Diablo® III

Does the lack of build variety...

12/05/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Franchize
Why is everyone focusing on MP10

For me its a benchmark. That's all. How efficient is a build at an extreme position

Edit: I also find it extremely annoying that you spend multiple pages arguing that there is no build diversity and people who post random builds and call them good are stupid then you post a random build that literally no-one in their right mind would use and call it good. ><


I tried a lot of TR builds. That one worked better than anything else I tried. I understand you don't believe me, fine, you're entitled to that. That's why I asked if anyone had found anything better. That's also why I said that this was the really interesting argument. There's no real consensus TR build AFAICT.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/5/2012 11:14 AM PST
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12/05/2012 11:07 AMPosted by simplemath
Why is everyone focusing on MP10

For me its a benchmark. That's all. How efficient is a build at an extreme position

Edit: I also find it extremely annoying that you spend multiple pages arguing that there is no build diversity and people who post random builds and call them good are stupid then you post a random build that literally no-one in their right mind would use and call it good. ><


I tried a lot of TR builds. That one worked better than anything else I tried. I understand you don't believe me, fine, you're entitled to that. That's why I asked if anyone had found anything better. That's also why I said that this was the really interesting argument. There's no real concensus TR build AFAICT.


I never once said that someone's random build is not good or called anyone stupid. I'm really confused with why you would say that. I never once said that my build was elite or good; I said I'm able to survive in inferno mp0 and in public games and that is what works for me. I can respect that you prefer mp10 as it tests your build to the extreme but you take everything to the extreme. I'm not arguing your logic it is sound I'm pointing out that I enjoy diversity not being the best in the game. If that means I don't hit paragon level 100 as fast as you that is fine with me. If that means that I can't do mp10 runs that is also fine with me. I checked your items and if you say that this is what works the best I will believe you as you have the gear to try different builds. It sucks that only one build works in mp10 but you must agree that any build would work in the lower mp's with your gear. This is diversity just not "mp10" diversity.
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@druin By the way - in your beautiful (srs, awesome stuff) primary spreadsheet (i'd never seen your TR thread somehow) WotHF:BF generates more spirit than any other skill except spirited salvo and gives you 15 uncapped ms.

Having a 10% wothf soj doesnt hurt either.
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12/05/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Franchize
I never once said that someone's random build is not good or called anyone stupid

Sorry, was reponding to multiple quotes from different people. That response was for Druin.
The top one explaining that i just use MP10 as a benchmark was directed at you.

Im not grinding p100 nearly as fast as I can either, its just too stressful for me. I mess around in pubs, do uber runs, whatever.. I cant just grind for hours and hours. Wears me out.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/5/2012 11:26 AM PST
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Simplemath;

I also believe we actually both have similar views; your so passionate about the cookie cutter build but I bet you wish that you could have 4 or 5 builds that you could cycle through to run on mp10. Blizzard really screwed this up just like diablo 2 where you needed to have very specific gear and skills to be effective end game. This game was suppose to allow us to not have to worry about a skill tree instead now were stuck with the fact that end game content requires a very shallow pool of gear and skills and this is exactly the issue of why people get bored. I think you argue what is most effective because your right and it pisses you off that no other skills are viable end game! That is why I choose not to play end game because blizzard obviously doesn't test this stuff. I mean really how hard would it be for them to give themself end game items and run through mp10 with different skills. Blizzard really should just buy out league of legends and make their game developers fix diablo that would help a lot those guys are very good at what they do.
Edited by IFranchizeI#1513 on 12/5/2012 11:38 AM PST
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12/05/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Tarzan
I don't think anyone is 'giving MP10' advice - even simplemath (who has survived mp10 ubers). We're talking about build diversity. You don't have to farm mp10 to know that monks have healthy diversity that has clearly not been explored. Again, Monks have taken the basic concepts of the cookie cutter builds and refined that knowledge, so that's the build we have all the information for. For example: I don't know the best way mathematically to generate spirit. I don't know if 2h weapons are really better for it, especially without guardian's path.


