Diablo® III

Hall of Godly Demon Hunters Thread

12/12/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Celanian
If I use my wiz without archon, blood magic, or energy armor, would that be considered a fair test?


Not even close. Unless you can give your wizard vault, ball lightning, hungering arrow, etc (or whatever build you want), 40+% dodge, and the armor / resists of a DH.
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if i use new nats/mempo i'll be at the top.
QQ

and whats with LS getting such a high weightage?
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12/12/2012 04:41 PMPosted by skp
If I use my wiz without archon, blood magic, or energy armor, would that be considered a fair test?


Not even close. Unless you can give your wizard vault, ball lightning, hungering arrow, etc (or whatever build you want), 40+% dodge, and the armor / resists of a DH.


Shouldn't only the armor/resists matter? The test is only for LS, not overall farming efficiency.
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12/12/2012 04:45 PMPosted by Celanian


Not even close. Unless you can give your wizard vault, ball lightning, hungering arrow, etc (or whatever build you want), 40+% dodge, and the armor / resists of a DH.


Shouldn't only the armor/resists matter? The test is only for LS, not overall farming efficiency.


What exactly are you trying to test?
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12/12/2012 04:47 PMPosted by skp
What exactly are you trying to test?


12/12/2012 04:06 PMPosted by skp
But honestly, in much the same way that you replied to nom, I am replying to you: play with LS and come back with some concrete observances rather than using hypotheticals and then we can talk.


I'm trying to test LS only. I don't have a decent LS bow/xbow.
Edited by Celanian#1548 on 12/12/2012 4:50 PM PST
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I took a look at your xbow. And then I ran the DPS you would need for your xbow to have the same overall score as your current score. It works out to something like an:

1167 dps
3% lifesteal
85% crit damage
open socket

manticore would score approximately the same as your current xbow.

I then looked in the AH and didn't quite find an exact match.

I did find two that were an ok match:

First is:

1166.6 DPS
191 Int
76% crit damage
3% Lifesteal
Open Socket

the second one is

1111.1 DPS
+34 min dmg
184 Dex
3% Lifesteal
81% crit damage
open socket

Both of them offer a little more than 20k dps less than your current xbow but have LS instead. If you equipped either of them, you would have a similar score to your current score. They would be a little lower, but not tremendously (around 6850 instead of 6950 according to your current diabloprogress profile).

The first one is listed at 4m bid / 8m buyout, with 1d7h left

The second one is listed at 7.9m bid / 8.9m buyout, with 1d4 left

Do you think those xbows are comparable to yours in overall effectiveness? According to your formula, your xbow and these two should be similar.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 5:13 PM PST
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12/12/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Celanian
If I use my wiz without archon, blood magic, or energy armor, would that be considered a fair test?


you can use archon (in fact you should, because DHs can output massive amounts of damage that a wizard's normal skills usually cannot simulate) and energy armor, as long as the resulting AR and armor is on par with what a top DH can get without sacrificing DPS too much (so around 600 AR, 4k armor).
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What exactly are you trying to test?


But honestly, in much the same way that you replied to nom, I am replying to you: play with LS and come back with some concrete observances rather than using hypotheticals and then we can talk.


I'm trying to test LS only. I don't have a decent LS bow/xbow.


What I meant is, you need to play a DH with LS to properly judge how useful it is. Can you judge how good a car is by driving it on a 0-60 test? Sure you can test acceleration that way, but without evaluating the acceleration in relationship to the handling and overall feel of the car you don't really know how to judge that acceleration.

In a similar vein, if LS is LS is LS, then you should just leave the coefficient at the same value as it is for barbarians.

Edit:

what I mean is some of the stuff you are saying like

"if you have LS you can play without gloom"

or

"if you have LS then just find some white mobs to kill along with your RD elites"

you really need to play a DH with LS to see how viable those statements are.

2nd edit: assuming you are vaulting, the dynamics of DH and wizard (at least from what I've played of my level 60 wizard, which granted isn't a ton) imo are pretty different.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 5:22 PM PST
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I can use teleport with my wiz to simulate vault.

10% dps seems pretty reasonable to sacrifice for 3%LS. When I shopped for my barb's sword, one of the factors I HAD to have was LS because I always intended to use it for my wiz as well. Plus having LS on weapon allowed me to not use a passive on bloodthirst or allows me to change to a Witching Hour if necessary. I could've easily have purchased a sword with natural crit damage instead of LS for the same price which would've added lots of damage to me but wasn't worth it.

