Diablo® III

Does the lack of build variety...

12/05/2012 01:04 PMPosted by darkmist29
It's my opinion that you can't base your opinion about build diversity on mp10.


I don't always consider the Monk to have diverse builds, but when I do Its when I'm walking around the streets of Caldeum.
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@Enot: Holy hell, did I write that? That's probably one of the worst sentences ever. I'm too tired to argue.
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If it makes you feel any better, I did laugh when I read it the first time.
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It does.
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@Simplemath

Well, I tried out your build:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#UcYSeQ!bdZ!ZZcYbZ

First off, the interaction between Wave of Light and Blazing Fists is amazing.

If you are in the attack animation of Blazing Fists (which is LOOOOOONG with a Skorn) and then cast Wave of Light, it will animation-cancel the Blazing Fists attack and instantly Bell.

However, it still counts as being in the Blazing Fists attack cycle so any crits caused by the Bell activate Blazing Fists' buff.

This means if you start to attack with the first hit of Blazing Fists then animation cancel it into a bell on even 2 mobs, you instantly go to 3 stacks.

Furthermore, you can spam Bells while attacking with Blazing Fists this way, you simply animation cancel the first attack over and over and you get auto attacks while casting bells.

I LOVED this mechanic.

That being said, I was unable to produce anything that even remotely resembles good xp/hr let alone the simply stunning numbers you have seen.

My average run on MP1 took ~9 minutes and gave ~10.2m xp.
This is ~68m xp/hr.

I can do the same run on MP0 with my TR build and get 8.8m xp in ~6 minutes for ~88m xp/hr with a lot of consistency.

Even assuming I got better at this playstyle and got the run down to 8 minutes, AND I got extremely lucky with the mobs and shrines and got 12m xp AND used leoric's which would put my bonus xp from 107% (NV+Ruby) to 137 for a total gain of 2.37/2.07 = 14.5% increase.
12 * 1.145 = 13.74m
60/8 = 7.5 * 13.74 = 103.5m xp/hr.

Basically, assuming absolutely insane circumstances, I still don't get even close to as much as your 115m.

tl;dr - I will have to see a video of you doing this to determine what I am doing wrong.

Awesome skill synergy though!! Huge major props on that!
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Interesting read, haven't popped in since page 1.

As far as the Serenity vs. Dashing Strike arguments, since its being discussed from a purely "oh #@% button" standpoint, have you guys ever tried using Slipstream? Its what I used like 10 days after launch to get past Belial when I was EXTREMELY undergeared.
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I'll try to keep this short and simple.

The fact that people are still stuck on the cookie cutter build just makes it seem like, for all the number crunching people have done - that there is still a lot to learn.

And I'll keep my response simple.

The fact that you still believe there is some magical build that nobody has yet conceived, despite the number of people that have been number crunching and min/maxing for months, is mind-boggling to me.

But hey, what do I know.
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12/06/2012 07:56 AMPosted by Piffle
The fact that you still believe there is some magical build that nobody has yet conceived, despite the number of people that have been number crunching and min/maxing for months, is mind-boggling to me.


I really don't think you've been paying attention then. Yes, there has been a lot of number crunching. But there has been a lot of speculation too. I've seen too many Monks complaining that they can't survive in mp8+. Some people would say it is because of their gear, but I think it is a lack of understanding of the Monk class.

Look, you don't seem to want to give an inch on this conversation. But I will take a step back again in hopes you'll think about what I've said. Pretty much all of the theorycrafted builds have been thought up of, sure. And the only build to be proven out there in mp10 is the cookie cutter monk build (i wish there was a better name for it, because I really don't mean to be condescending to the build, I have respect for it because it was my build for a long time). One of my many issues with the build is that it doesn't even come close to comparing to how good some of the Whirlwind barbarians have it in mp10. Plus, the area of effect damage sucks for Monks unless you are exploiting sweeping wind somehow.

Barbarians are able to sustain pretty well in mp10 without dying, and I wanted to find a way for my Monk to do something similar.

My belief that my wave of light build is better than the cookie cutter is only based on performance at my gear level. I am number crunching, min/maxing stats, finding a balance between ehp and dps, and generally finding a way to sustain in higher mp levels.

So I'm not really here to prove anything, because my only case is my own experience (just for the record, I always assumed simplemath was telling the truth about his experiences too). I'm only here to say that the future of Monks is probably good, and that it seems to me that more builds are out there that we can learn how to use.
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12/04/2012 12:01 PMPosted by Quantum
Am I missing something from the game right now? Are there actually more build options that I'm just not seeing discussed on the forums? Is there some secret to farming that I'm missing?


I have tried every type of build now trying to answer those questions.

