Diablo® III

Maintaining WotB minimum requirements

Having played a bit with dual wield and 2H setups, I became curious about what the minimums are to keep WotB up indefinitely and why it is so difficult to achieve with a 2H build and what you need in terms of IAS to make perma-wrath easy for WW and hammer builds.

Now, the APS listed below are the amount needed to simply spam just HotA or WW/tornadoes and maintain WotB. This means, APS beyond these amounts simply makes it easier to recharge the timer. You don't have to get more than these APS values, since you can also weave fury generators into your damage rotation to get more fury. But, you do want to be close, especially for HotA, otherwise you can't spam the skill as much and your damage suffers.

*>>WW/tornado Build<<*

The basic cutoff is driven by making 25 fury per second. This depends on how many WW and tornado 'ticks' are actually hitting stuff. The analysis is based on the most difficult case -- an elite that runs away a lot with a small hitbox. So, 2.5 tornadoes are assumed to hit on average and 1 WW constantly channeling.

"-" column is non-mighty weapon (i.e. sword, axe, mace, spears, etc). All cc is assumed to be fully buffed with WotB active. Attack speeds are rounded up to nearest breakpoint. So .45 cc with MW would be 32% cc with just passives, 35% with battle rage, then 45% with WotB running. If you have Overpower: Killing Spree (OP:KS), then that would jump to 55% cc buffed. ALL OF THESE NUMBERS ASSUME WEAPON MASTER PASSIVE!

No fury passives
0.45 4.00 2.86
0.50 4.00 2.50
0.55 3.33 2.50
0.60 2.86 2.22
0.65 2.86 2.00
0.70 2.50 2.00
0.75 2.50 1.82
0.80 2.22 1.82
0.85 2.00 1.67

With Animosity
0.45 3.33 2.22
0.50 2.86 2.22
0.55 2.86 2.00
0.60 2.50 1.82
0.65 2.22 1.67
0.70 2.22 1.67
0.75 2.00 1.54
0.80 1.82 1.43
0.85 1.67 1.43

With IK5 or Unforgiving
0.45 4.00 2.50
0.50 3.33 2.22
0.55 2.86 2.22
0.60 2.86 2.00
0.65 2.50 2.00
0.70 2.22 1.82
0.75 2.22 1.67
0.80 2.00 1.67
0.85 2.00 1.54

With Animosity + IK5 (or unforgiving - but lose cc here)
0.45 3.33 2.00
0.50 2.86 2.00
0.55 2.50 1.82
0.60 2.22 1.67
0.65 2.00 1.54
0.70 2.00 1.54
0.75 1.82 1.43
0.80 1.67 1.33
0.85 1.54 1.25

IK5 + unforgiving
0.45 3.33 2.22
0.50 2.86 2.22
0.55 2.86 2.00
0.60 2.50 1.82
0.65 2.22 1.67
0.70 2.22 1.67
0.75 2.00 1.54
0.80 1.82 1.43
0.85 1.67 1.43


Please also see: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=50
for tick breakpoints.

*>>Hammer build<<* - TL; DR --> 1.83 unbuff APS

For hammer, there are a couple of factors:

1) Fury per second spent from hammer
2) Fury per second gained from hammer

Assuming you are gaining infinite fury from superstition or getting mobbed (usual case when farming), 1) is the limiting factor. With no HotA cost reduction, you need only 1.25 aps to spend 25 fury per second with hammer (very easy). With -5 reduction, you need 1.67 aps. Note there is player skill here not factored in!! You can spam other fury spenders to dump fury when you are hammering on many targets. I find this carpal tunnel inducing, so I am just giving the faceroll numbers here (1.25 and 1.67).

Now for ubers or single target elite, 2) becomes the limit.

Assuming you have 100% crit chance on hammer with gear and items, the minimum APS you need is 25/(15x.8) = 2.08 APS. The 0.8 is for the proc coefficient of hammer:smash, what most people run for ubers. In practice, you need less than this, depending on your passives and combat situation. Damage received will generate fury, and you can cheat against most elites with superstition passive, which can generate a huge amount of fury per second (enough to sustain WotB on it's own as long as you are spending fast enough). Additionally, if you are using frenzy maniac, you will be weaving in a hit of frenzy, which generates 3 fury + battle rage procs.

So in theory, just spamming hammer on one target, requires the equivalent of 84% ias for a Skorn, which corresponds with 12 ticks per second for WW. So generally speaking, hammer builds require higher IAS to maintain WotB in single target situations relative to WW/tornado, but you can make up for the deficit with a passive like superstition and standing in pools on purpose. With animosity passive, the APS requirement drops to 1.60 (18 fury per crit), but I feel superstition is overall a better solution.

