Diablo® III

Maintaining WotB minimum requirements

@Heisenberg

I did point out the tick breakpoints you should aim for. There are many ways to get there and it depends on what weapons you are using. I'm not going to provide specific gear advice because the market changes so much and it depends on what you have already, what your budget is, what mp you are farming, what other builds you run, etc etc.... too much.

The info is in my post, but will require more homework on your part.

@silverfire

I was playing practically the same build, except with bash:punish for the damage boost. It worked pretty well, but still lost wrath and I needed to save it for elites. Punish + rend is pretty good. I wish barbarians had another counter for frozen. If they did, I would drop WotB... You can time leaps around them, but a bit of lag and you are totally screwed.

@Wayne

I left Overpower crits and Warcry off because they don't help very much in a single target elite, ranged kiter, situation. I am calculating roughly 5 ticks per second required to bring OP back up again every 4 seconds. With the proc coefficient and 70% cc, you get 3.5 fury on average per activation against one target. So less than 1 bonus fury per second.

I also did not analyze bash/frenzy/overpower/warcry in more detail because the list of assumptions starts to get out of control, and I didn't think anyone would slog through that level of detail.

My calculations are basically the maximum IAS you should ever need for perma-wrath and WW/tornado in general. Basically, if you hit that 8+ ticks per second with 70% buffed crit, the game is complete faceroll in terms of maintaining WotB, even on challenging targets. If you have less, you will need to use your own skill and other strategies outside of mindlessly WW'ing around a target when facing difficult elites. Superstition can make up the gap. Weapon throw can help also.

At a bare minimum, every WW barb should try to hit the 6 tick mark to WW Azmo without pause. This is not easy with a 2H weapon, and you must go out of your way with legendaries specifically for it (i.e. jewelery/gloves IAS is not enough). It is easy for most dual wield setups to achieve.

Additionally, if you are resorting to bash:instigation to maintain WotB on a single elite, your damage plummets. You really want to be above those ticks to maximize DPS all the time. Bash:punish or Frenzy:maniac should be used instead, but not for the fury really, but for the passive damage boost. If every challenging target requires bash:instigation to keep your buff, you may be better off skipping them and finding something else to kill. Or maybe reconsider your build entirely.

Mainly this post is to give some theory behind what is seen in game and provide info on what tick levels you should aim for to have the easiest WW experience and understand what would be needed to make perma-wrath with a 2-hander possible.
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@Wayneold
You're getting more into what I was touching at regarding technique over gear.

@silverfire
To me there is no difference in difficulty of ubers from mp 7 to 10 except for the speed at which it takes to finish. Otherwise the incoming damage feels about the same. For instance, in SK/Magdha I usually just stand through lasers and butterflies even on mp10.
Before patch 1.0.5 was released I forced myself to drop War Cry due to the impending nerf. This was back when I only had 60k dps unbuffed and let me tell you I died more than I liked in 1.0.4. The beauty is that when 1.0.5 did come out the nerf to War Cry didn't affect me, and the nerf to monster damage felt like a huge buff to me as a result. I've never looked back since.
Whether I am running WW or HotA build (I swap between both depending on my mood) rather than traited something such as War Cry I instead, if I really need to, can always replace my Overpower Killing Spree rune Crushing Advance, but I'm in love with Killing Spree.
I also don't use either Animosity or Superstition in favour of Bloodthirst because I only have 3% LS on my gear, which brings my total LS to 6%.
Add me as a friend and we'll do some hunting together bro.
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Jim,

Awesome post.

I am absolutely loving my current build - Rend + perma-WW - and against bosses and elites it is fantastic up to MP8. I keep WOTB just for elite packs, and I can keep it up until most of them are almost dead, then it is just a bit of cleanup without my WOTB buff - but my frenzy buff makes up for that.

Ironically, reading your post, I am wondering if I am not using up my fury when it is full is preventing fury gains... I did not know this was the mechanic. When I ww, my fury is stacked to the max the entire time. I thought WOTB worked off fury generation, not fury gained. If I am topped off, does this mean My WOTB/BR is not increasing the time on WOTB because I am at max fury?

Separate question: I also noticed with my build that you have to be very careful using rend when there are a lot of mobs around you. It freezes me in place until the animation is complete, and it is like being stunned. I had a few deaths until I learned to not do this. Can I reduce this issue with more IAS?

Thanks!
Edited by Zork#1749 on 12/4/2012 9:44 AM PST
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@Wayneold
You're getting more into what I was touching at regarding technique over gear.

