Diablo® III

Dualwield dead? Bring your ideas. Blizzard?

They should make dual wielding like the ruthless passive for barbs, bonus crit and 10% IAS boost.
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The longer i think about it:

First step:
They should just remove any benefit from dual wielding

Second step:
allow quiver along with dual wield

Explanation:
Barbs have to decide between dual wield, or 1h + shield or two 1h weapons
They cannot have skorn + stormshield

It is very class specific for demonhunters to use a quiver, and all the itemization is balanced around it. Especially concerning hitpoints. Then we have a weapon like manticore, which can roll 2 socks already = 2 maximum socks from dual wield.

It does in no way make sense, not to being able to use a quiver, but getting only 15% ias.
And is in no other way possible to bring in balance, than allowing every Demonhunter using a quiver.
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I think allowing DW+quiver would make us too OP, since the other classes can't even use 2hand+offhand. However, DML gives more benefits for DH than DW coz you can easily get 18% ias with DML, plus ChC, hatred/disc, and vit.

To make DW desirable, the advantage of DW should be at par if not more than what DML currently has to offer, i.e. 20-25% ias + 5-7% ChC, which can simply be added to the archery passive (much like one of the other classes' passive that gives bonus to dual wielding).

Another interesting bonus to DW would be disc regen of 0.5 to 0.75/sec (I considered a decimal amount coz I'm not sure how legacy nats users would react if I put a whole value, like 1).

Taking away the DPS contribution of the off-handed 1-hand crossbow and only considering it like an offhand is also okay. As I understand, it's getting the average DPS for DW which actually brings our DPS down by a significant amount if your DW offhand is not at par with your main-hand. This would mean I have a very insanely-expensive offhand right now, but if it would make other 1-hand bows more viable I'm okay with it.
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I think allowing DW+quiver would make us too OP, since the other classes can't even use 2hand+offhand. However, DML gives more benefits for DH than DW coz you can easily get 18% ias with DML, plus ChC, hatred/disc, and vit.

To make DW desirable, the advantage of DW should be at par if not more than what DML currently has to offer, i.e. 20-25% ias + 5-7% ChC, which can simply be added to the archery passive (much like one of the other classes' passive that gives bonus to


Just do the maths and look at diabloprogress.

It is exactly the 50 - 60 k dps and 300 hitpoints, which you simply loose when u use dual 1h compared to a top equipped manticore user. best available items vs best available items.

It is just plain stupid to give a 15% ias bonus for dual wield, when a quiver gives 20% ias AND 10% crit AND 300 dex + 300 hp AND 1x% to hungering arrow.

Especially when the 2 Hand xbow offers 1390 dps + 300 dex + 100% critdam + 2 (!!) soxx
Especially when our whole armor set is balanced around using a quiver and offers much less stat than ik set for example.
Edited by Jadawin#2705 on 11/29/2012 2:22 PM PST
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I made a post on r/Diablo about some of the problems with dual wielding. My suggestion is create a new passive that gives a 10% damage boost and 1 discipline per second when dual wielding and 10% attack speed and plus 50 hatred when using a quiver. Sure this will make the legacy Nats even more OP but why balance around a set that no longer drops. Also the Archery passive needs to be reworked to give 10% crit chance and .1 more attacks per second when dual wielding. This I feel will help even out the current gap.
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Seriously, a nice calamity costs just as much as Manticore, really would love to try DW without the huge sacrifice in all around survivability.
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Love to see how much effort some of you guys put into this - keep your ideas coming.

Thanks for all the support, since there are some awesome theories and ideas how to balance this "problem".
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I’ve been dual wielding hand crossbows since May, and absolutely love it. I used to use Nat’s Slayer for the longest time, last time I checked Diablo Progress I had the 4th best Nat’s Slayer in the world, but have since upgraded to Danetta’s set because of the low DPS, 846, on the Slayer. With that said, I completely agree with sentiments expressed in this thread about the dismal state of DW, and am pleased to see all the excellent suggestions provided by other DHs. I hope the CMs can forward some of them to the developers.

@Korba

While reading this thread, I was thinking that a great solution would be to modify the archery passive to grant an additional 10% IAS when dual wielding, then I read your post. :D

I still think that the best means of improving dual wield is through the passive skills, specifically Archery. For example, when using 1 handed crossbows gain: +10% critical hit chance, and +10% IAS when dual wielding.