In actual play, these numbers mirror my experience.

I have run a variety of gear sets and current have about 1.74 aps fully buffed with near cc cap for hammer (not using animosity). I can keep WotB quite a while on one target, but it does fall off if I am not getting hit enough. The fury gained from mobs wailing on you is a huge benefit.
Edited by Jim#1333 on 1/30/2013 7:22 PM PST
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**HotA Q and A

Q: I can't keep WotB up in ubers with 2H Hammer build! What gear do I need? How do I get 1.84 unbuff APS, 50% cc without using the RMAH??

A: You may not need any new gear, just a change in play style and/or spec. For 2H play, it is nearly impossible to get enough CC and IAS to spam hammer while keeping WotB up. You should focus on frenzy as a primary attack and HotA + battle rage as your fury dumps. The goal here is to just keep WotB up for the DPS & defensive boosts. Use frenzy to generate fury through battle rage procs. If running superstition, you can spend less time building fury with frenzy, letting elemental/ranged damage fill your fury. Go through cycles of rebuilding the WotB timer with frenzy, then letting it tick down as you spam hammer.

So, the skill usage for maintaing WotB looks like this:

Frenzy to 5 stack, apply rend and refresh as needed
Spam battle rage constantly -- while frenzying and during HotA spam
Use HotA only when near maximum fury and unable to spend it down with battle rage -- empty your fury tank
Resume frenzy to full fury (always spamming battle rage and refresh rend as needed)

2H or low APS Hammer on multipe targets, or running superstition on a pool of something:
Frenzy to 5 stack, apply rend and refresh as needed
Spam battle rage CONSTANTLY
Use HotA when near maximum fury and unable to spend it down with battle rage - make sure to hit as many targets as you can
Use frenzy every 5 sec to keep maniac buff active
This is similar to DW play, except you must mash battle rage at all times to maintain WotB.

Example 2H setups capable of perma wrath on a single target with frenzy and battle rage+hota spam:
50% CC, 1.32 APS (unbuff), superstition, killing spree buff
43% CC, 1.48 APS (unbuff), superstition, killing spree buff

As you get higher APS, you will be able to spend/gain fury more quickly and use battle rage less often. High lifesteal also helps - you can soak lots of damage and turn it into fury.

Q: 2H HotA sounds exhausting with the constant battle rage spam. Why bother?

A: 2H HotA can do more overall DPS in multi target situations, hit and run targets, or situations where you can use superstition to refuel your fury. Rend hits harder than a similar DPS DW or SnB setup. Stronger rend is great for fleeing targets and for more heals.

2H also lets you 1 shot trash that may have taken 2 swing with dual wield. This speeds up key runs and lets you chain stun more easily with thunderstrike rune. Attack the fallen in front first -- one hit KO means the whole group is stunned and you can kill them at your leisure.

2H also is just one weapon purchase and can be cheaper to gear a hammer barb. You also don't feel compelled to get an echoing fury for high paper DPS. The fear on echoing fury is incredibly annoying for HotA play, especially since you usually do not have sprint in the build to chase the fleeing monsters.

Q: What about bash instead of frenzy for Ubers?

A: I've tried bash. At high crit chance (60%+ with WotB), fully stacked frenzy provides more fury per second than bash. So frenzy wins for 2H play. In SnB & DW play, you don't need fury as badly, but bash swings so much slower that you lose more HotA time. I believe this offsets the 24% vs 20% buff difference.

Bash is generally better for farming with HotA at lower MP because it takes less time to get to 3 stacks and maintaining the frenzy buff against many targets that die fast is difficult. For high MP key farms, frenzy can be better, but it's sort of a wash.

**Farming with WW at low MP

Q: I used to be able to keep WotB up at low MP levels, but I have better gear now and monsters die too fast! What do I do? I have high APS, but stuff dies too fast! Nerf my damage or increase MP level?

A: You don't need perma wrath to farm efficiently.
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80M8uk_2EjE&feature=youtu.be

credit: Ikigai

Perma-wrath is not needed to farm MP0-2 levels with high DPS (i.e. 150K+ with battle rage) and 24% movespeed. Drop WotB for Furious Charge:Merciless Assault and use overpower:momentum. Also, use unforgiving passive + weapon master + ruthless (or bloodthirst if you need it). Farm at an MP level where you WW through a single time and 90% of trash dies either in WW or the lingering tornadoes. The idea here is to keep fury HIGH so you have sprint up 100% of the time. Use charge and momentum to max out your fury. What is interesting about this build is it actually is BETTER with a 2H weapon over dual wield setups. This is because charge references weapon damage and does a huge amount of AOE damage. Overpower will also obliterate everything you touch with a 2H weapon. This allows you to kill elites very quickly.
Edited by Jim#1333 on 1/25/2013 4:29 PM PST
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Nice thread Jim. I recently switched to a Skorn mostly because I was getting bored of the cookie cutter dual wield/sprint/ww.