He was stating that serenity can be replaced by dashing strike and that dashing strike is better because it has no cooldown which just isnt the case.

i suppose i was a bit quick to jump to the conclusion that his build was aimed at high mp levels, but generally there isnt much of a need to get out of those cc situations at low levels of play... you can just sit there and facetank everything if you have any sort of sustain. in which case why not just drop serenity all together and leave out dashing strike?

Exactly. He specifically states that you don't need Serenity at lower levels of MP (which I agree with). He also specifically states that "DS does the exact same job" as Serenity and then went on to say using DS "takes SKILLLZZZZZ but for lower MP I'm sure anyone can handle." Ergo, DS can be used as a replacement for Serenity even at higher MP levels, but it takes some skill to do.

As for nobody giving MP 10 advice, I don't know. The conversation basically went like this:

Simplemath: I've tried dozens of builds on MP10, trying to solo ubers. One worked for me.
Darkmist: "I don't think you experimented enough with other builds. For starters, the wave of light build I use is far better than I could have ever hoped. I can farm with it in mp2 as easily as I could in mp0."
Piffle: So you're trying to tell Simplemath that he has no idea what he's talking about?
Darkmist: "As always, a new build is going to take a while to gear up to 'soloing ubers'. I agree that I have less credibility because I haven't done that sort of thing. But I think there are more builds for a monk out there that can be just as, if not more, effective."
Simplemath: Cookiecutter is popular because its THE BEST BUILD.
Darkmist: "Disagree. It is popular because it is a simple build with an easy to understand concept."

It sure sounds to me like you are trying to invalidate what Simplemath is saying, stating that there are other builds out there that are more effective than what he is using. The thing is, the cookie cutter build isn't used because it's easy to understand, it's used because it is the most efficient / best / whatever word you want build. This is not something that a magical fairy floated down and delivered unto us mere mortals that we are incapable of understanding. This is something that people can prove out with actual numbers. Go read Druin's post on spirit spenders. Go read up on how the damage snapshot of SW works along with skills like Blind. Go look at some actual numbers instead of just saying, "Well I think you're wrong because in all the months that people have been testing these things out, there are multiple builds that have never been thought of that are definitely more effective!"

Sorry, but monk build diversity sucks.

12/05/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Franchize
Why is everyone focusing on MP10

Because smashing through lower MP levels is easy. I can go spend half a million gold in the AH and get a full set of gear that allows me to use whatever build I want to successfully complete MP 0. This is easy. Completing MP 10 is not. That's the point. Overgearing content allows you to use substandard builds because your gear makes up for the inefficiency of the build. It is harder to overgear MP 10 than it is to overgear MP 0, so when people talk about the most efficient/best builds, they reference it to MP 10 because that's where build actually matters (assuming again that you don't just completely outgear it).

And before someone brings it up, TR builds are built specifically for MP 0, don't compare the two.
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@druin By the way - in your beautiful (srs, awesome stuff) primary spreadsheet (i'd never seen your TR thread somehow) WotHF:BF generates more spirit than any other skill except spirited salvo and gives you 15 uncapped ms.

Having a 10% wothf soj doesnt hurt either.


Thank you! I am sincerely glad you didn't take my previous post as a personal insult!

I re-read it and thought maybe you would.

I will absolutely try your spec. It is far enough removed from other specs that there is no good way to know if it works or not without trying it.

I am really glad that you enjoy my spreadsheet! Although many people seem to like my guides / comments the most, that spreadsheet is what makes me the most personally proud.
:D

While it is true that Blazing Fists mathematically makes the most spirit per second of any useful generator at 0IAS and 0CHC, when you stack those two stats it gets somewhat worse.

Math:

IAS:
Because BF gives you IAS% and not a base increase in attack speed, it suffers from diminishing returns.

Example: BF does 160% paperdoll DPS per mob and then gives your paperdoll DPS a 15% IAS buff.
If you have 0IAS from gear, this will come out to 160*1.15 = 184% DPS.
If you have 50IAS from gear, you will have 160*1.5 = 240% DPS already and then an additional 15% from BF for 160*1.65 = 264
264/240 = 1.1 or 10% increase.

