Diablo® III

Dear Wizards (specifically CM Wizards).

First of all, I'd like to apologize. At one point, due to the repetitive and stun-locky nature of CM, I assumed it would be a boring build, NEVER capable of holding my attention. I stand corrected. It was actually a pretty good time. I will never run a CM build consistently because it isn't my style, and ensuring that I'm enjoying the game the way I want to outweighs efficiency... Which is why you'll never hear me complain about being broke or having mediocre gear - I'm here to have fun and blow stuff up (which, you guys do well).

The bigger and more relevant issue I want to touch on goes into the cannibalistic nature of the Wizard forum, and how we are inadvertently hurting ourselves in the longterm.

Everytime someone suggests that CM is OP, there is this big uproar of angry CM players...But listen... It isn't relative to the entire game - it's relative to other wizard builds... But that is a communication error on the detractors part, I've decided. It's absurd that we should be restricted to this one style of play. The simple fact is that CM isn't OP, our class as a whole is significantly Underpowered. CM operates at a level of power that (and I hate to once again even mention it, as it always sounds like QQ) Barbs take for granted.

CM isn't overpowered (although there are some aspects of CM's interaction wiht Frost Nova that are broken, but that's another discussion), all of our other options are underpowered.

THAT SAID, can we get some more solidarity here? Until we acknolwedge that our class, as a WHOLE is broken, we won't be able to fix it. CM isn't the most popular spec because it's easy to play, easy to gear for, or any other myriad of BS reasons that people (including myself) have assumed in the past. CM is popular because it's the only viable option...

So my question is something along these lines... Is it detrimental to admit that it is a significantly SUPERIOR (see... better language!) build to 99% of other build options out there? I do not believe so, and I think that we, as wizards, need to come together and acknowledge two very simple things.

1. CM is vastly superior in both crowd control and damage output, to any other wizard build available. Archon could do more damage, probably, but it isn't nearly as sustainable at higher MP levels.

2. This is a problem.

Because the fact of the matter is that CM isn't the problem... and the absurd number of CM Wiz's that exist is a symptom of a significantly larger underlying problem. We don't WANT to be restricted to 1 option. This isn't WoW.

So, here is my plea - can we, as a community of players who are all interested in seeing the Wizard not be the joke class of D3 (outside of CM spec) come together to actually address why the fundamental core mechanics of our class are broken, and offer suggestions to how we could fix it. Nerfing CM isn't the answer, as it happens to be the only perfect configuration of skills that seems to be working as intended (at least, when you look at the state of...once again, the barb).

I'm talking... What would it take for you to use different skills? Go into theorycrafting, if you need.

Consider things that are simple solutions (damage increases, CD reductions...etc) versus massive overhauls (because those are things that, regardless of necessity, aren't coming for a very long time).

Let me give you an example:

For me to use Arcane Orb - Arcane Orbit, I would need it to do at least 100 WD, and in a slightly larger range, since the ACTIVATION range for it is so small. A larger orbit would also be nice.

I would love to use Arcane Torrent. It's one of my favorite abilities in the game, and it actually does phenomenal damage if you can stand still, but the problem is that it has a very long windup time, and channeling is fail in D3. I think in order to outweigh the very significant risks associated with using this spell, I'd need the windup to be eliminated or significantly reduced, and a slight increase in the splash radius of the attacks. The damage could realistically stay where it is and be fine, but with the windup and narrow "hit" zone, hitting fast moving enemies is impossible most of the time.

So... why is this directed at CM Wizards? Well, because that's the easiest way to get most of you to read the thread, since most of you are CM Wizards. Further, you are aware of what the power level of CM is, and so you should be able to offer more insight as to how they could tweak our other abilities to make them viable.

OK..... GO!

TL;DR

I refuse to indulge this. Read the post.
Edited by Sevenernine#1753 on 12/3/2012 9:02 AM PST
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Tl;dr.

You need a conclusion.
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I think you may be overstating the issue a little bit.

