeguard for Blizzard, so that people who uses the RMAH would not be able to sue them if ever the items they bought loses it's value, through nerfs or any other kind.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7253855612?page=14#262
I will try to make this easy. Part of Diablo is to build wealth. You can do this through playing the game and magic finding or gold finding. Or, you can do this through providing services such as powerleveling, key hunting, or boss killing. Or, you can do this through the market by buying low and selling high. Heck, you could even do it by wagering on pvp matches (when pvp is implemented of course). Every single one of the methods above are completely legitimate ways to build wealth in this game.

An investment vehicle, however, is purchasing an account with the very specific intention of making money and not playing the game. The phrasing may be vague, but the intention and spirit of the rule is crystal clear.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7253855612?page=14#263
I read the TOU, yes I did it.

What is the most close rule to flipping is the following:

Agreement 11. RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS OF USE.
B. You will not:
(iii) use the Auction Houses as an investment vehicle;

What does this mean? Let's get to it.

Definition of "Investment Vehicle" in micro-finance: Types of investments such as stocks, bonds, real estate, and hard assets.

Definition of "Investment": The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.

Following these, it is clear that such profit isn't made until you cash-out via RMAH with PayPal. But before being called an investment vehicle that led to profit, the presumption of innocence must be pushed aside. By pushed aside, I mean "obvious", that you can really say there is no doubt. This guy used the AH/RMAH as an investment vehicle.

Example: When the duping spread in the Americas server and drove the Radiant Star Gems down to 4 millions gold while everyone screaming about duping, if someone happened to buy, let's say... 100 000 Radiant Star Emerald throughout multiple acounts. Then, after the duping got fixed, those dupers banned and prices back to normal, the flipper sells the whole lot through the RMAH and cash-out everything to PayPal.

IMO that would be called a violation of the TOU and could end with lawsuit. That means that a single player sniping items to sell it at their actual value to get more gold for more upgrades is entirely legit. Why? Because it is not an Investment-Vehicle and no profit has been made.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5967806929?page=11#205
I can't believe this topic is still going. The FAQ quoted way earlier makes it perfectly clear that you can buy an item off the AH and immediately relist it. The FAQ makes no mention of any prohibition against doing so for the purpose of making a profit, despite the fact that profit is the most immediate and obvious reason for buying an item and immediately relisting it. If there were such a prohibition, Blizzard would have mentioned it there. Instead, they did the opposite and explicitly said "Go ahead, buy items and immediately relist them." They said this without any disclaimer about your intent to profit or not, which disclaimer people in this thread have just made up out of whole cloth.

If there's a "rule" against doing something, Blizzard states it explicitly. They certainly don't maintain a FAQ that says you can do exactly the opposite.

I'm sorry to admit that I'm a lawyer with some experience in securities law. As the law student earlier explained 100% correctly, the line about not using the AH as an "investment vehicle" is not there to prevent any particular behavior on the part of players. It is there to guard against lawsuits put forth on the theory that Blizzard profited from selling unregistered securities. The US has strict laws about the sale of securities, and the securities so regulated are not limited to the more common examples such as stocks and bonds. You may be surprised to learn that just about anything you can buy and later resell at a profit can under certain circumstances be classified as a security; an important case you'd read early on shows that even the oranges from groves of trees down in Florida can be the basis of a security, if they're sold as an investment vehicle. Virtual items sold on an electronic exchange directly for $US, or indirectly for "gold" which can in turn be sold for $US, could easily be considered a security if the items were marketed as investment vehicles; which is to say, if Blizzard were marketing the AH portion of Diablo 3 as a way to make money through speculation. The ToS line about investment vehicles is there to make it clear that Blizzard is not offering you the AH for that purpose.

So why does it matter if their virtual items are classified as securities? Thanks for asking. Securities need lengthy registration filings, have regular reporting requirements and disclosure rules, and offering them to sale to the public a big old headache. Activision, for example, is a publicly registered entity which presumably complies with all these regulations, and if I buy 100,000 shares of ATVI today and when I sell them in a month those shares have lost half their value, well that's just tough for me. Generally speaking, I can't sue to recover my lost money from Activision. People lose money on stocks and other investments all the time. (And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of lawsuits stemming from people losing money. But investors need to allege some actual fraud or wrongdoing by the company in addition to their own losses. Just losing money on a registered security isn't enough.)

However, if a company is offering and selling unregistered securities to unqualified investors (like say the entire D3 player base), then things are different. If an unqualified investor loses money by investing in an unregistered security, then they are entitled to recover every cent. Blizzard, reasonably enough, does not consider the RMAH an exchange, nor the items you can buy there to be securities and Blizzard (reasonably enough) has not registered them as such. This is the why the ToS wants to be clear that said items and said RMAH are not to be used as "investment vehicles."

Someone might dump $5,000 into the RMAH with the intent of flipping and making a profit. If a court found that Blizzard encouraged or even suggested this use of their RMAH as an investment vehicle, then believe it or not said someone might be able to recover any losses they suffered on the RMAH. It's not so likely, but not impossible. Therefor, you'll notice that even though half of us instantly had that idea when we first heard about the RMAH, and even though many people started and continued to make money off of it from day one, and even though Blizzard of course profits handsomely whenever anyone takes money out, you won't find any official encouragement or suggestion that the RMAH should be used in that manner.

