Diablo® III

Does the lack of build variety...

The economy was screwed over and over again on the gold AH side whenever a new major patch is up while inflation is skyrocketing, so yeah it's very unfair for new comers/ peeps that took a break etc. But once you stacked some 1-2m then you can easily gear yourself to 40kdps, 400ar, 3000armor, 35k life real cheap. Then you're good to farm MP0, and then move on from there.

As far as build goes, there are so many builds out there that are way better than the cookie cutter, especially when survivability is an issue again. It's not the best DPS build, not the fastest farming build, definitely not good at surviving high MP, I have no idea why people are still using it at all.
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12/05/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Babydoll
As far as build goes, there are so many builds out there that are way better than the cookie cutter

No there aren't
12/05/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Babydoll
It's not the best DPS build

eDPS - yes it is.
12/05/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Babydoll
not the fastest farming build

Right, that's TR
12/05/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Babydoll
definitely not good at surviving high MP

Cookie cutter is the ONLY build I've successfully soloed MP10 ZK\SB in and I've tried at least a dozen variations
I have no idea *what i'm talking about*

FTFY
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@ Simplemath

As far as build goes, there are so many builds out there that are way better than the cookie cutter

No there aren't
It's not the best DPS build

eDPS - yes it is.
not the fastest farming build

Right, that's TR
definitely not good at surviving high MP

Cookie cutter is the ONLY build I've successfully soloed MP10 ZK\SB in and I've tried at least a dozen variations
I have no idea *what i'm talking about*

FTFY


ok DPS build thing first:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUSdbk!gZU!abccca

How can this build do lower DPS against cookie cutter on any level? You may argue what no Serenity? Yes, no Serenity, cuz with that level of gear you using you just won't die in low MP. So no rubber thanks. Plus DS is used. DS is, well, is Serenity without cooldown. High MP variant here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUSdgk!gXU!abccYY

For Mp10 thing, well, mp10 is the 'end game' for now right? Then I'd assume one would need end game gear for such task. This is MP10, please have 5.8% LS. On top of that you'll need 1k LPS, 50+ LPSS, and 500+LoH(around 1k if you DW). And end game SoJ. If you have that I'm sure your other dozen variations would lead you to victory too. Your DPS is only as high as your sustain can take you to. Why would you solo Ubers anyway it's a waste of keys, more people more fun and more efficient.

As far as build goes, there are already so many better alternatives on this forum alone. I'm sorry if you, or anyone, insist to look the other way.
Edited by Babydoll#1167 on 12/5/2012 7:45 AM PST
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How can this build do lower DPS against cookie cutter on any level? You may argue what no Serenity? Yes, no Serenity, cuz with at that level of gear you just won't die in low MP. So no rubber thanks. Plus DS is used. DS is, well, is Serenity without cooldown. High MP variant here:


Yes, subbing out serenity for SSS or even better Foresight or blazing fists is a viable alternative for more DPS, but the main core of FoT\OA\Cyclone does not change... There are tweaks to cookiecutter, but it's still the same build. You can push it dpsy or you can push it survivability, but IMO its the same build.

12/05/2012 07:38 AMPosted by Babydoll
Why would you solo Ubers anyway it's a waste of keys, more people more fun and more efficient.


As the ultimate challenge - ZK\SB is by far the hardest fight- and its also a great test that proved for me that cookiecutter with Beacon is the Best with a capital b build we have. There are NOT better alternatives. With better gear, I'm sure I could get by with a less effective build, but that's the point, those builds are less effective.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/5/2012 7:49 AM PST
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12/05/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Babydoll
The economy was screwed over and over again on the gold AH side whenever a new major patch is up while inflation is skyrocketing, so yeah it's very unfair for new comers/ peeps that took a break etc. But once you stacked some 1-2m then you can easily gear yourself to 40kdps, 400ar, 3000armor, 35k life real cheap. Then you're good to farm MP0, and then move on from there.


2m gold, and you're probably looking at closer to 60K DPS, 5000 armor, 700 AR, and some life steal nowadays. Gear with the stats you're listing are essentially free. It's far from unfair to anyone who takes a break. Actually, I think that if you joined now from patch 1.0.3 or 1.0.4, you'd be thrilled.