We have many ways to play that can clear high mp lvls and survive while doing so, the only issue is that to be efficient we have our options limited. As is the case with other classes, you just as often find a Wiz that isn't CM or archon as you will find a Barb that isn't WW or throw. While I would love more options that compete at a similar level to CM I don't think it's realistic to balance survivability, dps, AND speed with so many build and gear combinations.

To say we're broken is going a bit to far, we may not have alot of diversity, but I don't think we're out of line with the other classes in terms of the number of options we have (regardless of potency).
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I think you may be overstating the issue a little bit.

We have many ways to play that can clear high mp lvls and survive while doing so, the only issue is that to be efficient we have our options limited. As is the case with other classes, you just as often find a Wiz that isn't CM or archon as you will find a Barb that isn't WW or throw. While I would love more options that compete at a similar level to CM I don't think it's realistic to balance survivability, dps, AND speed with so many build and gear combinations.

To say we're broken is going a bit to far, we may not have alot of diversity, but I don't think we're out of line with the other classes in terms of the number of options we have (regardless of potency).


At what gear level though? And yes, I'm obviously oversimplifying... Every time I've typed a complex thread up I get idiot responses, so I figured I'd...not do that. Yeah, you do 300k DPS, so your options are a little more open, but players like you need to acknowledge and understand that YOUR power level is not normal or anywhere close to average. Congratulations though. :)

Tl;dr.

You need a conclusion.


I have a conclusion. You want cliffs-notes.
Edited by Sevenernine#1753 on 12/3/2012 9:26 AM PST
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I think you may be overstating the issue a little bit.

We have many ways to play that can clear high mp lvls and survive while doing so, the only issue is that to be efficient we have our options limited. As is the case with other classes, you just as often find a Wiz that isn't CM or archon as you will find a Barb that isn't WW or throw. While I would love more options that compete at a similar level to CM I don't think it's realistic to balance survivability, dps, AND speed with so many build and gear combinations.

To say we're broken is going a bit to far, we may not have alot of diversity, but I don't think we're out of line with the other classes in terms of the number of options we have (regardless of potency).


tbh i dont agree with this at all, wds have the advantage of having pets that distract elites while they lay down high dps skills (da bears)
demon hunters can gloom/smoke screen while standing in place and laying down dps
we have diamond skin that takes only 22k hp of dmg and thats it

i see no way to make a functional solo mp7 farming build that doesnt center around using cm as a passive b/c of the way cast times are for our dps spells and the nature of our defensive skills

the only way i see to fix this is if diamond skin took more hps of dmg (bad idea), if we had a passive that provided lifesteal (like the barbs)

i honestly like the idea of a lifesteal passive (it should scale with dps tho, ie high ls for 100k-200k, medium for 200-300kdps and low for 300k+dps)
as a lifesteal passive would allow for standing in place since most of the dmg ur takin on from standing in place could hopefully be mitigated by passive life steal + ls on weapon
Edited by SteelPhantom#1820 on 12/3/2012 9:33 AM PST
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I think you may be overstating the issue a little bit.

We have many ways to play that can clear high mp lvls and survive while doing so, the only issue is that to be efficient we have our options limited. As is the case with other classes, you just as often find a Wiz that isn't CM or archon as you will find a Barb that isn't WW or throw. While I would love more options that compete at a similar level to CM I don't think it's realistic to balance survivability, dps, AND speed with so many build and gear combinations.

To say we're broken is going a bit to far, we may not have alot of diversity, but I don't think we're out of line with the other classes in terms of the number of options we have (regardless of potency).


tbh i dont agree with this at all, wds have the advantage of having pets that distract elites while they lay down high dps skills (da bears)
demon hunters can gloom/smoke screen while standing in place and laying down dps
we have diamond skin that takes only 22k hp of dmg and thats it

i see no way to make a functional solo mp7 farming build that doesnt center around using cm as a passive b/c of the way cast times are for our dps spells and the nature of our defensive skills


What kind of build would you like to play? Imagine that you're still in hell, and almost all of the skills are still viable - what build would you love to play?