I'm not sure I agree with what you said in the other thread about dropping wrath altogether. With superstition, it's not really that much of a losing battle. I didn't have much trouble keeping it up with sprint/ww in MP7. It's far from "permanent", but as long as I'm fighting a pack that requires WoTB, it stays up- that's the beauty of superstition. Even beyond the obvious DPS and movement speed benefits of WoTB, you also get higher dodge chance, higher proc rates for everything, and overall a much smaller chance for things to go south. I don't feel like furious charge is anywhere near a suitable substitute.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 11/28/2012 7:14 PM PST
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My build is quite ok for perma WOTB in mp5-7 uber.
As long they dont run away it should be fine.

comments pls
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The other factor to consider is single vs multi target. HotA with multiple targets becomes much easier to sustain WotB. In HotA I also like running OP:KillingSpree for the extra 10% crit chance.
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You're on the right rack, but for your HOTA comments you're making a couple assumptions that may not be clear to everyone.

HOTA crit fury generation affects WOTB completely depending on the HOTA cost.

If you're HOTA cost is 13 (2 items for -7), at 100% crit each time you 'hammer' you 'spend' 13 fury, and a crit 'generates' 15 fury. You don't 'over' generate the fury.

So having animosity does not allow you to lower your IAS as much as you've added if you use a -hota cost item above -2. The additional fury generated from 'hits' also don't stack until you have a miss.

And the proc rate for HOTA varies based on rune. While most people would probably use smash (.8), some people may not realize that's what you meant.
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Yeah my numbers for HotA leave a bunch of stuff out, like the crit rate changing constantly. You need to be sure to spend that 25 fury as well regardless of what build you are using. With too much -fury on hota, you have to start spamming battle rage to be sure to eat up the gains. The 2+ aps is what results if you are spamming HotA on one target with some fury reduction gear, so basically an ideal situation. In practice, you will need more IAS (single targets -- multi target, much easier)...

@silverfire - we have near identical IAS and crit stats. I haven't tried WW with skorn in MP7. It takes too long to kill stuff with 147k dps (battle rage). Hammer is very effective and fast enough, but I can't fit sprint in to the build because there's no synergy. MP6 I can keep wrath up on elites, but recharging the timer to full is very difficult compared to dual wield WW. I feel like dropping rend feels like a bad move in general, so I like to keep it.
Edited by Jim#1333 on 11/28/2012 8:53 PM PST
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My biggest issue with HotA is the time that it takes to get between mobs since I don't trait Sprint. When I'm attacking I can reset it as long as there is either a) enough trash, or b) an elite pack. As well, I find mp7 is like a pre-req for keeping WotB up with HotA as stuff dies too quickly otherwise. I usually farm mp8 with HotA.
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amazing thread.
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Also note that hota thunderstrike is quite amazing for keeping up WotB at low mp levels. The on kill effect has a large aoe which generates a lot of fury when used in conjunction with into the fray. Unlike sprint/WW, there's no penalty to fury generation for having overkill dps.
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thanks for the analysis Jim. can someone post up a decent Hota build for ubers/mp10? I'm having trouble adapting to the playstyle after being too used to WW/nado build. thanks.
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11/29/2012 05:10 AMPosted by hoodrich
can someone post up a decent Hota build for ubers/mp10?

There are different builds out there (I've done mp10 ubers)...

The one that I am currently using is focused on crit chance and dps:
In this build I use Bash every 3-4 seconds to refresh my +24% damage buff. I'm also usually able to keep my Overpower +10% cc buff perma on for the most part.

A variation of the above you could swap the Overpower Killing Spree rune with Crushing Advance:

Some people like to trait a little crowd control but still do damage, along with keeping HotA, so they swap out Overpower for Seismic Slam with the Stagger rune:

Or a variation of the above is to use Weapon Throw w/ Throwing Hammer in place of Overpower:

And if you already have 6% LS on gear then you could trait the Superstition passive instead of Bloodthirst.
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thanks Kurama, I am going to simply replace my right-click with hota (removing WW), with frenzy as my fury generator and see how it goes. rend feels slow, but i may try working that in and swapping out IK belt for a witching hour to get added dps.
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You may use Frenzy sporadically for Fury, but your main source of Fury generation should result from HotA once you get started. As long as you have a high crit chance and can keep your Fury floating around half to two-thirds you should not have too much difficulty generating a bunch of Fury from HotA.
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That's a good technical analysis, good read. Thanks for the write up!
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11/29/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Heisenberg
Clicked this thread expecting a guide on the type of items and stats you should aim for perma-WotB.

