Good morning everyone!
I am curious as to how MoC can work this way. What about party members? If you have overawe on and a barb does damage with +150% skill damage does this only add 14.4% damage instead of 24% ? Does Diablo look at the debuffs on a monster then apply these separately to the unbuffed and buffed portions of damage done to it ? That seems rather complicated. The tooltip for for MoC states it increases damage monsters take not just the unbuffed portion, although I guess tooltips don't mean much.
Do you have a link to Vrkhyz ' analysis ?
This would really change my view on item/skill balance. This would mean getting DPS from items is much stronger than from skills.
It is possible that I miss-communicated how MoC works to you.
Currently, according to VERY convincing data by Vrk, MoC counts as another "% damage buff" for all damage done by all sources that hit monsters effected by it.
Some quick and easy examples:
Let's say you are using MoC with no rune for 12% increased damage.
1. You hit a monster with FoT once.
You will do 110% weapon damage * [1 + 0.12 (MoC)] = 123.2% weapon damage.
2. You hit a monster with FoT once and you have Blazing Wrath and DR:Foresight buff on.
You will do 110% weapon damage * [1 + 0.15 (BW) + 0.18 (DR:F) + 0.12 (MoC)] = 159.5% weapon damage.
You will NOT
do 110% weapon damage * [1 + 0.15 (BW) + 0.18 (BW)] * [1 + 0.12 (MoC)] = 163.86% weapon damage.
3. If a baba uses Bash on a monster affected by your MoC.
He will do 165% weapon damage * [1 + 0.12 (MoC)] = 184.8% weapon damage.
4. If a baba uses Bash while Wrath of the Berserker: Insanity is up (100% increased damage).
He will do 165% weapon damage * [1 + 1.00 (WotB:I) + 0.12 (MoC)] = 349.8% weapon damage.
He will NOT
do 165% weapon damage * [1 + 1.00 (WotB:I)] * [1+ 0.12 (MoC)] = 369.6% weapon damage.
Hopefully these calcs help clear up how it works.
Basically, MoC is slightly worse than you think because almost every class has a % damage increase skill or two activated at all times to boost their DPS and MoC is scaled back in effectiveness by these.
I have personally tested this theory and found Vrk's calcs to be correct down to the decimal.
Talked with Master Druin ingame, what an awesome guy, really knows his stuff. A build and guide can only get you so far, the tech support is what gets you the rest of the way!!
I VOTE DRUIN FOR GAME DIRECTOR D3 :)
It was a pleasure to chat Krieg, thanks for the support and good luck with your 5x plvl100 project! :D
02/08/2013 09:14 PMDisagree on using a Skorn, I've tried it and don't like, yes my "paper doll" dps goes way up, but I still have almost infinite spam of TR using two fist weapons with spirit regen on them, if I need more I just stop for 2 seconds hit some stuff with quickening and its back to TR spam... Seems to work extremely well and can't wait for the TR/SW buff come next patch, right now I'm flying through mp2 like its mp0 and with the buffs hoping MP4 becomes a breeze for some serious xp farming.
Posted by Fizix
If you are using 2x 1h weps and playing on MP2 then we are almost certainly talking about different builds! :D
Is it possible that you are talking about the cookie-TR hybrid build that uses FoT:TC + SW:C to kill packs and TR:Tailwind to get from pack to pack?
If so, I completely agree! That build basically requires 2x 1h weps and would suffer greatly from the slow attack speed that Skorn provides.
However, for a "pure" TR build that expects to kill most monsters with TR + SW + Sub, using 2x 1h weps is virtually impossible.
I say virtually because if you could somehow afford 2x 1.1k DPS 2+ spir/sec 80%+ CHD 150+dex 1h fist weps, you could almost certainly TR with them. It would still be worse than a Skorn as TR (and consequently Cyclone) do not scale well with IAS.
Furthermore, because TR strives to one hit kill most white-mobs, it is pretty important to play on a low MP level.
I have recently had some good conversations with a 200k+ DPS TR monk and even he was having issues killing stuff quickly enough on MP2 to make it worthwhile.
tl;dr - we are probably talking about different builds! :D
My pleasure Narc.
02/09/2013 04:15 PMThank you for the guide Druin, it's been a real help.