Now... what adjustments to each skill in that build would you have to make in order to be competitive in our current "end game"?
Edited by Sevenernine#1753 on 12/3/2012 9:31 AM PST
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my fav was meteor then orb and then torrent, the problem for these skills is ap return/standing in place/omfg im gettin stomped by demons now

doing something like this would be a step in the right direction imo
the only way i see to fix this is if diamond skin took more hitpts of dmg (bad idea), or if we had a passive that provided lifesteal (like the barbs)

i honestly like the idea of a lifesteal passive (it should scale with dps tho, ie high ls for 100k-200k, medium for 200-300kdps and low for 300k+dps)
as a lifesteal passive would allow for standing in place since most of the dmg ur takin on from standing in place could hopefully be mitigated by passive life steal + ls on weapon
also havin the native ls scale wouldnt allow ppl to cheap out and just go all glass cannon as they would get owned by RD mobs
Edited by SteelPhantom#1820 on 12/3/2012 9:34 AM PST
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I cleared up to diablo inferno using the piercing orb/hydra/blizzard at 35k dps. I like little to no resistances and ~30k hp.

I died alot(mostly on elites), but I was able to clear it. Kiting builds used to be considered viable, but no longer since higher defensive gear was made available along with the ridiculousness that is reflect damage on high mp.

My whole point is that farming and clearing are distinct and different things. There will always be a fastest farming build, and there will always be builds that can clear albeit not efficiently enough to be called farming.

Saying that wizard is a broken class just because we have builds that clear much faster than others I think is using too strong of language.

TL:DR

Other classes only have 1-2 builds to choose from that can really be considered fast/efficient enough to be called farming builds, just like us. And just like us they have many builds that can clear high mps more slowly at a rate not deemed 'farming.'

Just because one build can do an Alk run much faster than another doesn't mean that the slower one is broken, it just means it's not as fast.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 12/3/2012 9:37 AM PST
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I think it's ok for CM to be a necessary skill. I haven't seen any working DH build without Gloom, and Barb is OP only because WotB is OP, the rest of their abilities are fine. Beside CM, we have a lot of build options to choose from, at least for MP 6-7. For MP 9-10, I think CM/WW as the best build is fine, considering they are the highest levels of gameplay. Other classes are also limited in these MPs too. Well, Barb has a little more room to breathe, but they can't do coop as well as us can, a trade-off to an extent. I'm pretty sure about WDs, DHs, and Monks though.

Defensively, we also have Safe Passage and Mirror Image if you want extra protection. They are working skills, not some skills I just list here for the sake of listing. I actually used them.
Edited by novice#1750 on 12/3/2012 9:39 AM PST
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I cleared up to diablo inferno using the piercing orb/hydra/blizzard at 35k dps. I like little to no resistances and ~30k hp.

I died alot(mostly on elites), but I was able to clear it. Kiting builds used to be considered viable, but no longer since higher defensive gear was made available along with the ridiculousness that is reflect damage on high mp.

My whole point is that farming and clearing are distinct and different things. There will always be a fastest farming build, and there will always be builds that can clear albeit not efficiently enough to be called farming.

Saying that wizard is a broken class just because we have builds that clear much faster than others I think is using too strong of language.

TL:DR

Other classes only have 1-2 builds to choose from that can really be considered fast/efficient enough to be called farming builds, just like us. And just like us they have many builds that can clear high mps more slowly at a rate not deemed 'farming.'

Just because one build can do an Alk run much faster than another doesn't mean that the slower one is broken, it just means it's not as fast.


You don't have to TL;DR me, I respect your opinion enough to read your whole post. :)

And you are correct as far as there being a difference between clearing and farming... and in another type of game where progression was relevant, that would be 100% spot on, but our "end game" is farming.

