Now, for your questions:
Would you mind telling me what you would recommend? I have the X amulet with poor spirit regen but putting it on gives me 80k dps which is really low. I have a bit over 120million, what would you recommend me on investing to level faster to p100? I spent over 80 and bought a lot of the wrong things like low spirit SoJ, none AR gear, etc etc and dont want to do it again. If needed and would hate to do it but I really am getting anxious to hit p100 is to buy gold but but but.. i mean only if I absolutely have to.
I am sorry that it has taken me so long to respond to your question so hopefully you still get this!
The road to plvl100 is a long long long long one even with maxed out, perfect TR gear getting 100m xp/hr.
It will take weeks and weeks of non-stop farming to get there in the best of circumstances.
I don't tell you this to discourage you just to give you a clear picture. Plvl100 is a great goal to have but it is also a very long term goal. I would sincerely recommend focusing on a shorter-term goal such as "saving enough gold to buy X item" or "get my run-time down to Y seconds"
These sorts of short-term goals can make the grind to plvl100 feel much less tiresome!
Generally, 80k DPS is too low to get good xp/hr out of a TR build.
If you have a rare ammy that puts you over 100k dps then I would use it with one of hte mid-tier builds.
I would be happy to discuss this gearing choice in more depth with you in-game if you want some more specific guidance! :D
Yes, follower's Leoric's aren't quite the greatest investment xp/hr-wise. Though I would've expected it to be closer to 2m xp/hr:
Your comments on Leoric XP calculations, which I believe to be entirely correct, from questions in the comment section of this guide:
You SHOULD use a ruby in helm (31% bonus xp) and a hellfire ring (35% bonus xp) and NV stacks give between 0% and 75% bonus xp.
Without Leoric's you have 166% to 241% bonus xp during any given run.
Some additional notes:
Follower bonus flat and percentage XP apply at 20% reduction rate. For example, Hellfire Rings roll 35% bonus xp so placing one on a follower yields 35% * 20% = .35 * .20 = .07 = 7% This means that with a (radiant star, not marquise) ruby in helm (31% bonus xp), a hellfire ring (35% bonus xp), a follower hellfire ring (7% bonus xp) and varying NV stacks (0-75% in 15% increments) percentage XP gained increases from the 166-241% xp range noted above to 173-248% xp range. I believe this to be correct, because it is consistent with the notes in your 1.0.7 addendum.
You have Hellfire Ring, Radiant Star Ruby in hat, Hellfire ring on Templar and 5 Stacks of NV.
That is 35% + 31% + 7% + 75% bonus xp = 148% bonus xp.
For each 1 xp you would get normally, you will instead get 1 * (1+ 1.48) = 2.48 xp.
Now I will assume the use of a 30% bonus XP Leoric as this is a discussion regarding min/max.
This gives 30% * 20% = .30 * .20 = .06 = 6% bonus xp. This increases xp percentage ranges further from 173-248% to 179-254%. However, the specific bonus XP percentage doesn't mean anything in terms of xp/hr unless we have a baseline xp/hr for comparison.
As this ongoing calculation is, again, min/max, I will use the highest xp/hr that that I understood you to regard as a safe general expectation, the xp/hr from your youtube timed run, which you calculated at 86,831,052 xp/hr at ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27pVrEbME9s#t=20m40s ).
There are three brief notes about using xp/hr numbers from this video.
I selected the run with the highest xp/hr. I'm assuming this can be done consistently. As I'd of heard TR monks regarded to be in the 90mil xp/hr range I believe this is a safe assumption.
While you did not take precision beyond seconds into account in your calculation, I'm going to defer to your expertise in this sphere and understand that as a convention for xp/hr calculations given the degree of potential human error involved.
Thirdly, for your follower's rings, as you have a Hellfire Ring on all followers on your armory page and included follower Hellfire bonus xp percentage in your 1.0.7 calculations, I will assume you were using a follower Hellfire. Likewise, as you have no Leoric's on any followers on your armory and have stated "However, I never really got up the gold reserves to essentially light a pile of money on fire for an extra ~1m xp/hr on average :D" I will assume you were not using a follower Leorics.
So, at 173-248% xp you earned 86,831,052 xp/hr. Increasing this range to 179-254% confers a 254/248 to 179/173 ~= 1.02 to 1.03 scalar increase. To establish a lower bound on the xp/hr increase, we will use the lower of the two ratios, the one valid at 5 NV stacks, 254/248. The new xp/hr could therefore be expected to be at a minimum 86,831,052 * 254 / 248 = 88,931,803 (truncated to integer) xp/hr. The difference in xp/hr is then AT MINIMUM 88,931,803 - 86,831,052 = 2,100,751 xp/hr.
In general, xp/hr difference is given by the range 6/248 * xp/hr to 6/173 *xp/hr.
TL;DR: Follower's Leorics confer at least an additional 2m xp/hr on an endgame TR monk xp farming on Druin's route. In general, they provide greater than a 2% increase in xp/hr unless you are using a Cain's set.
Thank you Druin, for a very professional and complete guide.