@silverfire
To me there is no difference in difficulty of ubers from mp 7 to 10 except for the speed at which it takes to finish. Otherwise the incoming damage feels about the same. For instance, in SK/Magdha I usually just stand through lasers and butterflies even on mp10.
Before patch 1.0.5 was released I forced myself to drop War Cry due to the impending nerf. This was back when I only had 60k dps unbuffed and let me tell you I died more than I liked in 1.0.4. The beauty is that when 1.0.5 did come out the nerf to War Cry didn't affect me, and the nerf to monster damage felt like a huge buff to me as a result. I've never looked back since.
Whether I am running WW or HotA build (I swap between both depending on my mood) rather than traited something such as War Cry I instead, if I really need to, can always replace my Overpower Killing Spree rune Crushing Advance, but I'm in love with Killing Spree.
I also don't use either Animosity or Superstition in favour of Bloodthirst because I only have 3% LS on my gear, which brings my total LS to 6%.
Add me as a friend and we'll do some hunting together bro.

Added you...def want to pick your brain about some things. I can facetank anything on MP10, including leoric's walk, maghda's flies and arcanes etc, but I get completely stomped by siege/kulle even in MP9.
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Jim,

Awesome post.

I am absolutely loving my current build - Rend + perma-WW - and against bosses and elites it is fantastic up to MP8. I keep WOTB just for elite packs, and I can keep it up until most of them are almost dead, then it is just a bit of cleanup without my WOTB buff - but my frenzy buff makes up for that.

Ironically, reading your post, I am wondering if I am not using up my fury when it is full is preventing fury gains... I did not know this was the mechanic. When I ww, my fury is stacked to the max the entire time. I thought WOTB worked off fury generation, not fury gained. If I am topped off, does this mean My WOTB/BR is not increasing the time on WOTB because I am at max fury?

Separate question: I also noticed with my build that you have to be very careful using rend when there are a lot of mobs around you. It freezes me in place until the animation is complete, and it is like being stunned. I had a few deaths until I learned to not do this. Can I reduce this issue with more IAS?

Thanks!

Your build is almost exactly what I use in MP6-8 as well. It's a nuisance how poorly rend synergies with sprint/ww, because it's such a great skill. It freezes you for a split second while it's being cast, if that's what you mean. While the bleed animation is going, you're still free to ww/sprint.

Additionally, if you are resorting to bash:instigation to maintain WotB on a single elite, your damage plummets. You really want to be above those ticks to maximize DPS all the time. Bash:punish or Frenzy:maniac should be used instead, but not for the fury really, but for the passive damage boost. If every challenging target requires bash:instigation to keep your buff, you may be better off skipping them and finding something else to kill. Or maybe reconsider your build entirely.


I still use instigation as primary and not frenzy or punish. My reasoning is that with this build, the bulk of your damage should be coming from ww, sprint and rend. The fury generator is just that- a fury generator, and a crutch to be used for when you're at risk to drop wotb, which should happen only rarely as long as you pick your fights well. You should not be using it for single-target DPS, that I certainly agree with. There's no doubt that Skorn is not optimal for sprint/ww, so such compromises have to be made if you want to use such a build with it. I never have problems with having wrath when I need it in MP6. I toyed around with adding boon of bul-kathos, but it seems unnecessary. With our type of gear, I hardly think anything in MP6 poses a challenge, and stuff should be dying quickly enough that the extra damage is not a priority...just my thought.

But of course, Skorn really shows it's strength when paired with HotA, rather than sprint/ww. The way I see it, if you want to maximize sprint/ww damage/farm speed, you might as well just use a mighty weapon. If you want to maximize raw damage to a couple of targets with rend/HotA, Skorn is the way to go. They're two different tools for two different purposes. The most common axe/mace+dagger/sword combo is probably the best rounded but is a compromise between the two.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 12/4/2012 11:09 AM PST
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There's no doubt that Skorn is not optimal for sprint/ww, so such compromises have to be made.


I find Skorn to be the optimal weapon if you have the 5-piece IK set. WW is all the fury generation I need, I am completely full 100% of the time if there is more than 1 mob. So I dont need bash, and frenzy does HUGE damage to single targets.
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I envy you 5-IK users....some day...
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Yeah I was not aware until recently that the 5 piece set gives you perma-ww. If I had known that, I would have bought it long ago.

RLTW is just my speed buff now, not my main damage. I WW around, rend, repeat.

Goblins are cake now, Frenzy + rend and they are toast.

I would like to be able to keep WOTB up longer, but the IAS I would need is too much of an investment, and I doubt I could ever get decent IAS + CC without Innas, Mempho, CC Lacuni, and tal'l armor (based on the above computations).

