Diablo® III

Critical Mass - Ever So Slightly Rebalanced

lol noob - end game in a arpg IS spamming powerful spells. D3 no different - all class can do it (with right gear) CM is our mechanism and archon which spams a 375% aoe beam.

if you don't like the build don't play it but save game design for the pros - u have no clue.


Uh, yes, Aimless, thankyou for your "constructive" discussion. Incidently, i'd like to introduce you to my friend, his name is Repetitive Stress Injury :P

You're right though, i don't like spamming Frost Nova, which is exactly why i've spent lots of gold and modified my gear and spec specifically so that i don't have to. I just wish i didn't have to give up about 25% of my efficiency to do it, but oh well, a man can dream.
Reply Quote
Posts: 13,646
View profile
then play WD. pets is their CC liek freeze is ours. But they still spam the crap out of secondary spells at high levels. ur not gonna change that spam dynamic would break wiz and no build would survive higher MP. Take off FN take and off CM and see even with ur high mitigation you'll just die all the time.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 11/30/2012 3:31 AM PST
Reply Quote
11/30/2012 03:30 AMPosted by Aimless
then play WD. pets is their CC liek freeze is ours. But they still spam the crap out of secondary spells at high levels.


Yeah, i have a 60 WD. If i was going to have a stab at balancing them i'm sure Zombie Bears and Acid Rain (and possibly Zombie Dogs + Sacrafice) would be on the menu, along with Grave Injustice mechanics, but i don't really have end-game WD experience so i wouldn't bother talking specifics without doing my research.

I realise everyone hates nerfs, but honestly, they are quite often the easiest way to achieve balance. It's the path of least resistance. Much less work to tone down 1 spell than collectively bring up and perfectly balance 49 others, yano? Once you've achieved spell balance, then you can deal with class balance much more easily - eg. double the effect of Blur, halve the cooldown on Teleport, give ranged classes a 10% built-in damage bonus, etc etc.

Also, i hate being pidgeon-holed into using pets, which is one of the reasons i stuck with my Wizard instead of the WD.

11/30/2012 03:30 AMPosted by Aimless
ur not gonna change that spam dynamic would break wiz and no build would survive higher MP. Take off FN take and off CM and see even with ur high mitigation you'll just die all the time.


Exactly. Glad to see you agree with me! So the logical solution is to bring CM (and possibly Archon) down a notch, and everything else up a notch (or two). This thread covers the first part.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 3:56 AM PST
Reply Quote
11/29/2012 10:38 PMPosted by pabrt
this is a terrible idea


Agree

CM is only powerful because you can "abuse" it - proc it very, very, very frequently. If you add a very minor negative side-effect to the ability, then that very minor negative side effect is only going to be substantially detrimental if you "abuse" it by procing it very, very, very frequently.

You yourself are using CM. Don't you ever wish you had other options?


I don't think you understand how much CM/WW/SC build was nerf since 1.03-1.04. Most people used to perma freeze with less than 2.00 APS but now it require a lot more for it to be effective. Sustaining high APS with crit chance, crit dmg, AR, and life leech is not cheap. What you call "abuse" I call it privilege for those who can AFFORD it.

My question to you since you feel like CM wizard is invincible...

How much gold/real money did you spend on your gear?

What mp lvl can you farm "efficiently"? efficiency is up to you, the player, not us the judgmental people. I just wanted to clarify that... before you answer.

Can you solo MP10 uber (ALL 3). Show proof for SK/witch if you can take quick screen shot. The other two uber i don't really care about cuz they're ez.

Better yet do a quick youtube video of an alkaizer run with keep (all 3 lvl) on MP10. Ya know action speak louder than words.

FYI, there are other build beside CM and frost nova... it's just not up to people standard because they have to KITE. People is so used to tanking they forgot wizard is a range class.

IMO CM wizard is the strongest out of all class but you're looking at billions for the build to be efficient in mp10

Nerfing CM and boosting other skill will not solve anything. Crowd control is the key to higher MP and nothing say crowd control like frost nova with CM.
Edited by sNAz#1749 on 11/30/2012 4:54 AM PST
Reply Quote
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thing I read. First off next time you go smoke a joint just sit on the couch and eat cheese puffs. This is at best a brain fart of an idea and the thread should be immediatly deleted so as not to spread this infection.

