Diablo® III

Does the lack of build variety...

12/05/2012 09:14 AMPosted by Mountains
I think the game may have a lot of builds per character that just arent popular.


This

I guess as time goes along the people with other builds will have to make some videos. I'll have to figure out how to do that.

Someday! mp10! Wave of light build!

@Babydoll: dat Flying Dragon 0_0

12/05/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Kythe
Thanks darkmist though for bringing up the bell build since i haven't tried that one out yet for a non-SW build.


Thanks! I can't prove that I'm better off without SW or anything, but I can do mp2 farming without it so far.
Edited by darkmist29#1115 on 12/5/2012 9:34 AM PST
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beacon is the single best passive we have. Better than OWE.


One of my favorites too, once you start having both serenity:ascension and BL:FiTL it really shines :x
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What a bunch of fking hipsters.

Cookiecutter is popular because its THE BEST BUILD.

Go on thinking that WoL or Dashing strike or whatever skill calc you pull out of your !@# works in MP10.. Trust me it doesnt.

I think there's probably room for individual monks to swap some skills because of their gear or their MP level, but I think "best build" is probably close to, if not entirely, the truth. And I'm speaking as someone who has been slowly bending his builds toward that same Cyclone build. Why? Because every time I crunch some numbers, some skill on my toolbar is typically losing out to a TC/Cyclone skill I don't have.

But it's not absolute. I think spirit-spending builds have some very good options, provided you have the gear and skill selections to help generate crazy amounts of spirit. I also think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. For example, I'm playing on MP4 with the following:

Thunderclap
Tempest Rush
Ascension
Cyclone
Blazing Wrath
Hard Target
OWE
STI
Transcendence

That's in the cookie-cutter ballpark, and it's much closer than some of my older builds. Right now, on MP4, I simply don't have the armor to run with Overawe: every time I try it, I get messed up. Transcendence gives me better sustain than Beacon with my gear—in fact, I switched from Beacon after comparing the numbers. Tempest Rush fits my play style during combat and prevents me from getting trapped by brickhouses. I'm at a point where I could legitimately swap Blazing Wrath for Faith in the Light, though, but it's not a slam dunk because of the hit to my sustain. It's possible, but unlikely, that switching from Transcendence to Beacon would be worth it.

The point is, there's no one answer that fits everybody. If you buy your gear from the AH, it's probably your best option because you can target your gear to suit. But a TR build will be better if you're trying to level as fast as possible. There are a lot of factors to consider.
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12/05/2012 06:00 AMPosted by Piffle
@Piffle: Some of us are still gearing up from nothing! But we're looking' pretty good, all things considered :)

Vrk, you don't count because you spend most of your time "playing" with numbers in a spreadsheet :P

No hitting below the belt! Especially because I found these pants myself and don't want any of your filthy pawprints on them ;)
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12/05/2012 09:21 AMPosted by darkmist29
I don't think anyone is 'giving MP10' advice - even simplemath (who has survived mp10 ubers). We're talking about build diversity. You don't have to farm mp10 to know that monks have healthy diversity that has clearly not been explored. Again, Monks have taken the basic concepts of the cookie cutter builds and refined that knowledge, so that's the build we have all the information for. For example: I don't know the best way mathematically to generate spirit. I don't know if 2h weapons are really better for it, especially without guardian's path.


He was stating that serenity can be replaced by dashing strike and that dashing strike is better because it has no cooldown which just isnt the case.

i suppose i was a bit quick to jump to the conclusion that his build was aimed at high mp levels, but generally there isnt much of a need to get out of those cc situations at low levels of play... you can just sit there and facetank everything if you have any sort of sustain. in which case why not just drop serenity all together and leave out dashing strike?
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12/05/2012 09:17 AMPosted by Piffle
But I guess maybe that's just because I don't have skillz. Can we do a run together on MP 8 or higher and you can show me how you use DS instead of Serenity successfully? I appreciate it.


No no no, you don't understand his superior theory! Theorycrafting > Actually Doing Stuff
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12/05/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Tarzan
He was stating that serenity can be replaced by dashing strike and that dashing strike is better because it has no cooldown which just isnt the case.


Yeah, this certainly isn't the way I've ever thought of Dashing Strike. But it is at least an interesting take on it. I would never use Dashing Strike instead of Serenity because I use Serenity to collect spirit.