This spec does require more skill - WOTB is down much more often so you have to watch the affixes. Until I can afford a skorn with LS, I have to keep very high AR on my gear because I have no defensive skills. I get popped bad by some mobs if I stand in one place too long - thus my rend issue. The 1 second freeze has killed me a few times, and it can piss you off. Ironically, it has all been to white hard-hitting mobs when I get surrounded and I get overzealous with my rend.
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@Zork

Glad you enjoyed the read. What you are describing in terms of Wrath uptime is typical for any Skorn user without significant IAS stacking. You do need to be dumping fury, but with no IAS, you simply cannot keep WotB up indefinitely because you cannot generate fury fast enough. You are able to keep WotB up until there are 1-2 elites left, then it falls off. What I am describing in the initial post is what you need to keep WotB indefinitely, even against that one pesky elite. If you can do this, you can have the buff up continuously, just like battle rage, which is incredibly powerful.

It simply is not possible to keep WotB up on a small number of targets without stacking IAS if using a 2-hand weapon.

To answer your question about rend interruptions, IAS speeds up your rend attack animation. So, you can apply rend more easily with more IAS. I recommend the ravage rune so you can hit most targets without needing to be dead center with constant interruptions. With 48% ias, I can get rend off most of the time, but electrified targets can be problematic. WotB lets you ignore these interruptions, so you can rend at will while it is up (hence, why you should aim for perma wrath!).

I edited the OP because the loot gods bestowed some gear that made it possible to get enough IAS, without losing survivability, to make the WW build passable with Skorn. I noticed a big improvement once I passed 43% ias. I am running 48% ias with 43% crit chance (53% with WotB) with my 2H gear. Also, using the templar for 8% more fury generation + superstition passive. It is not enough to perma-wrath on Azmodan before the pools appear, but it is enough to make keeping WotB active for more than half of an Alkazier run possible (Alk run is the high density areas of Act 3 -- keeps 2, fields of slaughter, arreat crater 2). I can keep WotB for most elites and often have enough time left to use it on the next trash pack as well.

If you have not tried dual wield with the WW build, it is something you should. It is trivial to maintain WotB with a small (20-30%) amount of IAS (especially if you mainhand a mighty weapon).
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Jim, do you think that inna's are overall more effective than IK5? Those are some pretty high ias/cc numbers...

Skorn or not, the two end-game choices are usually inna's+climbers or IK5.
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Jim, do you think that inna's are overall more effective than IK5? Those are some pretty high ias/cc numbers...

Skorn or not, the two end-game choices are usually inna's+climbers or IK5.


@silverfire -- never really answered your question because when you asked it, there were a bunch of similar threads floating around :D. I think it was answered there, and generally people were saying move speed boots + rare pants are better than Inna's + godly ice climbers. But most people were thinking in terms of EHP/DPS numbers, and not so much about wrath uptime and fury generation, because most people do not run 2H builds.

My take: IK5 gives you 2 fury per second, which means you need 23 more fury per second to recharge WotB. This drops APS needed for hammer to 1.92 buffed (from 2.09), or 1.67 unbuffed. So you basically gained enough fury to equal about 17% ias for a 1.0 aps weapon. Mempo + Inna's gives you 16-18% ias, so it's a wash in terms of fury generation for the hammer build. However, with faster weapons, mempo+ inna will give you more than 0.17 aps, so your in combat fury generation will actually be better than with IK5. With animosity passive, the mempo/inna combo will be even better than IK5 passive.

The mempo/inna/iceclimber setup will give you more total IAS, more fury generation, more DPS, about the same CC, similar str, and a bit less EHP. So, I think Inna's + godly ice climbers are better overall, as long as you aren't needing the EHP from godly rare pants. This is for fury starved 2H play, where you really want as much IAS/CC as you can get to increase the ratio of Hammer spam to frenzy spam.

Now, if the IK5 setup lets you run OP:Killing Spree, things look much different... but generally you do not have this option and need to switch between warcry and something else.

What I do for ubers:

If more than 2 barbs, I run killing spree, use Inna pants on the easy fights and rare pants with 250 vit/60 all resist/armor on the hard ones.

If the party is monk(s) and 2+ barbs, I use ground stomp ;-)

If I am the only barb, I use warcry and Inna pants. Usually this means there is a CM wizard there.

If I am farming, I use Inna pants.

*** Also, I updated my second post in the thread with some more thoughts:

HotA Q and A

Q: I can't keep WotB up in ubers with 2H Hammer build! What gear do I need? How do I get 1.84 unbuff APS, 50% cc without using the RMAH??