I do not want to see, however, some bogus new passive that grants 5% critical hit chance when dual wielding or some such nonsense. This wouldn’t solve anything, and only cause us dual wielders more frustration when choosing passives.

The suggestions about discipline regeneration bonuses from dual wielding are innovative, but wouldn’t really address the issue IMHO.

Something that hasn’t been suggested yet that could go a long ways towards addressing some of the maladies associated with dual wielding is allowing players to add sockets* to items. This would instantly make both the Slayer and Revenge more attractive as players could find/buy unsocketed versions with innate CD and then socket them. Disclaimer: I have CD Slayer and Revenge tucked away in my stash in the event we can add sockets to items, so I have a vested interest in this one ;-).

I don’t think the DPS on any of the hand crossbows, Slayer included, needs to be buffed. The developers just need to give us a little more passive support, that’s all. I would like to reiterate that this problem was caused by the existence of the DML.

*The socket would be an additional affix (i.e., it would not replace any of the existing affixes). Socketing items should be done by Shen with a cost of around 5 million gold, and yes, to some of us 5 mil is still a lot. Additionally, when the item is socketed it should be bound to account, to act as an item sink and so the overall economy isn’t too greatly effected by this new feature.
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I’ve been dual wielding hand crossbows since May, and absolutely love it. I used to use Nat’s Slayer for the longest time, last time I checked Diablo Progress I had the 4th best Nat’s Slayer in the world, but have since upgraded to Danetta’s set because of the low DPS, 846, on the Slayer. With that said, I completely agree with sentiments expressed in this thread about the dismal state of DW, and am pleased to see all the excellent suggestions provided by other DHs. I hope the CMs can forward some of them to the developers.

@Korba

While reading this thread, I was thinking that a great solution would be to modify the archery passive to grant an additional 10% IAS when dual wielding, then I read your post. :D

I still think that the best means of improving dual wield is through the passive skills, specifically Archery. For example, when using 1 handed crossbows gain: +10% critical hit chance, and +10% IAS when dual wielding.

I do not want to see, however, some bogus new passive that grants 5% critical hit chance when dual wielding or some such nonsense. This wouldn’t solve anything, and only cause us dual wielders more frustration when choosing passives.

The suggestions about discipline regeneration bonuses from dual wielding are innovative, but wouldn’t really address the issue IMHO.

Something that hasn’t been suggested yet that could go a long ways towards addressing some of the maladies associated with dual wielding is allowing players to add sockets* to items. This would instantly make both the Slayer and Revenge more attractive as players could find/buy unsocketed versions with innate CD and then socket them. Disclaimer: I have CD Slayer and Revenge tucked away in my stash in the event we can add sockets to items, so I have a vested interest in this one ;-).

I don’t think the DPS on any of the hand crossbows, Slayer included, needs to be buffed. The developers just need to give us a little more passive support, that’s all. I would like to reiterate that this problem was caused by the existence of the DML.

*The socket would be an additional affix (i.e., it would not replace any of the existing affixes). Socketing items should be done by Shen with a cost of around 5 million gold, and yes, to some of us 5 mil is still a lot. Additionally, when the item is socketed it should be bound to account, to act as an item sink and so the overall economy isn’t too greatly effected by this new feature.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments you expressed. The DML + Manticore created a huge imbalance, I don't think any other item can give as much damage and EHP besides weapons in the game. It created a situation where dual wielding cannot even be close to optimal, that's why several people use the DML + Calamity combo now. Dual wielding needs to give a damage boost and some interesting utility that cannot be obtained from any other source. Either a new passive (Maybe something like 10% damage, disc regen and hatred regen) or a fix to archery. 2 handed xbows would still give the most raw damage but a situation would have been created where people actually think twice on which route to go in terms of gearing.
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Please explain to me: What has dual wielding to do with disc regeneration ?

There is a serious imbalance concerning damage and hitpoints. Plain and simple.

In my book dual wielding should do higher dps than manticore + dml, just because you sacrifice so much survivability. That should be the trade off, and not vice versa.

Please no stupid utility, because that is not the point of dual wielding. The point is stacking huge ammounts of crit damage... plain and simple.
Edited by Jadawin#2705 on 12/2/2012 2:56 AM PST
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Used to DW Calamity with Dawn but DML do a better even with a good Dawn the dps difference between both weapon make the dps drop, not much but DML gives way more HP -_-
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We can all agree there are an awful lot of variations that affect dps.