I also cleared Inferno Diablo pre MP on a different build, but it was very hard, and it took me several tries to kill Diablo.

I don't draw a distinction between "farming" and "clearing", because our end game isn't "clearing", otherwise why progress past normal?
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End game in a ARPG is spamming powerful spells once geared. All class have a mechanism (sometimes several) to do so. CM is our mechanism (and archon). Don't get the hate.
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There are ubers and in the future (hopefully near future) pvp to consider. Different aspects of play place different values on speed/mobility/defense/damage.

Even for ubers, if you forgo being a CM tank there are other nontank options besides archon.
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Also, we're getting away from the relevant conversation here, and too focused on defending CM, which is exactly what I didnt' want to happen.

@BDF, what would it take for the skills you used to clear Diablo to be part of your farming build? That's the conversation I want to have here. There are countless other threads that have gone in the direction this one is going, we dont' need to rehash that. Some of us here are adults, so let's have an adult conversation about how to address the skill balance disparity. I mean, there are skills that NO ONE would ever use seriously. That's a problem. We shouldn't have "novelty" skills vs "functional" skills.

@novice Yes, there are good skills. I didn't say EVERY wizard skill was broken, i've mentioned multiple times that I'm geared as an illusionist - I use Mirror Image more than 99% of people that play this game, I assure you of that. I know it's value. It isn't on my list of abilities that need fixed (although some of the runes are very lackluster, but at least it has a couple that are worthwhile).

I disagree with this notion of it being okay to have "*@@##*!@ off" builds and "farming" builds. There shouldn't be a deviation in sustainability this significant between builds. Grinding is inherently boring - why add to that tedium by restricting our build options? Longevity is not achieved in this manner.
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12/03/2012 09:48 AMPosted by Aimless
End game in a ARPG is spamming powerful spells once geared. All class have a mechanism (sometimes several) to do so. CM is our mechanism (and archon). Don't get the hate.


No hate here. Maybe in the past, but I've tasted the kool-aid... and it was alright. :) I understand a lot more about the complexities of the build now and know that it isn't just facerolling. Again, this isn't about CM being OP, I stated that I don't think it is anymore... it's about everything else being UP.

There are ubers and in the future (hopefully near future) pvp to consider. Different aspects of play place different values on speed/mobility/defense/damage.

Even for ubers, if you forgo being a CM tank there are other nontank options besides archon.


Well, that's why this is such an important conversation for us to start having now, prior to it becoming a PVP game. As I said, i have now spent a little time playing a CM build, and it is pretty slick. The synergies in that build are impressive, and I can appreciate the build (especially from a theory perspective, which I love). But just because we have one good build, does that mean we should abandon all others?
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I think this is a class-wise problem, not restricted to Wiz. The direction of this game leads every class to one ultimate end game build each, in term of efficiency only. Unless I am very wrong, WW Barb, Strafe DH, TR Monk, and Zero Dog WD are the farming builds of choice, the other builds cannot compare in term of killing speed and moving speed. For Wiz, our farming build is Archon, not CM. If you want maximum efficiency, going low MP and use these 5 builds will be your best choices.

For Ubers, otoh, WW barb is less effective, no DH uses Strafe vs Ubers, TR Monk < standard Cyclone Monk, WD is fine, but they are slow farmer to start with, and Wiz use CM/WW for Ubers, so basically we change the entire focus from speed to power and sustainability.

I fail to see how it is broken when you have to change build between the 2 biggest aspects of the game.
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I think this is a class-wise problem, not restricted to Wiz. The direction of this game leads every class to one ultimate end game build each, in term of efficiency only. Unless I am very wrong, WW Barb, Strafe DH, TR Monk, and Zero Dog WD are the farming builds of choice, the other builds cannot compare in term of killing speed and moving speed. For Wiz, our farming build is Archon, not CM. If you want maximum efficiency, going low MP and use these 5 builds will be your best choices.