We have ONE build for high level MP farming.

We have ONE optional build for low MP farming.

We have several options for tank builds which are useless for farming.

The main issues are:
1. We are handcuffed by having the most expensive gear as we share dps gear with Demon Hunters.
2. We are handcuffed at high dps level for needing Life Steal.
3. We are handcuffed for tank build that might use MOR due to the need to take vast amouts of damage without mitigation.
4. We are handcuffed by reflect mobs that require the use of LS when monks were designed around LOH.

Of the classes, it is the most constrained by far in build choices. You can do "other" builds, but you will have to do them on low MPs.
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Ok, I've been reading this thread over again I think I understand everyone's point of view. So:

-As for Serenity vs DS goes...

Thanks for the clarification, yes I meant DS can replace Serenity on lower MPs. Helps reduce traveling time too, that's why it can/should be included. To be more exact, Serenity is redundant on lower MP, and including either TR or DS can significantly improve farming time. Since the cookie cutter build has low spirit regen, DS is more efficient for the job. Is it possible to completely replace Serenity for DS on higher MP? I really don't know, I don't believe so. But since you asked......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtviS0bTc3A&feature=youtu.be

I know there's no RD, no Vortex Arcane etc, but hey I'm undergeared especially on the DPS side. You can say I cheat with Blinding Light too. Or maybe that's the whole point.

-As for "best build" goes.....

As of 1.04, I can accept the fact of 'one build to rule them all', cuz there's only 1 monster level, in short, one kind of 'run'.
But it's 1.05 now. You have different MP to choose from. You can, challenge the extreme, or tone down a bit and enjoy owning everything and get more loot. In short, 'goals' set for 1.05 onwards:
-Item farm
-Xp Farm
-Key/ring farm
-Uber MP10 challenge.

If the cookie cutter, or if there's a 'build', at all, that can excel and own on all the above aspects, please let me know. If not, then there's no such thing as 'Best Build'.

What absolutely pisses me off is that when someone has the gear to do MP10, found out, maybe, the min/maxed 9 skills, to overcome that kind of harsh condition, which, a rule that applies to all classes in game(except barb), comes and boasts about how that build is the 'best' full stop; 'one build to rule all'; other builds that can effectively farm more xp/items in an item hunt game are just 'whatever'. Then dissed whoever says otherwise so that average gamers stuck at mp1 or 2 would actually think that build's the 'best' but in reality are not at all efficient to getting more/better items/gold to advance to next level?

Best build my Inna's Temperance.

@Simplemath

"Cookie cutter build is best build with capital B fullstop' 'Only a true build can withstand mp10' followed by 'I've been trying TR build it's awesome'?????? What have you been smoking man? ' Top of the food chain'???? For real? First off, Blizz designed the cookie cutter. Not you not anyone Blizz did. Blizz tested the build before anyone else does. I hope that makes your ego feel better.
Secondly, the only 'food' in this game is high rolled yellows and browns, and the only 'chain' here is back to back brown drops. So either I'm theorycrafting about farming efficiency, while at the same time, me, or pretty much the rest of the community's elite kills magically goes up, or you killed this one mp10 ZB and it drops like 10 browns for you. If that's the case please carry me on mp10 I'd love 10 browns in 1 go. If not, then maybe you should stop dissing pretty much everyone else and shove that 180k or whatever DPS worth of ego up your Pox Faulds. Now ARGO.
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Stop putting words in my mouth. MP10 - Cookie cutter is the best. I didn't design it, I never claimed to. What I am claiming is that for you to tell me "I haven't experimented enough" when you have no idea what will or wont work in MP10 because you cant play there is ridiculous. You don't know, so basically, stewfoo and listen. The point of me qualifying cookiecutter as "the best" is that for combination of survivability + damage, ***there is not a better skill combination***. Cookiecutter + beacon wins. It is the best build. Best as in "I can take and give the most damage using this combination".

And I'm just talking about monk. We are in the Monk forums after all.

IMO, high damage CM is a superior build to anything, if we're talking about all classes - which I guess we are now since you say so.

For farming \ XP TR is the best. Best as in "Most xp per hour" for monks. There is some healthy ongoing debate on what the best version of that is. But the key components are speed and spirit gen. The variations are fun but dont necessarily lead to a huge variety of "builds" where you are relying on completely different skillsets to accomplish your goal. Same for cookie cutter. Swap out serenity.. swap out BoH, or whatever, the core is FoT\Overawe\Cyclone. This is my point about lack of build diversity.

You can fiddle around with whatever build you want as long as you've outgeared the content.

You can call me conceited until you're blue in the face, but it sure doesn;t make me wrong.