Dropping both Serenity and Dashing Strike at mp0? Hmm.. I would want lots of DPS and Life Steal to ensure my survival, but maybe it's a better question for Babydoll.
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12/05/2012 10:03 AMPosted by simplemath
No no no, you don't understand his superior theory! Theorycrafting > Actually Doing Stuff


I know I'm not pwning ubers but I'd like to see some of you guys in action. Any chance someone wants to join a game?
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12/05/2012 09:42 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
I think there's probably room for individual monks to swap some skills because of their gear or their MP level, but I think "best build" is probably close to, if not entirely, the truth. And I'm speaking as someone who has been slowly bending his builds toward that same Cyclone build. Why? Because every time I crunch some numbers, some skill on my toolbar is typically losing out to a TC/Cyclone skill I don't have.


Honestly, Full cookiecutter (TC\FITL\S:A\Overawe\Blazing\Cyclone) + owe\sti\beacon is the best build for overall balance between dps and ehp. The best. Full stop.

If you want to argue that replacing beacon and serenity (or boh) with CS and Foresight is better because of the increased dmg output, especially with lifesteal, thats an argument worth having. But you will die more often at the highest difficulties unless you are geared into the top one tenth of one percent. If you are at a lower MP, ditch serenity AND boh and go with SSS AND foresight... whatever.. If you're at MP2 use whatever damn combination you can dream up - see a certain stickied thread for suggestions.

At any rate, the core skills for cookiecutter - FoT\Overawe\Cyclone - are the backbone for all of these variants. FoT is the single best primary skill in the game, overawe is the best edps skill in the game and cyclone, even with a 2h, procs absolutely a ton of dmg.

I don't discourage experimentation, it's fun and can lead to some novel approaches. I like having discussions about possible new approaches, and comparing actual real world results.

What absolutely pisses me off is when some player who cant stay alive in MP5 let alone 10 starts telling people who have struggled and advanced and experimented with EMPIRICAL DATA, and then **succeeded** that they just haven't experimented enough and UGH why do people still use this MAINSTREAM build??

There is no secret magic build that is is just waiting to be unleashed upon US MERE MORTALS BEHOLD THE FIVEFOLD PATH OF THE DARKSIDE!!!1!

You deciding that Pillar of the ancients and Dashing strike or Mystic Ally or wtfever are way cool man and I'm doing great in MP2! is cool for you.

It doesn't mean a damn thing to the players at the top of the foodchain actually minmaxing builds and looking for the best possible skill combinations. We've already found them.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/5/2012 10:29 AM PST
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darkmist29
I know I'm not pwning ubers but I'd like to see some of you guys in action. Any chance someone wants to join a game?


FR sent.. I'll show you whatever you want.
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Speaking of interesting arguments about cookie-cutter builds - what is the optimal build for TR?

I've hit 115m xp/hr with my variant... anyone ever gone higher?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#UeXcQS!Zdb!ZbYZZY
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I agree with you OP, however you can go different routes you just won't be as good. I currently run a 2hd diabo monk and I have no problem walking through inferno by myself or in a public game. I don't play mp games because I prefer public games you still get drops and with good mf like my sorc has you do get good drops it's all chance anyway. I don't use tempest rush on my monk and I don't use any of the suggested skills and I really enjoy playing my monk she looks cool and she is a viable option in inferno which is all I really care about.
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^

and here i was thinking how you get the spirit for both TR and WOL. Of course!!! switch to back to inner storm and circular breathing. grrrr. I'll try this now. Currently using SSS instead of WOL but the lack of CD of WOL might make it better. Thanks simplemath. Currently rushing my monk to 100 so i can focus on re-gearing for full tank mode ^_^
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12/05/2012 10:21 AMPosted by simplemath
It doesn't mean a damn thing to the players at the top of the foodchain actually minmaxing builds and looking for the best possible skill combinations. We've already found them.


Those of us at mp2 aren't saying we are comfortable staying there. Athough there has been some rumors that mp0 is better anyway. Obviously you have done a lot of work with your build. And I think all of us are min/maxing. I'm not sure how you geared up your monk. You have plenty of kills to validate how good your gear is. I acknowledge that. Your items are expensive and extremely good.

I think the difference is gear. I've spent my time in mp2 for the most part and have been min/maxing just like those 'on the top of the food chain'. The difference is time... and sometimes money.

I still say that if Monk Diversity isn't healthy now, then it will be once people start trying to break the mold and start min/maxing other builds.