Good gear just keeps getting cheaper. Prices for good weapons have just been plummeting in the past few weeks. I know that much of my gear is not worth anywhere near what I paid for it at this point, and I bought my stuff pretty cheap.
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As far as build goes, there are so many builds out there that are way better


I totally agree with this.

12/05/2012 06:42 AMPosted by simplemath
Cookie cutter is the ONLY build I've successfully soloed MP10 ZK\SB in and I've tried at least a dozen variations


I don't think you experimented enough with other builds. For starters, the wave of light build I use is far better than I could have ever hoped. I can farm with it in mp2 as easily as I could in mp0. It's not mp10 but that isn't my level of play yet.

Quantam: I think most of the trouble is that there is a lack of experimentation and understanding with the Monk class. From very early on, people adopted the current cookie cutter build. There are a lot of reasons for this. For me, it was because I liked the idea of a Backlash/Crit build. Eventually it seemed like everyone was adopting OWE and Overawe. Just like you, I was frustrated with the build that everyone was using. I caved for a while and used the popular builds.

I think it is easier to think of the Monk as a tank that should be able to resist a lot of punishment while keeping his primary attack going so he can sustain with life steal. You can just point and click. It's harder to think of how to generate and spend your spirit wisely. It requires you to think of two or three modes of play.

For example, my modes of play for my wave of light build kind of go like this:
At full spirit, hit mobs with a Blinding Flash.
While blinded, hit them with bells until spirit is gone or they are dead.
If the elite mobs aren't dead, use serenity and gather spirit for a few seconds.
With that spirit, hit the elite mobs again with bells until spirit is gone or they are dead.
Switch between serenity and blinding flash.

Cookie cutter is kind of like this:
At full spirit, lead in with sweeping wind and mantra
Kill mobs while spamming overawe (I wonder if people actually spam this)

There is more to it than that. But you have to consider that the cookie cutter builds don't have to take a break like I do. So it's all about what you like. I haven't done the math, but I like the sheer DPS power of wave of light. And I can put down like ten bells before my spirit runs out. Yes, I have to generate spirit again. But I've been doing better than I ever have with the old cookie cutter builds. I've been thinking about doing a Lashing Tail Kick build too.

I think the basic lesson for me was that Monks have to use their spirit more effectively. When I switched from a cyclone build to a wave of light build - my ability to survive went way up. I used wave of light, had lower dps but killed things faster, had lower resists but no longer had to sit in plagued/molten for so long. And it only takes me two hits with quickening (sometimes only one) to recover enough spirit for another bell.

Take a look at all the builds LordRaahl is supplying for us. Some of them are seriously good if geared up for it.
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hmmm I've been trying to think of a reasonable good build without SW whatsoever. I personally think SW is one of the skills "killing" the build diversity on monks since it being a major damage contributor (sometimes more so than the actual attack of the char itself). Thanks darkmist though for bringing up the bell build since i haven't tried that one out yet for a non-SW build. Currently with the few tests i've done, only a crippling wave tsunami buffed by combination strike and deadly reach foresight is the only thing that comes close (well not even that close actually) to the AOE damage of SW cyclone (actually increases my 10 min run to around 12). I can only imagine (as I'm still lazy to try) the disparity even more when used on high mp levels Y_Y
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@ Simplemath

12/05/2012 07:48 AMPosted by simplemath
With better gear, I'm sure I could get by with a less effective build, but that's the point, those builds are less effective.


IMO those builds are less effective only according to the gear you have. not just armor/sustain wise but more of balance/resource wise. For e.g. more LPSS makes all spirit spender more 'effective', and 5+SPS gives bell spam builds perma-stunlock etc.

@Demiwraith
That's good news! I still think new comers suffer big time though as they are starting with -150%ish gold find lol.

@Darkmist

Thanks and that's the spirit!!! Monk's about spirit after all :D BTW I've been using WoL/TR build since 1.04.
Edited by Babydoll#1167 on 12/5/2012 8:32 AM PST
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I think we need another secondary skill.
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ok DPS build thing first:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUSdbk!gZU!abccca

How can this build do lower DPS against cookie cutter on any level? You may argue what no Serenity? Yes, no Serenity, cuz with that level of gear you using you just won't die in low MP. So no rubber thanks. Plus DS is used. DS is, well, is Serenity without cooldown.

What? How in the world is DS a Serenity without cooldown. This is ... I just ... this may be one of the worst rationalizations for a 'different' build I have ever read.