Posted by Cyno
I am glad that you like my guide! It is my pleasure to be able to help out!
I really like your monk. I feel like your build has a lot of concerted effort put into it and it all works well together to give you a set of stats that put you pretty far up in the ranks of TR monks.
1. Get to 120k dps.
Seems easy enough. I got Life after kill on amu and ring, that should be enough for now. Leaving me free to get a skorn with extra high dex or attack speed (I have the spirit regen to match it). But this solution also gets in the way of the easiest route to goal number 2... So maybe some different changes? I'd love to get some more crit chance of the few pieces that are still 1% or more under max.
It seems to me that BY FAR the easiest way for you to gain DPS is through your ammy.
Your skorn is actually pretty darn good and upgrading it, while a good goal, might be a longer-term one.
For the ammy I see you having two choices:
1. Save up, buy a rare with same dex same crit and all or phys resist AND 80%+ CHD.
That amount of CHD at your level of DPS is worth a TON.
2. Wait for 1.0.7 and craft nothing but ammys for 10 years. (This is my plan so I am not hating on it).
The 1.0.7 BoA ammys have a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY higher chance of being good than rare ammys and have an automatic 200+ dex roll. This means that the second you craft a high CHC moderate CHD + mitigation stat BoA ammy it will be a ~15k DPS upgrade for you.
Second possible upgrade would be the same plan with BoA Bracer. They have 200+ dex and you would just need to craft them until you got 6%CC with some mitigation stat (AR, PhysR, Vit or vit/dex).
Either of these options present you with a (relatively) cheap +10k dps path that doesn't require moving away from your Skorn which means you can start saving for a true BiS Lifesteal Skorn.
2. Get to 40k hp.
Getting a Skorn with vitality should just about cover it. They aren't that cheap without losing dps and crit dmg, but it's meant to be a goal and not something I can just do now. Alternatively, I can just get a bit more vit on other gear pieces. Maybe the new crafting system will be kind for me with gloves :-)
While getting to 40k HP is a noble goal, I question your motives! :D
I have 31k hp and have no trouble surviving MP6 with a Bells-TR hybrid build.
My personal belief is that Monks are a mitigation class and so stacking mitigaiton tends to heavily outweigh stacking HP.
With this in mind, I would recommend focusing on mitigation over HP.
3. Get rid of OWE.
Yup, 'spensive and a lot of work. I expect this to be more of a long term goal, but who knows. It's not hard to figure out what to do here. Replace phys res with allres, allres can ofcourse roll higher than phys, so I won't have to get it on all of the pieces.
First off, I applaud you for aiming to ditch OWE.
I think it is one of the best choices I made and boy was it painful to do.
Spending millions of gold on items that feel like STRICT side-grades hurts! :D
However, you are sitting on Phys Resist right now so dropping OWE is something you should do the very second you log in. Switch OWE to STI! :D
In MP0, the only things that kill you consistently are Reflects Damage elites and Fallen Maniacs and both (despite the graphic for Maniacs) do phys damage.
This means that, for the important sources of damage, your single-stacked resist is functioning as All Resist.
I am almost 100% certain that if you switch OWE to STI you will see a giant increase in surviveability.
From there, you can remove phys-res for All-res slowly over time and, once your AR gets to the ~400 level, you will be able to drop STI and move to Fleet Footed or Exalted Soul (whichever you prefer).
Let me know what you think and if you know easier ways to get to these goals. Also, I'm thinking of dropping the blind for serenity once 1.07 hits, any insights? I feel like I don't really need a spirit generator with 14 spirit/sec.
Unless you plan to TR at higher MP levels (which requires slightly different gear) than I think the switch to STI will take care of your mitigation needs for now. Serenity is a wasted skill for TR monks IMO.
Instead, I would recommend switching out SSS:FO for WoL:Empowered Wave (a strictly better skill in 1.0.7) and then CoR -> ES (so you have more spirit for bells) and then Faith -> Air Ally.
The Ally has a small SW which will help clear trash (more damage spread) AND it will periodically give you 100 spirit which helps make up for the lost 1.47 spir/sec from switching CoR -> ES.