This kind of post warms my heart!
The formatting and thoroughness of your post is exactly what I love to see in any comprehensive-style explanation.
If you wouldn't mind, as my guide was lacking this information previously, I would love to use your post, pretty much as-is, in the main-guide and then credit you so that people can see the actual math behind using +%bonus xp jewelry on their follower!
Let me know (though I will take no response as consent in a couple of days!) ;)
Also, thank you very much for the support!!
02/02/2013 08:20 PMPosted by StevieWell written guide, Druin. I have finally purchased a Life Steal Skorn and now my journey begins to upgrading my SOJ to about 1.75 spirit regen with 6-7 crit to Tempest Rush. Question I have been pondering the past few days... Do you think using Ice Climbers as a means for double res as an alternative to gloves and bracers if you're trying to up your DPS but cant afford good(high all res) Zunimassa's Trail? Love to hear some input on that.
I am really glad you liked my guide! :D
Grats on your LS Skorn and good luck with the SoJ hunt, it can take a while but I am sure you will find one!
As for your Ice Climbers question, I think it is a totally viable item.
Here are my concerns regarding IC's:
You either lose 12% Move speed or you pay a TON of gold for MS IC's.
This is the biggest problem because the entire point of TR is to move fast. If you give up MS for a couple extra stats, you are probably not gaining the most out of this build.
If you do choose to go with non-MS IC's you are pretty much forced to get Lacu's. However, Lacu's with CHC cost a TON and you are now dealing with an extra 8-9% IAS which means you need mroe spir/sec.
This isn't the worst thing in the world and I think there is probably a REALLY end-game TR build out there using ultra-high dex IC's + really good Lacu's ... but it's a lot more expensive than Zuni's + Rare bracers imo.
Note: in 1.0.7 this becomes even more true with the advent of BoA bracers that spawn with 200-230 Dex and present a BiS possibility when combine with Zuni boots.
It is really hard for IC's to out-dps or even compete with Zuni's.
The 7-8% poison damage on Zuni's is a LOT of DPS when combine with your black-damage Skorn and the only stat that IC's has to compete with is massive amounts of Dex.
TR is a naturally Dex-starved build because of its need for lots of Spir/sec gear, so the dex on IC's is better than it would be otherwise, but it is still hard to compete with flat +% damage.
All in all, I much prefer Zuni's but IC's have so much more eHP that I can totally understand using them instead.
02/05/2013 10:26 PMPosted by VoxDISNEYLAND!!!! I have this hilarious image of you tempest rushing to the front of every line and consuming massive quantities of cotton candy to regen spirit. Everyone else looks dazed and confused!
Hello there Vox,
I wish ... instead we waited a total of 2.5 hours in line for the Peter Pan ride (my wife's favorite) which we went on 3 times!
It was all worth it though, she is sooooooooo happy! :D
I finally purchased a LS skorn (was looking for a nice one since before you upgraded, Druin, but they went up like rockets after you announced you were gonna get one! Yes, i've been shopping for a looooong time). I can report it's definitely easier (esp vs. reflect, which i can ignore now--yay!), but not as much as I thought it would be. The good LS skorns may not be worth the price right now compared to other upgrades for most monks.
I find this very interesting.
Can you explain what you felt was "not as much" as you thought it would be?
I only ask because my personal experience is that with LS on my Skorn I can sleep-tank MP0-10 and without it I die frequently as soon as I either meet a hard pack or move the MP dial above 3.
This is with LOTS of eHP and AR and Armor and such.
I agree that the prices on LS Skorns are possibly unreasonably high right now, but it is also the only weapon that fits an entire build-structure. I use my Skorn when TRing MP0, TR/bells'ing MP1 VotA, TR/Cookie-cutter'ing MP6 keys and Cookie-cutter/bells'ing MP10.
It is the only weapon I have and the only weapon I need. I do not feel like any other item in my kit (other than my Inna's helm) provides that level of comprehensive use.
For this reason, I generally recommend a LS Skorn as the first and most important "BiS" purchase for Monks who are in love with the TR lifestyle.
Second, I finally made the switch to scoundrel from templar. And, I lubs him! Extra dps and cc is totally noticeable. So is the damage he delivers at ~20k dps via multishot. There's always a tradeoff though. In this case, i think I'm probably giving up fleet footed for a spirit regen passive in order to generate sufficient spirit with scoundrel. Ultimately scoundrel could be the less efficient choice, but i'm just glad to hear a different voice and get some variety!
This I agree with wholeheartedly!
Because of the way CHC works (each additional 1% CHC is MORE effective than the last 1%) the 3% gained from the Scoundrel is a much larger DPS increase than your paperdoll indicates. (assuming you are using SW:Cyclone)
The Scoundrel also does far far far far higher DPS, when properly geared, than any other follower and that can net you some extra xp.
The only reason I don't talk about the follower is that people have SO much trouble with spirit as-is, I figure they don't need to worry about another source of dropping spir/sec for more DPS.
