Diablo® III

Hall of Godly Demon Hunters Thread

My Mediocore score:

Hall Score: 20,869.99

DPS Score: 174.80
EHP Score: 55.65
Sustain Score: 1.21
Move Score: 1.24
Paragon Score: 1.39
Misc Score: 1.02
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@skp

LS is incredibly valuable when your dps is 232k before any buffs or passives. It's like having almost perma-gloom without using up a skill slot.

@origin

You're only allowed to be in 1 wing at a time. Otherwise Revrac can be on top of all the lists by simply switching weapons. :)

@photon

Mind linking the DP profile page? I can do the calc in my spreadsheet.
Edited by Celanian#1548 on 12/11/2012 8:52 PM PST
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@skp

LS is incredibly valuable when your dps is 232k before any buffs or passives. It's like having almost perma-gloom without using up a skill slot.


Am I alone here to think that LS isn't highly valuable? I know you're coming from a barb players perspective where it is. I for one go out of my way to avoid all incoming damage possible using stutter-step kiting/vaulting/etc. Gloom/LS really comes into play during reflect packs or vaulting into a blind room and face checking everything in there. Part of the fun of playing DH is avoiding damage and with high enough dex (which i think should factor in hall score) dodging the !@#$ out of everything, while dishing out massive dps. The day i say "i face tank everything" will be when I play barb full time.
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Saying that 2-3% life steal on a weapon is almost like having perma-gloom up is laughable at best. + this only really benefits people who use a manticore to keep up good DPS while having life steal as well. Calamity with a socket and life steal is an impossibility. Most any other rare bow/xbows are gonna be a serious DPS drop if you opt a life steal one. Only really benefits high DPS manticores which can have life steal without sacrificing as much DPS.

Getting life steal and giving up a ton of DPS is asinine when we have a skill like Gloom that most people can spam nearly full-time either with nat's legacy or high crit chance combined with Nightstalker.
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The LS coefficient is already reduced from a barb's.

For 232K dps, 2.8 LS returns about 1300 life per hit in inferno. In practice with passives and various skills that increase damage above base damage, you're probably looking at close to 3K life per hit returned. How valuable would 3K regen or 2K LOH be? I know that even my 477 regen is very useful personally. Also consider that you're probably hitting multiple mobs at once returning even more life back.
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1h
Hall Score: 29,630.62

DPS Score: 222.60
EHP Score: 63.80
Sustain Score: 1.09
Move Score: 1.24
Paragon Score: 1.48
Misc Score: 1.05
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Most DH completely discount LS. I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of it on these forums (based on previous posts).

I'd be willing to give up probably 5% damage for good life steal, and I bet that's more than most DH would be willing to give up.

Lifesteal is good, but you also have to know it's limitations.

In my mind, once you are decently geared generally speaking there are 3 sorts of difficulties to play.

There is easy mode, which is basically when stuff is trivial and you mow it down with little to no difficulty.

There is medium mode, which is basically farming at a level that is slower but generally still farm mode, but you play this mode occasionally either for fun or for potential better loot drops (usually keys).

There is hard mode, which requires one to pay attention and actually use strategy to not die, and is usually not efficient to play (except for either organ drops or for a real challenge).

What MP level each will fall into depends on the gear of the DH, and it's possible at really high gearing there is no hard mode even at MP10 (you'll have to ask them whether that's the case, since I'm not there yet).

Let's look at how LS fits into all of this.

In easy mode, you take little damage, and health globes are plentiful. In this mode LS isn't that useful because you never were in danger of dying anyway.

In hard mode, you have a mechanism to perma-gloom (usually either through nightstalker or legacy nat's). In this scenario, the LS of shadow power is important, but even more important is the damage reduction to prevent spikes from killing you. I say this to mean, regardless of the amount of LS you have, you still need to run gloom because LS provides no damage reduction. So in this respect, you can't sub out gloom regardless of LS.

So given that you're running gloom, you auto pick up 5x the amount of LS that a weapon can provide. So in this scenario, taking your example of 3k life per hit, you're not looking at the difference between running 0k life per hit and 3k life per hit, you're looking at the difference between 15k life per hit and 18k life per hit... when you look at LS in that light, LS can still be useful, but is much less so.

Where LS shines is in the medium mode. In this scenario, you are taking non-insignificant damage, and health globes drops less often. In this mode, LS is great because it can prevent you from needing to hit gloom to heal, which saves you 14 discipline which can then be used for vault to make your run more efficient. In can also expand the range of medium. For some DH, MP4 might be medium without LS, but easy mode with LS. Or MP7 might be hard mode without LS but be medium mode with LS.