Just as an aside, I recommend EVERY monk with SSS:FO on their bar right now to switch to WoL:Empowered Wave come 1.0.7. WoL is op :P
Regarding 1.07, from what I've read emeralds still get you more dps, but won't a ruby help more when it comes to killing stuff? I figured crits kill mobs regardless of that extra crit dmg and the ruby will help with normal hits.
You most certainly do get more dps from an emerald.
There is an argument to be made for putting a Ruby in your wep (and I will definitely experiment with it) but for now, I would assume that you are going to be sticking with an Emerald.
The problem is that even though I would GREATLY prefer Average Damage over CHD because of the lower variance, the difference in DPS is too large to make that trade off worthwhile.
Again, I will test it, but both SW and MoC:Sub do damage "continuously" which means CHD = Average damage for them. It is only TR and Cyclones that gain variance from CHD. So you aren't even getting the full benefit from Rubies adding non-variable damage.
Hopefully that wasn't too much to read! :D
Reached plvl 100.
My big thank you to Druin for the guides, and Seaboot for the route.
Here's the short youtube clip
Yay!!!! Welcome to the club!
Here's to you not getting bored now that you can't get xp anymore!
Seems good enough if fits the data. Do the scalars scale linearly with increased area? If so, I wonder if this would overestimate scalars at high area?
Would it be informative to run a couple high MP Azmodan tests on 1.07 with 1-2 versions of usual TR build while varying only MOC-overawe vs. MOC-submission? I'm thinking this would present the extreme case of one target/maximum benefit of overawe, and, based on the size of differences in time-to-kill (edps), might tell us whether we need to spend any more time wondering about overawe vs. submission. i.e., if they end up being same edps on 1.07, we'd know that in all (single-player) cases, submission would be better.
The scalars will scale linearly with increased area but area increases exponentially with radius.
So a 20yd radius skill is not 2x higher than a 10yd radius skill, it is much more than that.
I did use a 0.5x modifier for the "effect" of area on damage because player choice reduces the increased effectiveness of damage due to area.
Area only makes it more likely for a skill to do damage and player choice ALSO makes it more likely for a skill to do damage. If we were all playing blindfolded, you would want skills with the highest possible radius because you wouldn't be able to do damage with small-aoe skills 99.999% of the time.
I do not think I am overestimating the effect of Area on Damage while moving. However, I have no good way to prove this theory right now (other than long long long long hours of xp/hr testing with as many constant variables as possible) so I agree that my findings are nowhere near rock-solid.
Running Azmodan DPS tests wouldn't tell you anything about AoE damage increases.
Az is the definition of something that Overawe is better for than Submission. He will spend 100% of the time being hit by every skill you have and is therefore very good for testing "true" eDPS and very bad for testing "true" white-mob DPS.
For reference people have run the numbers and run the Az tests for Sub vs Overawe many times before and it's not close. Overawe out-performs Sub by a long shot.
This is not representative of their effect on your xp/hr though because you are not moving, and you are only killing 1 stationary non-randomly placed monster.
02/11/2013 12:13 AMgreat thread, Druin could you take a look at my monk and advise what to change to boost dps? skorn with 1400+dps would be great but it cost fortune :>
Posted by n0rek
Thanks for the support! :D
The reason you are lacking DPS is due to having very very very low CHD.
The three main places that TR monks get CHD are ring/ammy Skorn and gloves.
You have 0 on ring/ammy and gloves and very low on Skorn (150% base and only 70% from gem).
If you would like more DPS without losing other stats a Skorn with exactly the same Damage but 180% CHD and then a Rad star emerald would be a 60% CHD increase.
Then you could make the (painful) switch to CHD gloves.
Lastly, your bracers have 3% CHC which is pretty low so I would recommend getting some new ones that are int he 6% range.
Obviously a 1400 dps Skorn would be great, but I do not think it is necessary to get your DPS to a good TR level.
As an aside, I would HIGHLY recommend switching OWE to STI.
You currently have 172 phys resist which means OWE is giving you 172 AR while STI would give you ~ 1300 armor.
Even at dead-even 1300 armor is almost equal to 172 AR, however, for TR monks Phys Res is already >50% of the damage you take. This means that with STI, you will have a MUCH easier time with Reflects Damage and Fallen Maniacs.
You also have MORE than enough HP to survive pretty much anything! :D
Hope that helps!