For Ubers, otoh, WW barb is less effective, no DH uses Strafe vs Ubers, TR Monk < standard Cyclone Monk, WD is fine, but they are slow farmer to start with, and Wiz use CM/WW for Ubers, so basically we change the entire focus from speed to power and sustainability.

I fail to see how it is broken when you have to change build between the 2 biggest aspects of the game.


I can't speak on the state of other classes. I play a Wizard dominantly. I know that if I had invested half as much gear into my Monk as my Wizard, she would be considerably more sustainable.

And this isn't about farming. There are not "Endless" builds that are usable in anything beyond Mp3. There are about 50 skill/runes that NO ONE ever uses. How does that not bother you?

You're content with being pigeon holed... I'm not. That's just a difference of expectations.

And regardless of whether or not Archon is the fastest farming build is irrelevant, because CM is a very close second as far as effectiveness. We're not even talking about speed runs, we're talking about normal gaming. I don't do speed runs... Ever. I enjoy fighting everything. Stop sidetracking the core of this conversation. You don't see a problem. Fine. I do.

We have skills that are useless in the endgame. Period. I can tell you I see a lot more variance out of Monks and WDs than I do out of Wizards. I don't know much about DH's, so I won't speak on their state. And you can say what you want about Barbs, you're never going to convince me they only have 1 or 2 viable specs... I've seen numerous different builds out of barbs... All of them effective. Not QQing about Barbs, just putting it in context.

We have how many passives? ANd you're telling me that no matter what CM is required for all end game play? That's illogical from a design perspective, as well as a player expectation perspective.

I would really appreciate it if you stopped derailing the thread.
Edited by Sevenernine#1753 on 12/3/2012 10:17 AM PST
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I don't think anyone is against more build diversity. All that tickled us the wrong way was the doom and gloom language that was used.

If the topic of this thread is 'What can be done to promote more farming build diversity' I'll gladly talk about that, we just disagree on what constitutes a broken class.
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For me I would usually play this game with a friend who was a barb, and I thought lets make the barb a tank with low dps and high survivability and my wiz will be high damage low survivability. I would run an arcane torrent build and still want to, but if we ran into a pack of elites I would run in circles forever occasionally casting a spell while the barb would stand there hacking away for a measly 15-20k dps. Now I'm running CM/WW and we go much smoother.

To me there needs to be more synergy between classes and playing coop. I want to see the barb have a passive or skill that has lots of aggro so that a wiz can sit back and cast their spells. Then in return maybe wiz's could give elemental bonuses to other classes.

I have been thinking for a while about what could help get more social aspect and running as groups into the game. Blizzard could give every class a 4th passive that has to be chosen from a few that only help party members. They would all be new and it could make group play a lot better instead of just speed archon farming.

e.g.
Barbarian could have 1 that aggro's enemies. 1 that abosrbs damage taken by allies, 1 that increases ally armor (yes they have their shout, but this would be on top and not do anything for the barb).

Wiz, 1 give allies all resist, 1 give them elemental damage to their weapon, 1 that gives all allies ice attacks that slow enemies.

DH 1 that increases ally attack speed, increase move speed above 25 % (maybe give to DH as well if 2 or more people in party), increase dodge

WD, give allies attacks poison that all do dot, chance for attacks and/or kills to cause an explosion, something else

monk, give all allies life regen (and not a pathetic 300 like our armor passive), chance for allies to summon an angel, fully heal an ally below xx % hp once every min.

These are just random idea's I came up with but something along these lines I think could make a lot more skills viable.

Think of a party with a barb that aggro's all the enemies, then you can channel all your skills like arcane torrent and disintegrate and they are good then, add in a monk with life regen and then reflect becomes easier, and you'll have to and want to find people to consistently play with then.

tl:dr, Give a 4th "party passive" to promote team play and allow barbs to tank enemy aggro so we can channel arcane torrent/disentegrate
Edited by DaMann#1290 on 12/3/2012 10:35 AM PST
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I don't think anyone is against more build diversity. All that tickled us the wrong way was the doom and gloom language that was used.