However, you won't find any prohibition against it either. Merely allowing people do buy and sell items is perfectly fine, and if some people do that with no objective other than profit, that's perfectly fine too. Blizzard is safe as long as they don't market the items as investment vehicles. As their own FAQ states explicitly, you can buy an item and immediately relist it. Obviously you're doing that for a profit, and Blizzard thinks that's dandy. But officially speaking, they just want to make it clear that they never told you this is a way to invest your money and get a return, and they never encouraged you to consider these items to be investments like stocks or bonds. If you want to use them that way, by all means go ahead. The FAQ couldn't be any clearer.

Seriously, that's the real answer. This is not some common sense thing where anybody cares what you think "investment vehicle" means.


If these are not clear enough for you? Then you seriously have some comprehension issues.

_________________________________________________________________________
JaceAltair EU Server
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/JaceAltair-2678/

DH Stun Build Trolling Elites and Ubers on MP10
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7178978741#1
Edited by JaceAltair#2678 on 11/30/2012 10:35 AM PST
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The only people in here screaming vehemently that AH flipping is just and good, are the ones who do it.

First, the argument that it is somehow the seller's fault for pricing an item too low. There is no too low - the seller has every right to sell an item for any amount he or she sees fit.

Second, and all else that needs to be said is this:

Auction House Terms of Use:

11 Restrictions and conditions of use:
(B) You will not:
(iii) " use the auction house as an investment vehicle"

Because gold has a real money value associated to it, by flipping items on the GAH, and obviously the RMAH, you are using the AH as an "investment vehicle" and are therefore in violation of the auction house terms of usage.

It therefore follows that Blizzard should implement controls to prevent this from happening, such as timers, or not allowing an item to be re-listed for more than 115% of it's AH purchase price. Since they would simply be enforcing their own terms of usage

You can't compare this AH economy to the real world. It is a video game

How can this be any simpler?

/thread


Stop lying... I dont flip and it isnt bad... You are just a cry baby. Market value is market value. People finding deals isnt increasing market value. You just missed the deal. Pull up your big boy pants and deal with it. Blizzard has touted the free market AH as a boon and it will thus remain that way or they are hypocrites. BLIZZARD HAS TOUTED THE FREE MARKET AH. They showed it off like a trophy prom date.

Someone putting a price low for whatever reason and someone buying it for whatever reason is not an investment vehicle in and of itself. Its responding to whatever naturally came into both the buyer and seller players view.

Why would you state something as such a fact when it is so easily counterable? I dont flip. 99%+ of my game wealth comes from items I found and sold. I think flipping is natural and good. Soooooooo.. Here is your proof that you are DEAD wrong just beginning with your beginning only.
Edited by Dirtpoor#1202 on 11/30/2012 10:46 AM PST
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Whiners got to be stop! Items should just fall from the sky, free of charge. All flippers should just go flip eggs instead. Gold should be obtain with an email to blizzard asking for free gold. Auction house needs to be stop, just don't play, simple, everything stops.
Edited by PaydayTime#1731 on 11/30/2012 10:47 AM PST
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Can not believe some people think auction house flipping is a problem...... I guess its the same people that wish the items where handed to them. Whats the hell is up with socialism being accepted in this day and age when, it is proven to fail... and fail hard.
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90 Human Priest
6200
lol!
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I don't see anything wrong with AH flipping. It's part of the game. If you see a steal why wouldn't you take advantage of that. What a stupid post...
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It is neither for me nor for you to figure it out. It's for Blizzard.
My post is about options/alternatives. Constructive feedback/recommendations on the subject are welcome.
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These posts about the AH always make me wonder how many emails Ebay must get a day from butthurt people who think it's unfair they lost an auction...
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We have a socialist here. Look AH flipping WILL ALWAYS BE. Who cares if some meatball under sells an item, and some one else buys it and resells it at a profit. Happy bidding.

Just and fyi, I don't flip, but I do see the AH as a forum designed for buying and selling items, hopefully so two parties go away happy. Capping the next sale at the previous sales amount is plain retarded. Straight up!

gg



- items purchased on either of the AHs should not be allowed to sell for more than what they were acquired for. Obviously that would not apply to newly found items (not dropped on the ground by other players) when trying to sell them for the very first time. That's right - only reselling is penalized. Buy items to use them or don't buy at all.
Edited by Kush#1975 on 11/30/2012 11:00 AM PST
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I am against the no flipping policy of Blizzard- point is someone paid more for something than you were willing to. His motivation for doing so is none of your business.
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I always felt the same way...

I would perfer there wasn't and RMAH... (but i realize third party sites would profit in a huge way and the problem really wouldn't be solved).... However since the RMAH AND GAH do exist, People have a right to use it how they wish. It's a free world after all.

Does it suck.. yea. But life isn't fair, and it wouldn't be fun if it was.

On another note. Last night I was browsing the GAH AND RMAH, and stumbled accross what I thought to be a super sweet deal in the RMAH. When I woke up I tested the item out, and it was indeed fun. It was almost time for work though, and I thought.. Hmmmm maybe If i sold it in the GAH i can double or tripple my value. So I put said item up for 1.5 billion ( a bit over what I think is a fair price) as it's at the top of it's class. IF it sells I'll be extremely happy and if not i'm still happy.

I never attempted something like this before.. But it's fun trying.

Point of advice though... I've also noticed that the better deals seem to be tuesdays through thursday... I imagine cause people with jobs and going to school need sleep and can't play as much. So snag your good deal on those days and the same item can probably sell for more on Friday's saturdays and sundays.
Edited by Poobah#1136 on 11/30/2012 11:12 AM PST
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And here I thought the AH was a way for players to exchange items, using gold as the medium of exchange.
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