This means that with 50% IAS on gear, BF's buff is only a 10% increase in total DPS not a 15% increase as you might think.

Thus, the spreadsheet DPS would look like 160*1.1 = 176% DPS.

This may not seem like THAT big a difference, but it does mean that Blazing Fists does less damage than it would initially appear.

Similarly, the IAS buff is what gives Blazing Fists its VERY high spirit/sec of 10.49.

However, this is a base of 9.12 * 1.15 = 10.49

If you have 50% IAS on gear, you only get 10% increase in IAS from BF and so you end up with BF giving 9.12 * 1.1 = 10.03 which, while still much higher than all the other spirit gens, is less than it would initially seem.

CHC:
Because Quickening, Strike from Beyond and Rising Tide all have spirit on crit effects, their spirit/sec numbers are not possible to calculate in my spreadsheet without knowing each individual monk's CHC.

Assuming a healthy average CHC of 33%:

Quickening has a spirit/sec of: 9.12 + (15*0.33*1.52) = 16.64
This is WAY higher than anything else and only goes up when you get more CHC.
Note: Because FoT:Quick is single target for the first 2 hits, this spir/sec does NOT scale well with more targets.

Strike from Beyond has a spirit/sec of: 8.04 + (10*0.33*1.34) = 12.46
This is pretty garbage when you consider the fact that Blazing Fists, without a spirit on crit mechanic makes pretty close to the same ... poor SfB :D

Rising Tide has a spirit/sec of: 8.17 + (5*0.33*1.17) = 10.10
This also sucks compared to Blazing Fists which doesn't really have that much worse of an AoE.

tl;dr - If you have a lot of crit, quickening can be pretty boss, otherwise Blazing Fists is stroonnnnng.
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12/05/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Franchize
Why is everyone focusing on MP10

Because smashing through lower MP levels is easy. I can go spend half a million gold in the AH and get a full set of gear that allows me to use whatever build I want to successfully complete MP 0. This is easy. Completing MP 10 is not. That's the point. Overgearing content allows you to use substandard builds because your gear makes up for the inefficiency of the build. It is harder to overgear MP 10 than it is to overgear MP 0, so when people talk about the most efficient/best builds, they reference it to MP 10 because that's where build actually matters (assuming again that you don't just completely outgear it).

And before someone brings it up, TR builds are built specifically for MP 0, don't compare the two.[/quote]

You are 100% correct sir, that is why I don't get why you want to play mp10. Your admitting their is no build diversity or item diversity in mp10 and that this limits gameplay and your overall game expereince. Then why did you spend countless hours and gold to achieve a goal that takes away from the game. If you can go spend half a million and dominate mp0 then why not diversify your builds so lower mp levels are still fun for you and you still have a challenge. If mp 10 is so awesome why is it limiting your gameplay and items how would you not be more happy playing on mp5 or mp6 with gear you actually like and different builds. I totally understand your logic, what I don't understsand is your need to play mp10 when it takes away from the game.
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12/05/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Druin
tl;dr - If you have a lot of crit, quickening can be pretty boss, otherwise Blazing Fists is stroonnnnng.


I used Quickening for awhile, but once I started getting efficient at tapping stuff with the wothf first hit to keep the MS up it started to "feel" faster and i started doing clock runs, worked for me a little better.. Not draining while channeling TR and having 250 as a bell budget for elites works fantastic - drop a few then pop infused with light, finish off elites with wothf to restack BF and spirit, and off you go again, rinse\repeat. Use the smaller mob groups exclusively for BF recharge. Drop bells on the bigger ones - the dmg radius is enormous.

*edit* Spirit management definitely much simpler with quickening though and forgoing the Spirit on a SOJ for a leoric makes it that much harder again. People say there is no skill in this game, but they are wrong. Resource management for something like this requires real focus and skill.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/5/2012 11:58 AM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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@Piffle

I would contend that DS:Quicksilver is an adequate replacement for Serenity on MP10 :D

I agree with basically everything you have said except for that one point. I truly believe that once you get to a certain level of play/gear serenity is simply a wasted slot.