As far as build goes, there are so many builds out there that are way better


I totally agree with this.

12/05/2012 06:42 AMPosted by simplemath
Cookie cutter is the ONLY build I've successfully soloed MP10 ZK\SB in and I've tried at least a dozen variations


I don't think you experimented enough with other builds. For starters, the wave of light build I use is far better than I could have ever hoped. I can farm with it in mp2 as easily as I could in mp0. It's not mp10 but that isn't my level of play yet.

So let me see if I have this correct ... first you tell someone who has clearly experimented with a number of builds while soloing ubers on MP 10 that they don't know what they're talking about because you have a build that works on MP 2 ... and then you admit that you have no idea if it works on MP 10 because you can't actually play there.

K, remind me not to take your advice.


Take a look at all the builds LordRaahl is supplying for us. Some of them are seriously good if geared up for it.

Thank you for the earth shattering revelation that any build will work if you are geared well enough.
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 12/5/2012 8:33 AM PST
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@ Piffle

Hmm how do I put it, let's see why do we want Serenity in the first place. Do we want it for a few seconds of invulnerability? Maybe, but is that really why we use it? 4 secs of facetank time followed by 16 sec cooldown? I doubt so. Our sustain gives us the ability to facetank, not a skill with long cooldown, cuz that would be inefficient--facetank is a long term commitment. We want it as a 'oh *$@%' button, a button for us to get out of harm's way. Well, just so happens DS does the exact same job. Molten, Jailer, Frozen, ZK bubble, gas, etc, you can avoid with DS. Sure peaceful repose is good, short invulnerability is good, but you are 'reacting' to a situation that's going to own you. For DS, you proactively turns the tide to your favour, because you don't have a CD to worry. You own the situation. <-------but of course this takes SKILLLZZZZZ but for lower MP I'm sure anyone can handle :P
Edited by Babydoll#1167 on 12/5/2012 8:53 AM PST
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So let me see if I have this correct ... first you tell someone who has clearly experimented with a number of builds while soloing ubers on MP 10 that they don't know what they're talking about because you have a build that works on MP 2 ... and then you admit that you have no idea if it works on MP 10 because you can't actually play there.

K, remind me not to take your advice.

Take a look at all the builds LordRaahl is supplying for us. Some of them are seriously good if geared up for it.

Thank you for the earth shattering revelation that any build will work if you are geared well enough.


You don't have to take my advice but I think you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say anything about simplemath's credibility or the effectiveness of his builds. My issue pertains to the subject of the thread - which is that Quantam is frustrated with the lack of builds. As always, a new build is going to take a while to gear up to 'soloing ubers'. I agree that I have less credibility because I haven't done that sort of thing. But I think there are more builds for a monk out there that can be just as, if not more, effective.

As for the gearing up comment. It's not earth shattering. I hear your sarcasm, but I'm just trying to say that if you do want to change to another build, be prepared to do the same grind and find items specific to fist of thunder or wave of light.

All I can say is that my experience with simplemath's current build wasn't half as effective as my current build. I admit that I didn't like the build when I was playing it and didn't have the gear necessary to take me to mp10. I'm currently trying to gear up to prove that my build works, but that sort of thing takes a while for me.
Edited by darkmist29#1115 on 12/5/2012 8:59 AM PST
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Honestly, if they added a teleport to every single spirit spender, monks might be in a better bit of shape.

But as it stands...... FoT is just boss.
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@ Piffle

Hmm how do I put it, let's see why do we want Serenity in the first place. Do we want it for a few seconds of invulnerability? Maybe, but is that really why we use it? 4 secs of facetank time followed by 16 sec cooldown? I doubt so. Our sustain gives us the ability to facetank, not a skill with long cooldown, cuz that would be inefficient--facetank is a long term commitment. We want it as a 'oh *$@%' button, a button for us to get out of harm's way. Well, just so happens DS does the exact same job. Molten, Jailer, Frozen, ZK bubble, gas, etc, you can avoid with DS. Sure peaceful repose is good, short invulnerability is good, but you are 'reacting' to a situation that's going to own you. For DS, you proactively turns the tide to your favour, because you don't have a CD to worry. You own the situation. <-------but of course this takes SKILLLZZZZZ but for lower MP I'm sure anyone can handle :P


I will chime in here.

a couple points.
1. if you use beacon of ytar, you get 4 secs of invuln, 12 sec cooldown, as well as the 3 second blinding light:fotl 30% damage buff and crowd control every 12 seconds. I will take 30% damage boost 1/4 of the time. thank you very much.
Your build doesnt have that? i use blind quite a lot in MP10, but since you are not on that play level you wouldnt know that.