But the other way to get MP4 to become easy mode is to simply add more DPS (and/or eHP depending on gear). And the other way to get MP7 to be medium mode is to add more eHP (and/or DPS depending on gear). So the question becomes, what is the approximate ratio of the usefulness of LS versus DPS and/or eHP.

I looked at the top 10 DH in the hall. Of then, NONE of them is using LS. I initially was unsure whether the 22k DPS (about 10% DPS) boost would be better than the 2.8% LS, but after using both of them I'm sticking with the DPS and haven't looked back. (And according to your formula, my new set up scores 10% lower, despite my preference for it.)

It's your hall and you can use whatever formula you want. But I think if you stick with LS at this coefficient, I feel you are not giving a true representation of what the hall should be.
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I also just did the calculation. If I add 2.8% lifesteal to my current config, I would have 45333. To get approximately that same number using eHP, I would have to raise my eHP by 340k (about a 38% boost) to a total of 1.23 million eHP.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 10:15 AM PST
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Ya, the emphasis on LS is huge in this calculation while the emphasis is minor on eHP. I went from 800k to 900k ehp and it raised my score by about 500 lol.'

BTW new score:

Hall Score: 36,044.29

DPS Score: 262.56
EHP Score: 70.40
Sustain Score: 1.09
Move Score: 1.24
Paragon Score: 1.38
Misc Score: 1.05

1her.
Edited by Nick#11944 on 12/12/2012 11:24 AM PST
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@skp

From my POV, I would probably consider MP 1-2 as 'easy mode', MP 4-5 as 'medium mode', and higher than that as 'hard mode' based on my current gear.

I think LS still has tremendous value even with 'easy mode'. The only way I die on MP 1-2 is vs reflect damage mobs where I shoot before realizing that they're RD. If I had LS on my xbow, I could drop Gloom completely from my build when running MP1-2 since RD wouldn't be a danger. I could then continuously vault and speed up the run even faster.

That being said, I am open to lowering the LS coefficient to .1 if there is enough demand.

@Nick

It's kinda funny. Apotheosis thinks there is too much weight put on EHP and you think there is too little. :)
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If I had LS on my xbow, I could drop Gloom completely from my build when running MP1-2 since RD wouldn't be a danger. I could then continuously vault and speed up the run even faster.


Well, I had a 2.8 LS xbow with 210k dps, and running MP1-2 I still used gloom. Against reflect without it, I would need to kite/move, and I found it to be more efficient to use gloom and not kite, rather than not use gloom. This was even with 4400 armor and 540 all resists. My situation might have been better if I had some pickup radius, but that's kind of irrelevant since pickup radius isn't worth anything in your formula anyway.

I also found it was more efficient to use gloom and ignore fire / arcane beams (though still not at the node) / exploding balls of fire from molten and keep firing, rather than spend timing moving out of the way and not doing damage, but I will concede that is possibly a limitation of the build I used (Hungering/Spray and Elemental/Ball Lightning).
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I've never had LS on my DH, but my Wiz uses it when she borrows my Barb's sword. At lower MP levels, the LS is 100% effective vs RD mobs whereas she gets insta-gibbed when using her wand. I do use Archon which means her defenses are higher than normal, but I don't think the dynamic would change too much with DH.
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12/12/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Celanian
I do use Archon which means her defenses are higher than normal, but I don't think the dynamic would change too much with DH.


a huge part of our mitigation is through dodge since we have high dex, but RD is one of the things that ignores dodge, so you have to completely leave that component of our mitigation out. wizards generally have higher AR (with high int) and armor through their buffs, and like you said, you were in archon, so you were probably running close to 1k AR, 5-6k armor, while doing 400k DPS, and probably using blood magic for even more LS. this of course is enough.

however i dont believe i have ever seen a DH running with that kind of mitigation and DPS with a LS weapon. in addition, we do not have the effectively passive blood magic to gain an additional, constant, 1.5% LS. So to say that the dynamic would not change too much with DH is quite inaccurate.
Edited by Jd007#1506 on 12/12/2012 3:11 PM PST
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It's easy to determine just using the math:

100k hit. Reflect damage is 10% so that's 10k damage.

3% lifesteal, nerfed by 80% in inferno is .6%, which is 600 health healed.

To completely negate the effects of RD without gloom, you need to mitigate 94% of the damage.... with my current gearing according to d3up I'm mitigating 82.58% and I consider myself to have pretty good defenses for a DH.

Of course you don't need to completely negate it because you can pick up health globes and/or have a bunch of LoH. If I had enough LoH to gain 1100 life in addition to my 82.58% mitigation and my 3% lifesteal, then I could ignore it completely. Because of the coefficients, though, the actual paper LoH needed is much higher (the actual number will depend on which ability you are using but for example the coefficient for cluster arrow is 25% so you'd need 4400 LoH on paper. Edit: ball lightning is also 25%)*.