Yes, and certainly there is a tonne of information already out there. There are a few different builds that use WotB->ToC the principal behind maintaining ToC is the same. While the playstyle of each varies, and the minimum gear requirements vary, the most important principal remains the same; spend and generate Fury. If you have close-to or full Fury then you will not be able to maintain ToC as you need to spend Fury to generate Fury. If you have full Fury and generate Fury you actually just generated ZERO Fury.

In terms of gear building for a WW spec is going to be much easier than building for a HotA, Seismic Slam or Weapon Throw build.

For WW I would peg the minimum requirements at around 30% critical hit chance and 1.2-1.5 attack speed. My technique while WW'ing is to keep my Fury at about half to two-thirds, constantly spamming Battle Rage and Sprint if I am above. The min-req could probably be pushed lower as in my opinion WW is really easy to maintain ToC as long as you have multi-targets.

For HotA and Seismic Slam (some Barbs will incorporate Weapon Throw into one of these builds) I feel as though the minimum requirements for gear jumps up quite a bit. Personally I would increase the minimum crit chance to at least 40% and the attack speed to around 1.5 minimum. As mentioned before the most important thing is technique, always try to have around half or two-thirds Fury.

For the above builds; if you trait passives such as Superstition or Animosity that will assist with Fury generation. I also think that it is important to trait Weapon's Master with either an Axe or Mighty Weapon. Lastly, Overpower with the Killing Spree rune can give you an additional 10% crit chance; if your crit chance is high enough you'll be able to spam OP every few seconds maintaining the buff. If you're struggling with survivability you can replace this with the Crushing Advance rune or whatever skill you prefer such as War Cry.

The above descriptions more-a-less handle the best case scenarios where your Fury management is perfect and your ToC timer is at around 1-3 seconds, but what happens when you're having trouble generating enough Fury? Well, before you go off spamming your Fury generator (Bash, Frenzy, Cleave) try including just one attack from your Fury generator every few seconds. Both Frenzy and Bash have runes that can increase your dps with a buff.. with Frenzy this single attack would have to be refreshed around every 2-3 seconds I believe, and with Bash you would want to time the refresh for every 3-4 seconds. I run with Bash->Punish as I have to spam Bash much less since the buff lasts longer. You could also run Bash->Intigation for the extra Fury regen, and in this case just hit the occasional Bash when you're at about half Fury. If you get down really low in Fury and am just struggling to get your Fury higher you can start spamming your Fury generator until you get your Fury higher. And if you're in danger of dropping WotB you can even keep spamming your Fury generator (plus your Fury spenders) until your WotB timer drops to a more cormfortable time.

In summary... while gear is important in my opinion it is optional and just makes the job easier. More importantly is technique. Spend Fury to Generate Fury, and skill combinations while playing that assist in Fury generation and dps. A veteren pro Barb could probably take sub-par gear and jump into mp10 and survive just because their technique is strong.
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Posts: 6,854
Great post Kurama.

@Jim -- fantastic write up.
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@silverfire - we have near identical IAS and crit stats. I haven't tried WW with skorn in MP7. It takes too long to kill stuff with 147k dps (battle rage). Hammer is very effective and fast enough, but I can't fit sprint in to the build because there's no synergy. MP6 I can keep wrath up on elites, but recharging the timer to full is very difficult compared to dual wield WW. I feel like dropping rend feels like a bad move in general, so I like to keep it.

I was trying MP7 with ww last night, and wrath was harder to keep up than I expected, but doable when using bash-instigation (sloppy, I know), as Kurama alluded to. I saw pretty much no difference between animosity and superstition, though one or the other is a must. I agree that rend is a must. I dropped HotA as the damage seemed like overkill. I didn't see much of a difference between MP6 and MP7. The bottleneck was more in chasing kiting mobs, etc, otherwise they'd take around 30 seconds, perhaps slightly north of it.

I used this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#aPUhRc!ZeY!bcZZYZ

@Kurama- nice info. You can get away with dropping war cry against MP10 ubers?

@hoodrich, I would try to work rend into your build. It's too much sustain and damage to just leave on the table. (not that you have any shortage of damage...)
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 11/30/2012 2:12 PM PST
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I am not quite sure what I am learning in this thread? Fury generation has a lot of variables with a WW build and I saw you factored some of them out with given information, but Overpower also has a 33% proc chance for Into the Fray and is available every 1-3 seconds for barbs with decent crit, as well as other skills involved like War Cry that generate fury, or any other list of skills involved in a WW build that contribute fury though inate generation or procing into the fray.....these variables contribute heavily to minimum requirements to keep WoTB going.

Unless I am way off base here....maybe I am reading into the message too much.
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