For me, Dual Wielding -- for some reason -- did not outperform my Calamity+DML or Manticore+DML until i got to the 220 dps range. Now, because of the extra crit dmg on the Danetta, Dual wielding it with the Calamity outperforms any other combo by 10-15k dps.

Note: all my bows are in the 1000-1100ish range. (even my Dawn and Windforce) so I think it's a fair comparison.
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@Jadawin

I agree, while the suggestions on increased resource regeneration are innovative, they simply do not address the core issue, damage output.
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@Jadawin

I agree, while the suggestions on increased resource regeneration are innovative, they simply do not address the core issue, damage output.


The only way to address this is to release more handbow sets that have a set bonus. Any other way to balance against dml will cause more problems, imo.
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11/21/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Slaughtermom
With the "new" DML (great roll vs great roll Nettas) we gain ~ 10k HP losing 100 DPS and style..


Sometimes I dw in mp0-2 simply for the style. I have a poor rolled danetta's spite and a very nice rolled natalya's (that is bad anyway...) that cut my dps and my hp a lot. So what? It looks cool :p
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Please explain to me: What has dual wielding to do with disc regeneration ?

There is a serious imbalance concerning damage and hitpoints. Plain and simple.

In my book dual wielding should do higher dps than manticore + dml, just because you sacrifice so much survivability. That should be the trade off, and not vice versa.

Please no stupid utility, because that is not the point of dual wielding. The point is stacking huge ammounts of crit damage... plain and simple.

Blizzards design clearly does not intend for dual wielding to surpass the raw damage potential of using two handed weapons. This can be seen when comparing the Skorn and the Manticore to their DW counterparts (just go on diabloprogress how many of the top dps barbs and DH's aren't using those weapons). The main problem, I think is that the DML provides way too many beneficial stats that people that wish to dual wield give up on too many potential stats. Since we can't dual wield and use a quiver, a Blizzard doesn't intend for dual wielding to match the pure damage output of using two handed weapons, a damage boost and extra utility would make dual wielding more competitive. Would I like to do as much damage as Manticore and DML combo? Yeah I would, but I don't see it happening.
Edited by BurningJC007#1355 on 12/2/2012 12:08 PM PST
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12/02/2012 02:55 AMPosted by Jadawin
because that is not the point of dual wielding. The point is stacking huge ammounts of crit damage... plain and simple.
speed superiority will not be top DPS.

(edit) ^ what burning said

the only thing DW offers at this point is 6% leech utility, not DPS. however 6% utility alone is not enough

if there was movement perks, CC reductions, cost reduction, extra snares and some more regen capacity to balance the fast spending rates that disfavor strafe... then we'd be talking

the hard part is trying to shove any of that into the itemization, since it was itemization that created the problem.
Or does the DH skill system need to be the band-aid
Edited by zoid#1554 on 12/2/2012 11:20 AM PST
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Manticore + DML is just too good when compared to DW. I think that one possible solution would be to add modifiers to some hand crossbows that ONLY activate if you're dual wielding. Something like "+10% attack speed if dual wielding" or "+100 dexterity if dual wielding"... of course the wording would need to be tweaked. And I don't mean set bonuses, just extra modifiers that only take effect show up if dual wielding. I'd say let them even show up on rare hand crossbows, not just legendary or set items.

This would make the choice between Manticore+DML or DW more balanced, IMO.

Another solution, as others have said, is to add something to the Archery passive specifically for dual wielding. But this would pretty much force all dual wielders to take Archery... which may not be a big deal because almost everyone takes it anyway.
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My suggestion would be to change the passive skill archery, it should give an additional bonus when dualwielding.

Something like:

Archery gives +10 % crit chance when using one handcrossbow, when dual wielding you get additional 5% crit chance.

Or:
10% crit + 5% damage
10% crit + 5% attack speed
10% crit + Disc/Hate/Life regen
10% crit + 30% crit damage
10% crit + 5% stun chance
10% crit + 1% Lifeleech

There are many different possiblities...
Edited by HansKrankl#2954 on 12/3/2012 4:15 AM PST
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Keep em coming! We need way more posts and supporters if we want to achieve anything ;)
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