To even think about hitting the Critical Mass with another nerf is absolutely retarded. Blizzard already nerfed the build one time and it now requires expensive gear to work properly.

This is really a end game build utilizing end game gear and I would imagine only a small population of players have the gear right now. Just because more and more of the player base is getting the gear and running the spec does not mean it should be nerfed. This is how a game progresses, people get gear, good builds get better as a result.
Reply Quote
@sNAz

Firstly, thank you for your constructive comments. I don't mind at all if you think my idea is terrible, i'm more interested in talking about why i had it in the first place and what other idea/s might be even better.

I'll start by answering your questions:

I couldn't say exactly off the top of my head, but i would estimate my total gearset to be worth about 1-2 billion gold in the current market. Somewhere between $500 - $1,000 USD. I would say i've aquired about 1/4 of that through lucky drops, and the rest through smart purchases and playing the market. So yes, my gear is pretty good, and that's a fair point to consider when weighing my ideas. That said, there are literally thousands of people with better than me, so i don't think my opinion is invalid because of my gear.

I would say MP4 or 5 is the most efficient at my dps level using my current build. If i was to switch to the cookie cutter SNS, i'd probably say 6-8. That's prioritising loot over XP though, and personally i prioritise fun over both of those things.

Yes i have solo'd the MP10 bosses, in fact i did it a few weeks ago with much worse gear, using the standard SNS build. I ran it the other night with a group and the only time i died was when Siegebreaker picked me up during enrage after everyone else was dead - and that was without Frost Nova. I'm pretty confident i could solo it in a sub-par spec with my current gear. That alone speaks magnitudes - the fight is so, so much easier when you freezelock them for the entire duration.

If you're interested, i recorded a video of my current spec in MP8 the other day: http://youtu.be/EjuwVon2xNE. I would say it demonstrates fairly well that a) you don't HAVE to spam frost nova but b) you're damn well better off if you do. Feel free to add me and hit me up for an ubers run or just farming or whatever if you'd like less words and more action, so to speak :)

I think the main point i disagree with you on is the cost and effectiveness. Yes my gear is damn expensive, but honestly, i paid extra for half of it simply based on the looks. You don't need this kind of gear to make CM work in high MP levels, and you don't need more than 2.0 APS to keep elites frozen for 90% of the fight - which is more than enough to trivialize them. I would bet my bottom dollar that it would cost you less to gear CM for MP5 efficiency than an archon to gear for MP5, and i'm sure you can imagine how much more expensive it would be if you didn't use archon either.

Believe me, i am well aware of how the coefficients of WW and other similar spells have changed - i have been following them closely since 1.0.2. Yes WW was nerfed - and it hardly made a difference. As you said yourself, crowd control is key to the higher MP levels and there's no crowd control like spamming Frost Nova. My sore fingers are demanding other options.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 5:56 AM PST
Reply Quote
No further nerfs to cm. It and wizards have been nerfed enough and we have not retained the buffs needed to make us truly diverse in return. We have gotten token treatment.
Reply Quote
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thing I read. First off next time you go smoke a joint just sit on the couch and eat cheese puffs. This is at best a brain fart of an idea and the thread should be immediatly deleted so as not to spread this infection.

To even think about hitting the Critical Mass with another nerf is absolutely retarded. Blizzard already nerfed the build one time and it now requires expensive gear to work properly.

This is really a end game build utilizing end game gear and I would imagine only a small population of players have the gear right now. Just because more and more of the player base is getting the gear and running the spec does not mean it should be nerfed. This is how a game progresses, people get gear, good builds get better as a result.


Well, at least you took the time to read the thread, haha.

Yes they nerfed Critical Mass a little bit, yes it is an end-game build and the gear requirements are somewhat steep for a new player. And yes, as people get better gear, the spec becomes more and more popular. However...

You sound as if you'd be perfectly okay with every single wizard using CM and nothing else in a few moths time. Check out DiabloProgress and tell me what % of wizards are using Critical Mass - i'm fairly certain it will indicate that more than just "a small population of players" are running it, and i can garuntee you there's a good reason.

Give me any set amount of gold and i'm very confident that a CM build will greatly out-perform any other build you can come up with at that gear level. If that doesn't mean that CM is still a little overpowered, i don't know what does. I'm not saying they should destroy it completely, but it sure ain't balanced yet.