I may not be the most accurate representative of the average monk though ;)

Things you can do with DS:
Immune freeze, immune vortex, dash out of jailer, dash our of molten, dash away from firechains, dash through lazers.

You can do this with no CD and thus GAIN survive against many long-fight packs.

It also provides movement through levels which is invaluable once you have the content on farm.

You can't DS your way out of RD, you have me there!

<3

Note: I do not think DS is an adequate replacement for Serenity vs Ubers. I agree with Simplemath that beacon + seren + faith is simply the best combo hands down for Ubers.
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I used Quickening for awhile, but once I started getting efficient at tapping stuff with the wothf first hit to keep the MS up it started to "feel" faster and i started doing clock runs, worked for me a little better.. Not draining while channeling TR and having 250 as a bell budget for elites works fantastic - drop a few then pop infused with light, finish off elites with wothf to restack BF and spirit, and off you go again, rinse\repeat. Use the smaller mob groups exclusively for BF recharge. Drop bells on the bigger ones - the dmg radius is enormous.


To be totally clear so I can re-create your conditions to the best of my ability, you were playing on MP1 and using 30% leoric's + hellfire correct?
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12/05/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Druin
To be totally clear so I can re-create your conditions to the best of my ability, you were playing on MP1 and using 30% leoric's + hellfire correct?


Yep
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Im still looking for a viable build mid-high mp level that does not require SW (not that i hate SW, its just... well, you guys know what i mean) (T_T)
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also a xephirian and an inna's with gen (both 2+).. i forget the exact number i was at with leoric instead of SOJ but with templar, IS up and circular breathing it was like 11.3 or 11.4
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12/05/2012 12:09 PMPosted by simplemath
also a xephirian and an inna's with gen (both 2+).. i forget the exact number i was at with leoric instead of SOJ but with templar, IS up and circular breathing it was like 11.3 or 11.4


~2.3 inna's +.33 inna's ~2.2 xeph 3 IS 3 Circ 1 ES 12% templar 35% GP
2.3 + .33 + 2.2 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 11.83 * 1.47 = ~17.40

:D
Edited by Druin#1518 on 12/5/2012 12:12 PM PST
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~2.3 inna's +.33 inna's ~2.2 xeph 3 IS 3 Circ 1 ES 12% templar 35% GP
2.3 + .33 + 2.2 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 11.83 * 1.47 = ~17.40


40 spirit bells never looked cheaper. Way spammable.
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Because smashing through lower MP levels is easy. I can go spend half a million gold in the AH and get a full set of gear that allows me to use whatever build I want to successfully complete MP 0. This is easy. Completing MP 10 is not. That's the point. Overgearing content allows you to use substandard builds because your gear makes up for the inefficiency of the build. It is harder to overgear MP 10 than it is to overgear MP 0, so when people talk about the most efficient/best builds, they reference it to MP 10 because that's where build actually matters (assuming again that you don't just completely outgear it).

And before someone brings it up, TR builds are built specifically for MP 0, don't compare the two.


You are 100% correct sir, that is why I don't get why you want to play mp10. Your admitting their is no build diversity or item diversity in mp10 and that this limits gameplay and your overall game expereince. Then why did you spend countless hours and gold to achieve a goal that takes away from the game. If you can go spend half a million and dominate mp0 then why not diversify your builds so lower mp levels are still fun for you and you still have a challenge. If mp 10 is so awesome why is it limiting your gameplay and items how would you not be more happy playing on mp5 or mp6 with gear you actually like and different builds. I totally understand your logic, what I don't understsand is your need to play mp10 when it takes away from the game.

I don't play MP 10. I am incapable of it with my current gear. Well, I guess that's not entirely true. I've done one key run on MP 10. I was basically just curious to see what I could handle. I died a handful of times and ended up skipping one group (fat shamans with fast + molten).

What you bring up is certainly a viable way to play though - nobody *has* to finish MP 10. Or any MP for that level. If you have fun trying out new and interesting builds (Cyclone + LTK!) on lower MPs, by all means, go ahead and do that. If you have fun going through MP 7 for experience and farming, even though you know that it is not the most 'efficient' MP to farm then do that.