Speaking of egos, maybe you should check yours before you start telling players who are doing things you can't that they don't know what they are talking about, and "shove your 70k dps starter TR kit up your noob azz"
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@Druin

I'll work on putting something together as far a video is concerned. it doesn't actually sound like we're too far apart - my best runs were definitely an extreme case and I did average ~25 or even 30m\hr less than my very best runs, which again were serious outliers and extraordinarily difficult to achieve. I mean 0 deaths 0 dead ends, and I spent weeks before I put together a single afternoon of flawless running. I think you could definitely squeeze out another 20-25% after you get used to it.

I'd say overall, your vetted version is probably more user-friendly overall, maybe slightly less top end potential, but probably much more consistent. In the end I doubt that the xp potential of my version is not enough to justify the increase in incidental difficulty for most players - not to mention some pretty extreme gear reqs.

Thanks for the shoutout on skill combos :) BF + Bellspam is definitely fun as hell.
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@Druin

I'll work on putting something together as far a video is concerned. it doesn't actually sound like we're too far apart - my best runs were definitely an extreme case and I did average ~25 or even 30m\hr less than my very best runs, which again were serious outliers and extraordinarily difficult to achieve. I mean 0 deaths 0 dead ends, and I spent weeks before I put together a single afternoon of flawless running. I think you could definitely squeeze out another 20-25% after you get used to it.

I'd say overall, your vetted version is probably more user-friendly overall, maybe slightly less top end potential, but probably much more consistent. In the end I doubt that the xp potential of my version is not enough to justify the increase in incidental difficulty for most players - not to mention some pretty extreme gear reqs.

Thanks for the shoutout on skill combos :) BF + Bellspam is definitely fun as hell.


I can't possibly give you more props for how hard your build is to pull off.

I have a macro mouse that turns on TR at the beginning of a run and then I can TR-rush for hours on end with just 1 hand.

Your build takes sincere concentration the whole time which, TBH is SUPER FUN.

Needless to say, I will be playing around with it more in the future.

I think if they increased the duration of Blazing Fists buff your build might start to become better in a strictly better sort of way ... it is just SO short that even with maxed out move speed AND the animation canceling to keep it up I was dropping it constantly when I got even the slightest bit unlucky.
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12/06/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Druin
I think if they increased the duration of Blazing Fists buff your build might start to become better in a strictly better sort of way ... it is just SO short that even with maxed out move speed AND the animation canceling to keep it up I was dropping it constantly when I got even the slightest bit unlucky.


That's what i meant when I said it was downright stressful trying to max the build out... Mistime a Bell cancel? Lost your buff. Catch on a corner? Lost your Buff. Misplace a bell and have to drop extras to clean up? Forget hitting that record.

its a serious tightwire act, and like I said before definitely the most difficult thing I've ever done in this game and sure as hell requires serious focus. Pro level tryhard face.

Glad you're having fun with it :)

Also, since you have a good chunk more passive gen than I did making my run you might be able to skill swap for more damage... Foresight would look awfully nice instead of BoH - but I'll be damned if i dont need that healing on CD to stay up, especially on reflect. I'd love to see someone with GFG gear in all slots have a real go at this, I don't necessarily think what I did is the best possible. I am sure though I could not have done an inch better at my gearing.
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@ Mr top of the food chain

I didn't put words in your mouth please check what you said.

Dude you keep saying cookie cutter's the best build base on the MP10 situation. Why would that comment hold true at all if the OP is just asking about build diversity in general? Yeah thanks for your GLORIOUS insight on how to survive mp10, but does that really affects how someone farm at lower MP? It's unfair to compare mp10 with mp9, nor mp2 to mp0, let alone mp10 to all other mp. "No build diversity on mp10" does not equal to "no build diversity overall". Yea sure you can say

12/06/2012 04:18 PMPosted by simplemath
You can fiddle around with whatever build you want as long as you've outgeared the content.


That is build diversity right there, you said it yourself! Dude EVERYTHING in this game is based on gear. So don't demean the legitimacy of synergies between other skill/builds just because you're geared/over geared for it and mathematically it does inferior single target DPS compared to the Blizz designed combo, for all viability is relative to monster hp and gear, and that overkilling rewards nothing, and on top of that, mobility has to be taken into account, for more efficient farming runs in an item farming game.

So unless mp10 rewards you with way more legendary drops, and there's no build diversity but at the same time you can fiddle around with builds as long as you have the gear, I'd say you are wrong. To be more exact, you proved yourself wrong.

And thanks for enlightening the community that given 70k dps monk to you all you're capable of is starter TR tyvm.
Edited by Babydoll#1167 on 12/6/2012 8:24 PM PST
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