11/30/2012 05:46 AMPosted by Sennin
No further nerfs to cm. It and wizards have been nerfed enough and we have not retained the buffs needed to make us truly diverse in return. We have gotten token treatment.


Actually, i agree with the second thing you said. You could even say the strength of CM is holding the class back. Ideally any nerf to CM would be compensated with several large buffs. I'm not going to rule out the possibility of them balancing the class fine without touching CM, but as i mentioned earlier, it does seem like the path of least resistance.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 5:50 AM PST
Reply Quote
While I don't like the particular change being proposed, it might be nice to see CM "fixed". What is "wrong" that needs fixing? Crazy-button-mash.

Set up a system of changes where each skill has a tiny min cooldown (say .5 seconds or so), then adjust the proc rates upward to compensate. They could also adjust the mob CC resistance such that FN lasts .65 seconds or so (I forget, it might be at that now). There would be 3 effects of this that I can see:

1. You'd need fewer key-presses per second (6/sec for spamming 3 spells)
2. Increased proc rates would also increase LoH and APoC
3. Some decrease in damage from spammed blasts

Side-changes to help balance the class back out...
-Increase damage of many spells
-Cut the tick rate in half for ET (doubling the proc rate again to even it back out, leaving total damage the same)(this would be for graphics/system performance, especially with multiple CMs)

Blizzard should just acknowledge that freeze-lock is part of the game and adjust the class skills so it's not as rough on fingers/wrists/video cards and doesn't semi-require people to use macros.
Reply Quote
@Dragonfly

Ok so first I will say that running 2.0 attack speed is not enough to perma freeze an enemy. Unless that is your at some crazy level of critical chance which is more expensive and probably unobtainable at this point and still maintain a good amount of sheet damage. There have been numerous tests done by Aimless, Aph, Shand, and quite a few others. As a result of this extensive testing a general consensus has been made that you need 2.73 attacks per second and over 50% cc to effectively perma freeze and even then you cannot really perma freeze one mob.

And yes I would be perfectly fine with every wizard using CM. Everyone has a play style and if everyone enjoyed CM and perma freeze then let em have at it. I enjoy the build, I have played archon builds, forked lighting builds. I even used to play the spectral blades and meteor build which was really fun. I think it is a breath of fresh air to say that wizards in diablo 3 are not just glass cannon, stand in the back dps'ers. I even remember some Blizzard people saying that they did not want this either.

This game is designed for solo and group play. I have grouped with non CM wizards before and had a lot of fun. A non CM wizard must rely on another party member to tank the elites on high MP levels or else they will die if their gear is not rated for survivability.

And I would have to strongly disagree that a CM wizard can greatly out perform any other class. Barb's are at least as strong as a CM wizard. Now thats also given that the barb has equivalent gear to what is currently required to be a good CM wizard.

Now how about instead of nerfing a good build again, you make Archon more powerful and more appealing so that it is capable of doing MP10. Or maybe buff lightning so the passive stun on lighting hit is better. How cool would that be to keep mobs stunned with lightning instead of frozen with nova.

Wizards will gear out for a certain build. CM wizards have special gear needs so the passives work. Archon have special gear needs so they dont get destroyed in MP10 and can maintain Archon in MP10.

I do not understand why there is such bias against CM wizards being able to do something. This is not Worlf of Warcraft where mages are only dps glass cannons spamming fireballs.
Edited by Azodeus#1244 on 11/30/2012 6:08 AM PST
Reply Quote
@Maysrill

Well said, you raise some good points, and i agree with you on the crazy-button-mashing. The idea i suggested is just one of many possibilities, of course.

FN at full CC resistance (65%) lasts 1.05 seconds, for the record. In fact, come to think of it, reducing Frost Nova duration might be one way to combat perma-freezing, but you'd have to compensate somehow for builds that aren't spamming it - maybe reduce the cooldown.

One thing i don't agree with you on is blizzard acknowledging freeze-lock - i think monsters should be CC'd at most 75% of the time in any given realistic situation, 95% is just too much. I think it creates some fairly boring gameplay, especially when you add button-mashing to the mix.. but i can definitely understand the feeling of power that comes with this kind of playstyle; i wouldn't suggest doing away with it completely... just toning it down a little.