If the topic of this thread is 'What can be done to promote more farming build diversity' I'll gladly talk about that, we just disagree on what constitutes a broken class.


I thought my language was very appropriate. I wasn't intending to come off as "doom and gloom," but rather realistic. It is what it is. A lot of our skills are completely worthless (Ever try to use Paralysis? Watch how often it procs, even using Living Lightning...) relative to the 3 or 4 we have that are worth a damn. DOes that makes us broken? Meh, it's subjective, and depends on your gear level - a lot of our class inadequacies can be compensated for once you get to a high enough gear level.

As I said, it isn't about farming efficiency... Because farming is the end game. It took me less than a month to clear all the way through A4 Hell, only playing intermittantly at launch. Should that be the ony period of time where I would even consider using certain skills? Also you need to step outside of your subjective perspective, as not everyone does 300k DPS. The MAJORITY of players I encounter in game are between 50-150k DPS. And that's awesome for you, I just want you to understand that your Diablo experience is different than the median experience.

But, back to the point, that is absolutely the topic of this thread, that's why I gave examples of skills that I think could be awesome if they weren't so horribly underpowered.

I also asked you specifically what it would take for the abilities you used to clear Diablo to come back into your normal gameplay rotation. So I reiterate that question... What build did you use to kill diablo, and what would have to happen to those skills for that build to be viable to play? "Play" being defined as however you spend your time in the Diablo universe. Whether that's grinding keys, fighting ubers, or MFing is up to you.

Edit: You already told me what skills... :) How could they be better? Sorry, every time I reply there's a new post that I missed.
Edited by Sevenernine#1753 on 12/3/2012 10:50 AM PST
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For me I would usually play this game with a friend who was a barb, and I thought lets make the barb a tank with low dps and high survivability and my wiz will be high damage low survivability. I would run an arcane torrent build and still want to, but if we ran into a pack of elites I would run in circles forever occasionally casting a spell while the barb would stand there hacking away for a measly 15-20k dps. Now I'm running CM/WW and we go much smoother.

To me there needs to be more synergy between classes and playing coop. I want to see the barb have a passive or skill that has lots of aggro so that a wiz can sit back and cast their spells. Then in return maybe wiz's could give elemental bonuses to other classes.

I have been thinking for a while about what could help get more social aspect and running as groups into the game. Blizzard could give every class a 4th passive that has to be chosen from a few that only help party members. They would all be new and it could make group play a lot better instead of just speed archon farming.

e.g.
Barbarian could have 1 that aggro's enemies. 1 that abosrbs damage taken by allies, 1 that increases ally armor (yes they have their shout, but this would be on top and not do anything for the barb).

Wiz, 1 give allies all resist, 1 give them elemental damage to their weapon, 1 that gives all allies ice attacks that slow enemies.

DH 1 that increases ally attack speed, increase move speed above 25 % (maybe give to DH as well if 2 or more people in party), increase dodge

WD, give allies attacks poison that all do dot, chance for attacks and/or kills to cause an explosion, something else

monk, give all allies life regen (and not a pathetic 300 like our armor passive), chance for allies to summon an angel, fully heal an ally below xx % hp once every min.

These are just random idea's I came up with but something along these lines I think could make a lot more skills viable.

Think of a party with a barb that aggro's all the enemies, then you can channel all your skills like arcane torrent and disintegrate and they are good then, add in a monk with life regen and then reflect becomes easier, and you'll have to and want to find people to consistently play with then.

tl:dr, Give a 4th "party passive" to promote team play and allow barbs to tank enemy aggro so we can channel arcane torrent/disentegrate


Good post. I agree that the synergy between players is very lackluster in our current state. Honestly in most cases it's more efficient to play alone, which is sad.

I would love to see some mechanics incorporated that encourage team play, instead of solo play.

So what current skills could you revamp to make them viable?
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