Everyone should be playing this game the way that they most enjoy it. Some people happen to enjoy the test of beating the "hardest" content. Others like to tinker with spreadsheets and find the most efficient builds or routes. Some people like to play the AH.

Personally I like to switch it up. Zipping through lower MP levels using TR cracks me up. But when I like a challenge I dial the MP up to 9 and farm keys. In fact, I'd like to see if I'm capable of doing Ubers solo on MP 8 (or 9?), but I'm almost always doing Uber with friends so it seems selfish to use my machines for just me when they share theirs!

ps. I didn't spend countless millions, I spent ~216 million which is less than I've made from playing the AH. ;)

@Piffle

I would contend that DS:Quicksilver is an adequate replacement for Serenity on MP10 :D

I agree with basically everything you have said except for that one point. I truly believe that once you get to a certain level of play/gear serenity is simply a wasted slot.

I may not be the most accurate representative of the average monk though ;)

My gear isn't good enough to do MP 10 with Serenity soooo ... yea. =P

I tried DS for a while before and I never really liked it. I'm assuming operator error and lack of skillz, but it always seemed to me like the times I needed the mobility the most (fire chains, molten, frozen thingers about to explode) were the times when there was nothing left on screen to dash to outside of the mob I was fighting. And in most of those cases, then moving to the backside of the mob didn't really help me much.
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I'll make a video of MP10 DS no-seren sometime.

Though I am 100% sure I will just get flamed for using a sw-lock 1.8APD dagger/shield combo :P
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DS opens the door to all sorts of fun micro possibilites - for regular elites and general purpose use - if you can survive as well as you could with serenity and still melt them nearly as fast as with the uptime serentiy gives you. I just find serenity to be the better option 90% of the time. I tried a speed build with way of the falling star instead of TR for awhile... could not make it as good as TR in any circumstance
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Simplemath: I've tried dozens of builds on MP10, trying to solo ubers. One worked for me.
Darkmist: "I don't think you experimented enough with other builds. For starters, the wave of light build I use is far better than I could have ever hoped. I can farm with it in mp2 as easily as I could in mp0."
Piffle: So you're trying to tell Simplemath that he has no idea what he's talking about?
Darkmist: "As always, a new build is going to take a while to gear up to 'soloing ubers'. I agree that I have less credibility because I haven't done that sort of thing. But I think there are more builds for a monk out there that can be just as, if not more, effective."
Simplemath: Cookiecutter is popular because its THE BEST BUILD.
Darkmist: "Disagree. It is popular because it is a simple build with an easy to understand concept."

It sure sounds to me like you are trying to invalidate what Simplemath is saying, stating that there are other builds out there that are more effective than what he is using. The thing is, the cookie cutter build isn't used because it's easy to understand, it's used because it is the most efficient / best / whatever word you want build. This is not something that a magical fairy floated down and delivered unto us mere mortals that we are incapable of understanding. This is something that people can prove out with actual numbers. Go read Druin's post on spirit spenders. Go read up on how the damage snapshot of SW works along with skills like Blind. Go look at some actual numbers instead of just saying, "Well I think you're wrong because in all the months that people have been testing these things out, there are multiple builds that have never been thought of that are definitely more effective!"


I'll try to keep this short and simple.

It's my opinion that you can't base your opinion about build diversity on mp10.

It has taken people a long time to build up to these difficulty levels. Other builds will not be proven over-night.

Personally, I have looked at math, spreadsheets, and forum posts just like everyone else. And my opinion still stands that at my level of play and with my gear - the wave of light build I'm playing is hands down better than any experiments I did with the cookie cutter builds. I haven't min/maxed all of the stats, but it is obviously more effective with my current gear set (I traded weapons out to suit the builds).

The fact that people are still stuck on the cookie cutter build just makes it seem like, for all the number crunching people have done - that there is still a lot to learn.

I'd like to see Druin's posts to see if there is any information on spirit spenders that would help my build.
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