Another thought - increasing the max CC resistance on elites and bosses may also be a good way of reducing the power of permafreeze.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 6:33 AM PST
Reply Quote
@Azodeus

All of those tests were done with the goal of - practically - permafreezing one mob. The fact is, you don't actually need to permafreeze a single target. The only time you might do that is for MP10 Ubers, and you'll gimp your dps without stupidly amazing gear, but it will trivialize the fight for the rest of the party, so it's worth it.

If you reduce the requirements of those tests so something much more realistic - say, 90% freezelock on 2 targets - the requirements will go down exponentially. And again, you really don't need to freezelock 100% to trivialize all monsters in the game; 90% is more than enough. This is why the build is so strong. Go talk to Shandlar about breakpoints and i'm sure he will agree that there's no point hitting 3.01 if your dps is 10k. The current concensus seems to be that 2.73 is ideal, and i've gone 1 breakpoint below that because i think Mempo's Helm and Inna's Pants are ugly - and it's way, way more than enough, to the point that i've been downplaying IAS/CC and focusing on DPS for a while now.

Funnily enough, i would almost say that CM is more balanced at high levels, because you have access to enough DPS to not even need permafreeze in a lot of situations. But you can't deny that if you added a single freezelock wizard to any ubers group, things are going to get a lot easier.

That all said, i appreciate your position. Maybe a lot of people really do have heaps of fun permafreezing everything. I'm definitely not one of them, but that's cool, i can do my own thing. Like trying to stun with Paralysis and other options (gear) instead of Frost Nova like you suggested. Which is exactly what i was trying in the video i linked you earlier, and have been gearing towards for weeks. The problem is, it's not anywhere near as good, and the difference is very obvious. I appreciate that people like feeling powerful, and nobody wants to be nerfed. I mean, from a psychological point of view, i wouldn't be surprised if the reason people love the CM build so much is simply because of how powerful it is. I wholeheartedly agree with everyone else in this thread who has also said - wouldn't it be amazing if Every build option was as strong as CM?

For the record, i didn't say CM would easily out-perform other classes. If i did, it was a typo, and i meant to say other wizard builds.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 6:32 AM PST
Reply Quote
The point I am trying to make and using the paralysis thing, is that instead of hitting a CM build that works great is not the right thing to do. Instead of hitting our coefficients again or redo CM so that the time it takes off is less we should be more concerned with making Archon and forked lighting and arcane orb more powerful.

Lets have a history lesson shall we.

I am not sure if you remember way back in 1.02 or 1.03 there was a wizard who defied all odds by going pure glass gannon in inferno. Everyone kept saying it was not possible yet as soon as one wizard found a synergy with arcane orbs, dynamo and archon, IAS got nerfed bad. The build still required skill, high end IAS, CC and CD gear. There was nothing more fun that killing Azmodan on Inferno mode in 15 seconds. IT WAS FUN.

The beauty to this build was that it was just as powerful as the spectral blade and meteor build which was around at the same time.

So what does blizzard do? They nerfed IAS so that the most powerful build, the original glass cannon build, was no longer viable with current gear. With IAS cut in half you could no longer sustain the required dps necessary to kill mobs on inferno.

The spectral blade and meteor combo went largely unnoticed. At this time more and more people started seeing light at the end of the tunnel with this build and started experimenting. Thus we ended up with a few different builds that worked with CM. People liked this build because now the nerf to IAS did not seem so bad. It was way to cope with the IAS nerf and still be effective in end game at the time.

Now CM was the most powerful build. No longer was it a dps race to kill mobs in 2 seconds it was a perma freeze and face tank. What happens next? Blizzard nerfs us AGAIN. This time hitting the now currently most powerful build with nerfs to coefficients so the spells would not proc CM as much.

Now here we are, current time, spending billions of gold on the highest end gear just so we can do MP10 content.

Do you see the pattern now? Everytime the community comes up with a way to cope with a blizzard nerf and new powerful build comes out it gets nerfed. First it was glass cannon, second was CM. Now your saying to hit us with another nerf but buff more spells? All that will happen is people have to re-gear again, the community will eventually come up with another all powerful end game build which blizzard will then nerf because every wizard uses it.

The nerfing has to stop. CM is perfectly fine where it is. It requires end game gear to be effective and once you get that gear it is perfectly reasonable that you can perma freeze mobs.