2. DS can avoid cc effects, true, but if you dont time it perfectly it doesnt work. Also, as far as saving you in oh !@#$ situations like when you are frozen surrounded by arcane sentries and in 3 desecrator pits - dashing strike doesnt do it. not to mention you need a target outside the area to free yourself, which isnt always possible in each situation. DS targeted on the ground has garbage range.

3. if i want to dash out of something i will target some outside enemy with thunderclap. I do this a lot to avoid CC effects and it saves a skill slot for serenity that in your case is wasted with dashing strike.

Most of the enemy skills give you enough time to plan an escape. Please dont give MP10 advice when you havent been able to succeed in MP10 yourself.
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12/05/2012 08:05 AMPosted by darkmist29
Quantam: I think most of the trouble is that there is a lack of experimentation and understanding with the Monk class. From very early on, people adopted the current cookie cutter build. There are a lot of reasons for this. For me, it was because I liked the idea of a Backlash/Crit build. Eventually it seemed like everyone was adopting OWE and Overawe. Just like you, I was frustrated with the build that everyone was using. I caved for a while and used the popular builds.


What a bunch of fking hipsters.

Cookiecutter is popular because its THE BEST BUILD.

Go on thinking that WoL or Dashing strike or whatever skill calc you pull out of your !@# works in MP10.. Trust me it doesnt.
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1. if you use beacon of ytar, you get 4 secs of invuln, 12 sec cooldown, as well as the 3 second blinding light:fotl 30% damage buff and crowd control every 12 seconds. I will take 30% damage boost 1/4 of the time. thank you very much.
Your build doesnt have that? i use blind quite a lot in MP10, but since you are not on that play level you wouldnt know that.


beacon is the single best passive we have. Better than OWE.
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Honestly, if they added a teleport to every single spirit spender, monks might be in a better bit of shape.

But as it stands...... FoT is just boss.


It also procs the most, and generates the most spirit, and pretty much does the most DPS....
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I think the game may have a lot of builds per character that just arent popular.
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@ Piffle

Hmm how do I put it, let's see why do we want Serenity in the first place. Do we want it for a few seconds of invulnerability? Maybe, but is that really why we use it? 4 secs of facetank time followed by 16 sec cooldown? I doubt so. Our sustain gives us the ability to facetank, not a skill with long cooldown, cuz that would be inefficient--facetank is a long term commitment. We want it as a 'oh *$@%' button, a button for us to get out of harm's way. Well, just so happens DS does the exact same job. Molten, Jailer, Frozen, ZK bubble, gas, etc, you can avoid with DS. Sure peaceful repose is good, short invulnerability is good, but you are 'reacting' to a situation that's going to own you. For DS, you proactively turns the tide to your favour, because you don't have a CD to worry. You own the situation. <-------but of course this takes SKILLLZZZZZ but for lower MP I'm sure anyone can handle :P

This is a load of crap for the exact same reasons why people use Ascension instead of Peaceful Repose.

And if our sustain gave us the ability to facetank mobs, then you wouldn't need DS to jump out of molten, gas, desecrator, etc. (how does one DS out of RD btw?)

But I guess maybe that's just because I don't have skillz. Can we do a run together on MP 8 or higher and you can show me how you use DS instead of Serenity successfully? I appreciate it.
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12/05/2012 09:04 AMPosted by simplemath
Cookiecutter is popular because its THE BEST BUILD.


Disagree. It is popular because it is a simple build with an easy to understand concept.

12/05/2012 09:04 AMPosted by Tarzan
Please dont give MP10 advice when you havent been able to succeed in MP10 yourself.


I don't think anyone is 'giving MP10' advice - even simplemath (who has survived mp10 ubers). We're talking about build diversity. You don't have to farm mp10 to know that monks have healthy diversity that has clearly not been explored. Again, Monks have taken the basic concepts of the cookie cutter builds and refined that knowledge, so that's the build we have all the information for. For example: I don't know the best way mathematically to generate spirit. I don't know if 2h weapons are really better for it, especially without guardian's path.
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