A: You may not need any new gear, just a change in play style and/or spec. For 2H play, it is nearly impossible to get enough CC and IAS to spam hammer while keeping WotB up. You should focus on frenzy as a primary attack and HotA + battle rage as your fury dumps. The goal here is to just keep WotB up for the DPS & defensive boosts. Use frenzy to generate fury through battle rage procs. If running superstition, you can spend less time building fury with frenzy, letting elemental/ranged damage fill your fury. Go through cycles of rebuilding the WotB timer with frenzy, then letting it tick down as you spam hammer.

So, the skill usage for maintaing WotB looks like this:

Frenzy to 5 stack, apply rend and refresh as needed
Spam battle rage constantly -- while frenzying and during HotA spam
Use HotA only when near maximum fury and unable to spend it down with battle rage -- empty your fury tank
Resume frenzy to full fury (always spamming battle rage and refresh rend as needed)

2H or low APS Hammer on multipe targets, or running superstition on a pool of something:
Frenzy to 5 stack, apply rend and refresh as needed
Spam battle rage CONSTANTLY
Use HotA when near maximum fury and unable to spend it down with battle rage - make sure to hit as many targets as you can
Use frenzy every 5 sec to keep maniac buff active
This is similar to DW play, except you must mash battle rage at all times to maintain WotB.

Example 2H setups capable of perma wrath on a single target with frenzy and battle rage+hota spam:
50% CC, 1.32 APS (unbuff), superstition, killing spree buff
43% CC, 1.48 APS (unbuff), superstition, killing spree buff

As you get higher APS, you will be able to spend/gain fury more quickly and use battle rage less often. High lifesteal also helps - you can soak lots of damage and turn it into fury.

Q: 2H HotA sounds exhausting with the constant battle rage spam. Why bother?

A: 2H HotA can do more overall DPS in multi target situations, hit and run targets, or situations where you can use superstition to refuel your fury. Rend hits harder than a similar DPS DW or SnB setup. Stronger rend is great for fleeing targets and for more heals.

2H also lets you 1 shot trash that may have taken 2 swing with dual wield. This speeds up key runs and lets you chain stun more easily with thunderstrike rune. Attack the fallen in front first -- one hit KO means the whole group is stunned and you can kill them at your leisure.

2H also is just one weapon purchase and can be cheaper to gear a hammer barb. You also don't feel compelled to get an echoing fury for high paper DPS. The fear on echoing fury is incredibly annoying for HotA play, especially since you usually do not have sprint in the build to chase the fleeing monsters.

Q: What about bash instead of frenzy for Ubers?

A: I've tried bash. At high crit chance (60%+ with WotB), fully stacked frenzy provides more fury per second than bash. So frenzy wins for 2H play. In SnB & DW play, you don't need fury as badly, but bash swings so much slower that you lose more HotA time. I believe this offsets the 24% vs 20% buff difference.

Bash is generally better for farming with HotA at lower MP because it takes less time to get to 3 stacks and maintaining the frenzy buff against many targets that die fast is difficult. For high MP key farms, frenzy can be better, but it's sort of a wash.

Farming with WW at low MP

Q: I used to be able to keep WotB up at low MP levels, but I have better gear now and monsters die too fast! What do I do? I have high APS, but stuff dies too fast! Nerf my damage or increase MP level?

A: You don't need perma wrath to farm efficiently. See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80M8uk_2EjE&feature=youtu.be

credit: Ikigai

Perma-wrath is not needed to farm MP0-2 levels with high DPS (i.e. 150K+ with battle rage) and 24% movespeed. Drop WotB for Furious Charge:Merciless Assault and use overpower:momentum. Also, use unforgiving passive + weapon master + ruthless (or bloodthirst if you need it). Farm at an MP level where you WW through a single time and 90% of trash dies either in WW or the lingering tornadoes. The idea here is to keep fury HIGH so you have sprint up 100% of the time. Use charge and momentum to max out your fury. What is interesting about this build is it actually is BETTER with a 2H weapon over dual wield setups. This is because charge references weapon damage and does a huge amount of AOE damage. Overpower will also obliterate everything you touch with a 2H weapon. This allows you to kill elites very quickly.

For my Barb at 190K (battle rage), 24% movespeed gear, using a Skorn, I can farm as fast as shown in the video at MP1. Furious charge and overpower crits at 400-600K. MP2+ takes significantly longer to farm because the monsters don't die quite fast enough to have the group collapse inwards on the tornadoes after the first few monsters die, and a second pass is needed (2x longer to farm). MP2 would probably be efficient at around 250K dps.
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This is a great thread, thanks for this.