I am sorry Dragonfly but nothing you say will convince me and a lot of people that nerfing Critical Mass or re-working CM so that it less effective will ever come off as sounding correct or needed right now. Maybe you were not around during the IAS nerf, I do not know, but that left a really bad taste in our mouths only to get hit again when we found a way to deal with the nerf to IAS. We already worry and lose sleep over the fact that Blizzard may very well hit Critical Mass again while claiming to nerf other passives and abilities. Their last round of Nerfs and Buffs was a total joke. Blizzard made it impossible to deal with reflect damage with out LOH with their last round buffs. Yes I said it BUFFS. So even when they buff us we have to re gear, how ironic is that?
Edited by Azodeus#1244 on 11/30/2012 6:59 AM PST
Reply Quote
I realise everyone hates nerfs, but honestly, they are quite often the easiest way to achieve balance.


You mean the laziest way.
Reply Quote
@Azodeus

You and i have a fairly different idea of history, i'm afraid. And for the record, i've been playing since release.

As far as i'm aware, IAS was cut in half simply because it was too good. At almost any gear level, increasing your attack speed gave significantly more DPS than increasing any other stat - on top of the inherent defensive bonus of being really fast. It was always the obvious choice. Quite simply, it wasn't balanced, and they acted. I'm glad they did, now Int, CC, CD and IAS all benefit my character and increase my DPS in similar but different ways. I don't believe that it had anything to do with any specific wizard build. I'm sure you can look up the official blog post if you want to confirm that.

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but the Spectral Blade and Meteor build from back then was overpowered in the same way that CM/WW is now. The coefficients were too high, and they've been greatly reduced since then, much to the benefit of build variety. Personally i think they may have hit the SB coefficient a little too hard, but they've at least compensated in other ways. Furthermore, the reason WW took time to hit the scene in that build is because the coefficient of WW at the time was 5%. It wasn't until later that it was bumped up to 25% and the signature spell was dropped, and eventually we have the CM/WW of today.

It sounds like you generally don't agree with the changes blizzard have made so far. I actually think they're on the right track, and the game is only getting better. Maybe i'm biased because i have money or something, maybe i'm straight up wrong or just plain different, but i am absolutely okay with being nerfed in the name of overall balance - just as you are perfectly fine with everyone using CM and permafreezing every encounter. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. And for the record, the IAS nerf severely damaged the viability of my WD build at the time, which was relying on Ghost Bomb and decent LoH + IAS. I simply accepted that i didn't have the necessary gear to progress with that build (farming act 1 worked fine, however) and moved on to something else. I've since then gone back to that character and had plenty of fun using that same old build, which is now perfectly viable.

At any rate, i may not have all the answers, but i would like to think my feedback on this topic is at the very least relevant to and perhaps even shared by someone out there.

11/30/2012 08:51 AMPosted by jenpeezey
I realise everyone hates nerfs, but honestly, they are quite often the easiest way to achieve balance.


You mean the laziest way.


Possibly both!
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 9:31 AM PST
Reply Quote
Maybe i'm biased because i have money or something, maybe i'm straight up wrong or just plain different,


What does having money have anything to do with this?
Reply Quote
11/30/2012 09:30 AMPosted by jenpeezey
Maybe i'm biased because i have money or something, maybe i'm straight up wrong or just plain different,


What does having money have anything to do with this?


I meant in-game money. I'm somewhat broke in real life, actually, being a student and all :P

Edit: Specifically, i meant to say that it makes re-gearing after a nerf easier.. but the reference was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as i personally think the concept of having to re-gear after every nerf is nothing short of hyperbole.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 11/30/2012 9:37 AM PST
Reply Quote
11/30/2012 09:31 AMPosted by Dragonfly


What does having money have anything to do with this?


I meant in-game money. I'm somewhat broke in real life, actually, being a student and all :P


What are you studying?
Reply Quote
11/30/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Azodeus
What are you studying?


Game design! Lol, just kidding.

I did 3 years of web design and followed that up with 3 years of music, specifically composition and production.
Reply Quote
What are you studying?


Game design! Lol, just kidding.

I did 3 years of web design and followed that up with 3 years of music, specifically composition and production.


So your an arts student then? That explanis a lot then. See I am engineer by degree/career and we believe in overdoing stuff so that its better and more powerful. Catch my drift?
Edited by Azodeus#1244 on 11/30/2012 9:40 AM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]