Since I don't have any LoH, I would need to rely on enough health globes dropping and having enough pickup radius to get them without having to move. Again, you don't give any credit for pickup radius, so this line of thought isn't relevant viz-a-viz the formula. At the high levels, getting pickup radius is definitely non-trivial by the way.

Or instead of that, you could simply use gloom, which is what 99+% of DHs do instead, and also have the added advantage that at low MP you can ignore fire / molten / fire chains / arcane sentry etc.

* both numbers based on d3up's site. I didn't independently verify the coefficients, but I figure the chances d3up is wrong is small.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 3:30 PM PST
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Just checked. Wiz has about 900 AR and 5200 armor in archon form with energy armor. So yeah, the mitigation is higher than DH. The dps is actually about 900K since Improved Archon does 375% weapon damage. That's why she gets insta-gibbed without a LS weapon when hitting an entire pack at once.

Can a DH with LS run a test? Maybe at MP 1 just isolate a RD pack and blast away without gloom and see if the pack dies before the DH does. If the pack dies first, maybe see what percentage of DH life is remaining. I'd be interested in the results of the test.

Edit: Pickup radius isn't summarized by DP so can't be used. I love PUR and all my characters have it, so I know that it's very useful. I pay a premium so that all 3 vile wards accross my characters has it.
Edited by Celanian#1548 on 12/12/2012 3:37 PM PST
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Just checked. Wiz has about 900 AR and 5200 armor in archon form with energy armor. So yeah, the mitigation is higher than DH. The dps is actually about 900K since Improved Archon does 375% weapon damage. That's why she gets insta-gibbed without a LS weapon when hitting an entire pack at once.

Can a DH with LS run a test? Maybe at MP 1 just isolate a RD pack and blast away without gloom and see if the pack dies before the DH does. If the pack dies first, maybe see what percentage of DH life is remaining. I'd be interested in the results of the test.


As a note, MP doesn't really matter if the mob doesn't hit you, as RD doesn't change based on MP and LS is entirely percentage based and (afaik) mob resists don't change based on MP (only their overall health and damage output).

I can tell you that based on the first few seconds of a fight, where you are firing at an elite pack and it hasn't done any damage to you yet, that while using Ball Lightning it would take a few seconds (perhaps 5 or 6 seconds) with 2.8% LS , you would still die, if the elite pack wasn't dead first.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 3:40 PM PST
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12/12/2012 03:39 PMPosted by skp
I can tell you that based on the first few seconds of a fight, where you are firing at an elite pack and it hasn't done any damage to you yet, that while using Ball Lightning it would take a few seconds (perhaps 5 or 6 seconds) with 2.8% LS , you would still die, if the elite pack wasn't dead first.


You can probably get around this by making sure your BL hits an elite plus a trash mob at the same time. That should give you enough life to survive the RD. There is usually plenty of trash near any elite.
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I can tell you that based on the first few seconds of a fight, where you are firing at an elite pack and it hasn't done any damage to you yet, that while using Ball Lightning it would take a few seconds (perhaps 5 or 6 seconds) with 2.8% LS , you would still die, if the elite pack wasn't dead first.


You can probably get around this by making sure your BL hits an elite plus a trash mob at the same time. That should give you enough life to survive the RD. There is usually plenty of trash near any elite.


You can, and I even mentioned it here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7200032149#4

Still, it often occurs that you can't keep dragging elites through trash for whatever reason (elite comes in late after whites are dead, it's in an isolated room, etc) without losing a lot of efficiency. You also never have replied to the added efficiency of being able ignore environmental factors, which is quite a big deal (if your kill time for an elite is 10 seconds, and you have to instead spend an extra 3 seconds moving around to avoid fire / beams / etc, that's a huge percentage of time lost).

But honestly, in much the same way that you replied to nom, I am replying to you: play with LS and come back with some concrete observances rather than using hypotheticals and then we can talk. I've played with LS / LOH for probably 30-40% of my DH's lifespan and probably about 80% since MP came out. I'm a huge fan of LS. But even I'm not crazy enough to think that LS is a worthwhile tradeoff versus 20% DPS gain, especially when 20% of your DPS represents 44k or so in raw DPS. (It will likely take me close to 1 billion gold (net -- ie including subtracting out the cost of the gear I replace), if not more, to get 44k more DPS without losing eHP at this point).
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 4:07 PM PST
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I also feel this formula favors manticore users a lot more than users of any other type of weapon. If I were to equip a manticore of similar value to my calamity, I'd go up a few k in score.
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If I use my wiz without archon, blood magic, or energy armor, would that be considered a fair test?
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