Im so confused by all the numbers though so need a simple answer.

For a Skorn with 1.00 attach speed, what is the minimum unbuffed APS required to sustain WOTB comfortably against ubers? How much IAS bonus is required from gear? I have 41% at the moment, adding more will mean losing a lot of eHP (ie. inna temperance).
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Hey Bankai,

Going to update initial post and streamline a bit. Gonna add some more maths on WW ticks and stuff.

I found that 40% ias with 1.0 aps skorn + 50%cc with just passives is barely enough to keep wotb up in ubers. You need to use killing spree. Superstition helps a lot too.

A trick for Siege/Zk is to rend Siege. Something about reflect damage he does makes a boatload of fury.
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Yeah I can easily hold WotB just spamming HotA and keeping rend applied on siege. He's as easy to keep a full fury globe on in practice as ghom. I think every reflects damage tick has a chance to proc superstition.

PS post #31 is a gem. It belongs somewhere more visible.

PPS I see it at the beginning of the thread. The title is maintaining wotb, but really this is one of the best 2h resources out.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 1/25/2013 4:02 PM PST
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My build isn't bad.. by no means is he the best.. but i can do mp8 and keep wraith up with no problem even with single enemies.. i use hota over power with fury replenished based on how many hit..
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Yeah I can easily hold WotB just spamming HotA and keeping rend applied on siege. He's as easy to keep a full fury globe on in practice as ghom. I think every reflects damage tick has a chance to proc superstition.

PS post #31 is a gem. It belongs somewhere more visible.

PPS I see it at the beginning of the thread. The title is maintaining wotb, but really this is one of the best 2h resources out.


Thanks! I added a bunch of tables to the first post for WW, since most people care about WW, not HotA. Some interesting findings when I did math with different passives for fury generation.

Superstition is again not modeled.
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Will take a look next time i play to test if it works for me, i just finished grinding my way to 100 in mp2, so its been a while since i have used a wotb build as no point in using it for low mp. Was having some issues keeping wotb up as it has been sometime since i last tried to do that and was dual wielding back then
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bump cause I see this question on the forums still.
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Bumping for some clarification as I try to understand this.

I had 2.15 APS prior to WotB, and 2.5 with WotB, which I believe is the cap. I recently switched out my ammy for one with more CC (8% to be exact), so my APS fell to 2.02 and my CC is now 53% prior to WotB. Was that a wise move? If anyone could look at my gear/build and tell me if I should make some other changes, that'd be helpful. I haven't play tested with new ammy yet, but before I made the switch, my WotB would decline quickly in between elite mobs and I relied quite a bit on bash/instigation to keep WotB up. Even then, I just wasn't generating fury fast enough to counter it's decline.

I'm basically just looking for a this is what my aps should be, this is what my cc should be, etc., plus any relevant build/gear advice.

My gear allows me to clear most of MP5 quickly and easily, MP4 for ubers.
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@Enhance

I would pick another slot of IAS up somewhere. Three peice IK is a mediocre bonus, helpful, but I think youd benefit more from hitting 2.5 BP.

You are a pure WW barb, so breakpoints are pretty important for you.

Try crafting gloves, get some with ias/cc to cover the ias issue. You need 9 IAS to hit the next BP. Even if you lose that AR, thats fine.

Some possible future upgrades:
LS Echoing fury, DPS isnat all that important here, ls/os would be fine.
Higher vit IK chest/inna pants. These are great places to pick up huge vit (chest is really lacking)
CD on your MH weapon.
Soj for ubers/essence farming.

It looks like you have a good understanding how that build works, but I would really go back to the 2.5 BP.

If you need numbers:
Your at 1559501 fully buffed (no follower)
At 2.5 APS BP: 1781990

220k increase per second

And if you went with a soj (6/30 offclass cold soj) to replace Faith Hold, youd be at 2017429 tDPS against elites, and at the 2.5 BP

You should have no trouble maintaining wrath unless its certain areas.
Try a higher MP? (the added LS on an EF would help a lot)
Make sure to keep spending fury from your globe, so you can continually generate more.

This video demonstrates maintaining wrath with your build decently, mainly focus on how i always keep my fury globe under full, and try to empty it before spinning thru packs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrGRiemJzXc&list=TLqTk5Oar-4FQ

I am working on better vids to demonstrate techniques. This vid is pretty old, but :P
Edited by RagingKoala#1984 on 8/22/2013 3:26 AM PDT
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