That is a problem only a very few of us are dealing with! :D
Has anyone looked at overawe vs. submission again on 1.07 PTR? It would seem that as proportion of total damage done by TR increases, overawe improves vs. submission. Since the TR buff currently proposed is so huge, I'm wondering if overawe may win out?
I can pretty easily show this calculation.
Here are the numbers taken directly from my 1.0.7 effects post:
This gives the following Scalars to damage:
TR - 1
SW - 2.5
SW:IS - 2.5
SW:F - 4.42
SW:C - 6.0
Submission - 8.5
End-game spec in 1.0.7:
TR = 155% * [1 + 015 (BW) + 0.12 (Sub)] * [1 (scalar)] = 196.9%
SW:C = 60% * [1 + 015 (BW) + 0.12 (Sub)] * [6 (scalar)] = 457.2%
Sub = 12% * [1 + 015 (BW) + 0.12 (Sub)] * [8.5 (scalar)] = 129.5%
Total DPS = 783.6%
End-game spec with Overawe in 1.0.7:
TR = 155% * [1 + 015 (BW) + 0.24 (OA)] * [1 (scalar)] = 215.45%
SW:C = 60% * [1 + 015 (BW) + 0.24 (OA)] * [6 (scalar)] = 500.4%
Total DPS = 715.85%
Net Difference = 783.6 - 715.85 = 67.75%
Net Change = 67.75 / 783.6 = 8.65%
You will lose about 8.65% total damage done.
Note: these numbers are probably a bit off because MoC does NOT effect all mobs that Cyclone hits due to Cyclone hitting things off screen. This will further tip the scales in favor of Submission as the 24% damage buff from Overawe will have less of an effect.
So you lose 8.65% total damage done but you gain damage done to Elite packs.
How does this weigh in?
Let's take my average run on my way to plvl100. This run took 6 minutes and gave ~8.7m xp for an average xp/hr of 87m.
Let's assume I spend ~1.75 minutes of the run killing elites.
(If you think this number if wrong, as I am just guessing, then adjust the following numbers for a more accurate calculation)
Because I would do 8.65% less damage, I would expect to get 8.65% less xp.
8.7m / 1.0865 = 8.01m xp/run.
Now, we can expect the runs to be faster because we kill elites more quickly.
In order for my new 8.01m xp runs to be better than my old runs they must be at least 1.0865 times faster.
6 min / 1.0865 = 5.52 minutes
However, this increased speed must all come from killing elites faster which means you must now spend 6 - 5.52 = 0.48
1.75 - 0.48 = 1.27 minutes killing elites.
This is a 1.75 / 1.27 = 38% decrease in time spent killing elites.
Therefore: If Overawe allows you to kill elites more than 38% faster, it will increase your xp/hr over Submission in 1.0.7.
Obviously there are a LOT of soft-assumptions made in order to make these numbers calculable but I would expect them to hold up reasonably well when testing.
My conclusion here is that this is VERY rarely going to be the case. You would have to be in some very extreme conditions for Overawe to allow your elite kill speed to increase by 38%.
tl;dr - no, I do not think that Overawe will beat out Submission in 1.0.7 for xp/hr.
I'm also thinking it could make more sense to run overawe at higher MP since submission's range would be less important (i.e., you'd actually have to stand next to Elites using some sort of generator or spender to DPS them down. If large, these sources of damage would benefit greatly from overawe).
This is much more possible, though I still doubt it is the case.
At some point, when looking for loot/demonic essences, it may become worthwhile to reduce the amount of trash you kill to increase the amount of MF/item drops you have (increase MP level).
When this is the case, Submission's passive DPS will be of GREATLY reduced effect because trash mobs will become a much smaller portion of your desired kill spectrum.
However, I still think that Overawe will have a hard time making it into the list of desired TR skills.
The reason for this is that Overawe is essentially a spirit spender that scales with Attack Speed (it scales with all damage increases actually ... but IAS is one of the big 3) while TR inversely scales with Attack Speed.
This means that TR monks will almost ALWAYS gravitate to spirit spenders that do NOT scale with attack speed so that they can continue to get the most out of TR while also gaining a lot from other skills.
For example: I was faced with the choice between MoH:Circ + Bells vs MoC:Overawe + Spirit Generator (WotHF:FoF being the highest DPS when not using SW:C) when killing elites in my VotA run and, even before 1.0.7, Bells + Circ CLEARLY wins that war.
This is because Bells, like TR, do not scale with Attack Speed and so I get 100% efficiency from my gear-set while I miss a HUGE chunk of "easy" damage with Overawe by specifically avoiding most sources of IAS.
That being said, Overawe + WotHF:FoF was not terrible and I used it for quite some time before switching to my Bells spec. I was able to get pretty good elites/min.
Dr.Uin, you still in Disneyland area?
wanna come have a drink with me here in Hollywood? >:D
lol jk, haha. xP
note : awesome, right on post #700, hehehe. >;)
Welcome back to the forums. (I don't think I was here for your homecoming post, though I did read your poem and found it quite enjoyable!)
Sadly, I am no longer down south and am back to the daily grind that is work! :D
P.S. Grats on #700, I expect to see you 77 posts from now! ;)