Thanks for the FR!
Edited by darkmist29#1115 on 12/5/2012 10:44 AM PST
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12/05/2012 10:42 AMPosted by Kythe
and here i was thinking how you get the spirit for both TR and WOL. Of course!!! switch to back to inner storm and circular breathing. grrrr. I'll try this now. Currently using SSS instead of WOL but the lack of CD of WOL might make it better. Thanks simplemath. Currently rushing my monk to 100 so i can focus on re-gearing for full tank mode ^_^


get the cheapest 4 piece inna you can so inner storm is free. Don't forget to bring your Templar! SoJ\LS Skorn\Xephirian if you can afford them. Same for Inna hat with spirit gen.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Speaking of interesting arguments about cookie-cutter builds - what is the optimal build for TR?

I've hit 115m xp/hr with my variant... anyone ever gone higher?


<sadface>

I was having so much fun reading this thread and cheering you and Piffle on until this post.

I call strait up BS though.

That build is cute but there is no way it is 115m xp/hr good.

You either A. calc xp/hr from weird start-stop points, B. had the most insane mob density game of all time or C. have secret-tech gear that somehow circumvents all the restrictions on Monk gear.

I have spent the better part of two strait months maximizing xp/hr and my single best run of all time was 103m xp/hr and that was using some BS SW-lock trickery.

tl;dr - video plx

-Druin, the extremely skeptical monk

Edit: I also find it extremely annoying that you spend multiple pages arguing that there is no build diversity and people who post random builds and call them good are stupid then you post a random build that literally no-one in their right mind would use and call it good. ><

Either A. you are 100% correct and that build does work which then instantly invalidates your previous 100 posts of argument.

Or B. you are wrong and that build doesn't work and you are exactly the kind of person you have spent 100 posts of argument railing against and are thus a hypocrite!

WTF man!
Edited by Druin#1518 on 12/5/2012 11:00 AM PST
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12/05/2012 10:43 AMPosted by darkmist29
I still say that if Monk Diversity isn't healthy now, then it will be once people start trying to break the mold and start min/maxing other builds.


Monk Diversity most definitely is not healthy... there are literally 2 builds. What will be nice is when more synergy is engineered to our class - I honestly don't think there is something out there superior to what has been found so far.

LPSS build has a ton of potential. Im working on some stuff, but early results suggest that it too falls short of high damage lifesteal for sustain + drain except in extreme gearing positions.

Someone prove me wrong im begging you. I'd love a new build to play with that wasn't obviously within 10 minutes totally inferior in some major way.
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Why is everyone focusing on MP10; I understand that it gives you the best drop chance but it does not mean you get higher rolls. The only difference is magic find percent. If you can kill stuff a million times faster on mp5 your better off farming there. The more elites you kill and the faster you do this the more legendaries you will get. The only real benefit mp10 gives you is the 100% key drop. I prefer searching for legendary items and really good yellow items than key running all day. I have also seen key's drop in public games so what really is all the fuss about. If you have played d3 you know that the magic find bonus really doesn't help if your killing stuff slower! Also you don't even gain that much more exp so farm mp10 all you want with your cookie cutter build and brag about how you have the top 2% of the same items everyone in the game has most of us really don't care that you spent real money in the game we farmed and diversified our characters and were just happy playing. If I had the top 2% items in the game I would probably stop playing... as that is what keeps me playing!
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I have spent the better part of two strait months maximizing xp/hr and my single best run of all time was 103m xp/hr and that was using some BS SW-lock trickery.

tl;dr - video plx


I'll have to record it... This was a three hour average on MP1. HF\30Leoric (since sold, will reacquire)\ruby. Alkaizer minus TD1 and core. keep blazing fists alive when expedient to do so. Run your !@# off obviously; round every corner, drop every bell optimally.. no dead ends and no deaths. Was the single most stressful thing i've ever done in diablo and i don't know if i can duplicate it. I'll try. My average run was mid 90s.
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@simplemath

unfortunately im not the type that buys gear specifically solely for exp runs. But in any case, il try it with my current gear. However, I might have to agree with Druin on the exp/ hr thing though. I've seen his thread on TR and his methodical and comprehensive "study" on the build for best exp/ hr. Personally though since I don't want to go back to 2H and I can't sustain a spirit regen to perma-TR, so Im currently happy with the same build but just TR-ing to a mob then hitting with FOT. In any case, my 1st run with WOL over SSS nearly hits my average run time. Probably with a bit practice I can match it. I do miss having MoC and cyclones though ^_^
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