My wiz's dps is 194K using the LS sword. I'm better off at that dps than 214K without LS IMO.
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Here is a question for all. How much dps do you think 3% LS should be worth? There are various ways of reducing the impact of LS, but they would probably also have to reduce LOH and regen as well. I just want a ballpark figure of what the majority of DH feel that LS is worth.
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The wizard doesn't have an option to gain indefinite 15% LS and 35% damage reduction though gear (either legacy nat's or crit gear).

You've said that LS is a big deal because it allows you to run without gloom. I agree that LS, in the absence of gloom, is a big deal.

However, I also pointed out that you can't mitigate away all the damage from RD on a DH with standard gear, and that LS doesn't provide damage mitigation which is why gloom is important at the higher MPs, and that LS on top of the 15% LS from gloom isn't as useful as if you didn't have gloom, and that gloom allows you to ignore environmental effects that you would otherwise have to stop dps'ing to avoid. None of these you've really addressed except you said that you can find other white mobs to kill to not die to RD, which I said is fine when you can find those mobs, but because of the nature of vault and mob positioning that doesn't always happen.

Shadow Power is good enough that 497 out of the top 500 DH by heroscore on diabloprogress use it (source: http://www.diabloprogress.com/top_skills/stat_heroscore_500 scroll down to DH) and of those 479 of them use gloom.

Out of the top 50, 49 use shadow Power, and all but one of those use Gloom.

Once you factor in gloom, the usefulness of LS is greatly diminished. And that is something you cannot simulate with any other class. And that is why DH in general care a lot less about LS than other classes. I personally believe in LS a lot more than most DH, but I am not such a fanboi of it that I believe that it's a pancea.

Edit: eww double negative. my apologies if you saw that before I edited for clarity.
Edited by skp#1805 on 12/12/2012 5:56 PM PST
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@skp

What do you think 3% LS should be worth in terms of dps?
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hmm score update? =/

Hall Score: 33,525.05

DPS Score: 156.46
EHP Score: 53.74
Sustain Score: 1.76
Move Score: 1.12
Paragon Score: 1.41
Misc Score: 1.44

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/quos-6707/Strike/1018785

probably will drop alot lower if skp petition got thru lol. XD since my score seem to be jack up by sustain.

Just my 2cent, with my sustain score, (2.8 LS , 800 loh at 2.08 APS) and 500AR 4.5k armor, I can survive reflect mob without glooming in all mp as long i am not using cluster bomb and spike trap, but then again cluster bombing and spike trap is one of our most efficient damage dealer at the hard mode (higher mp) so my sustain score just allowed me to gloom slightly less often, but at lower mp with strafe or BL/MS farming i am running without gloom skill.

I seem to be the only dh here with ridiculous sustain score here lol T_T
Edited by Quos#6707 on 12/12/2012 8:52 PM PST
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@ Quos your sustain is just insane man. Im cuirous though on your kill speed? and what mp do you normally farm with that dps.
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hmm, mp 0 alkaizser strafe thru ususally takes me around 9min odd, i can do up to mp 2 at 10min +/- 1min or so. but i usually just run mp 0 becase it feels faster.. lol.

Actually I tink if tank dhs ever come in to get rank we will be looking at near 3 substain score from them.
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hmm, mp 0 alkaizser strafe thru ususally takes me around 9min odd, i can do up to mp 2 at 10min +/- 1min or so. but i usually just run mp 0 becase it feels faster.. lol.

Actually I tink if tank dhs ever come in to get rank we will be looking at near 3 substain score from them.


show off
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Hello, Celanian

There you go

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/이노센스-3277/이노센스/15866952
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hmm, mp 0 alkaizser strafe thru ususally takes me around 9min odd, i can do up to mp 2 at 10min +/- 1min or so. but i usually just run mp 0 becase it feels faster.. lol.

Actually I tink if tank dhs ever come in to get rank we will be looking at near 3 substain score from them.


show off


=p go get ur self a loh ammy before the formula get changed XD
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Hello, Celanian

There you go

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/이노센스-3277/이노센스/15866952


here come the best manti in world currently lol XD

photon i took the liberty to calculate the korean score XD

Hall Score: 73,301.24

DPS Score: 518.49
EHP Score: 67.61
Sustain Score: 1.09
Move Score: 1.25
Paragon Score: 1.50
Misc Score: 1.03

And i laugh at my self... XD
Edited by Quos#6707 on 12/12/2012 10:30 PM PST
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Hello, Celanian

There you go

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/이노센스-3277/이노센스/15866952


here come the best manti in world currently lol XD

photon i took the liberty to calculate the korean score XD

Hall Score: 73,301.24

DPS Score: 518.49
EHP Score: 67.61
Sustain Score: 1.09
Move Score: 1.25
Paragon Score: 1.50
Misc Score: 1.03

And i laugh at my self... XD


Base on this score, isnt he the new num 1 in the hall of godly DH?
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