Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
Sorry but the math doesn't work the way you think at least in my experience.
Math only works one way.
Hell, even if blood ritual made me lose life equal to 100% of the mana cost of my spells instead of just 15% it would still cause me to gain life even while spamming my highest mana cost spells.
Edited by Stil#1181 on 11/26/2012 5:47 AM PST
Blood Ritual will always win in a straight Mana cost comparison.
With BR, your bears go from 140 cost, to 119 mana per cast.
So that saves you 21 mana per cast.
If your casting at 1.4 APS thats essentially the same as 29.4 MPS.
SA, even with 1300 mana only gives 13 MPS back.
However, there are other factors to consider, like Brahm said above.
SAs main benifit is the 20% mana. It lets you burn things down longer before going OOM.
Personally i prefer BR. It may be because I run 2h but thats just me.
I don't understand what you are meaning by BR hurting more with RD mobs. That just doesn't make much sense. BR (although in the description looks like you are paying life away) really doesn't end up being more than a mana reduction for all skills + life/sec.
A bear cast is 140 mana... 15% of that is 21 which you are paying with life. I am pretty sure you wont even see a different dropping 21 hp with a bear cast considering you will be getting 1% life back from the regen. Even with my 1k mana exhausting it all, it will only drop my health by 150hp. Sorry... but 150 hp out of 60k is not even noticeable. Not to mention BR gives me an additional ~600 life / sec.... so life actually is helped... not hindered by using BR.
Im a bit confused as to why a LS skorn would have any impact on how BR/SA works?
It really just comes down to your build / play style.
I personally prefer BR because it just syncs better with my gear.
I have been switching up the spec a bit for keyfarming runs recently. (Swapped WoS for Widomakers, and RoE for GF).
Basically with those changes, I dont worry about mana on MP7. Most stuff dies before my mana is gone, and if it gets low i simply pop SW (30% mana) and keep on spamming. If i get too low and SW isnt up i cast a few WM.
The spec you see on my profile now (WOS) is mainly for ubers.
Ok I found a reflect pack in Act III MP6.
Skills - Bears, Leaping Spiders, Acid Cloud
Passives - BR + GF + SV
Weapon: 4.5% Life steal Skorn.
Mana efficiency: Can't say I noticed a difference between SA in combat. Reflect had lasers so there was a lot of dodging.
SV did kick in during battle as one of those nasty axe demons wacked me. But other than that I didn't lose too much health. I did use acid cloud also and I have some life on hit.
I would have to say that I thnk BR is viable with a life steal Skorn in higher MP. With a 1H I wouldn't use it.
If you look at my original post, you will see what I have observed. It sounds insignificant but all BR is when fighting a reflect mob is a multiplier of health loss.
Life regen in combat I believe stops at certain times. That's what I see when I use the health indicator options.
A 3% life steal weapon and BR didn't work for me in MP5 and I really noticed it when fighting reflect packs. SO I switched to SA instead and that worked better for me.
None of these skills are throw them on and use them in all situations.
Edited by skywalkerfx#1247 on 11/26/2012 6:35 AM PST
Life regen doesn't stop, it ticks 2 times per second always.
Life steal, reflect damage, monster power are all COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT when discussing blood ritual.
Every time you cast bears you spend 21 life if you have blood ritual equipped. Every second you gain 450 life with blood ritual equipped. Attack speed is capped at 3 attacks per second. So even if you somehow got the gear to reach the attack speed cap and maintain your 45k hp you would GAIN 387 life per second by using blood ritual.
By switching to SA you are losing a significant amount of life regeneration, decreasing your survivability.
The only way I can see that tiny life loss offsetting the 1% hp regen is if it allows you to spam high-damage spells faster at an HP deficit.
The damage taken from reflect is reduced by armor, so everyone has their own personal break-point percentage-wise for where LS cancels out RD. For most people though, it's somewhere greater than 3% (usually in the 4% range).
What that means is the faster you deal damage, the most it hurts. You need to moderate your DPS and use globes, potions, regen etc. to offset it (or have enough of an hp pool to just win the hp race with the mobs).
I'm still new at this WD thing, but the wiz community math'ed this issue into the ground when the 1.05 PTR came up. 3% LS just isn't enough by itself to offset RD unless you have CRAZY defenses. If your own damage is hurting you, net, after LS, the faster you can deal that damage, the more it hurts. Thus, the most efficient mana abilities for spamming bears would also be the one most likely to kill you from RD.
TL;DR if your bears hurt, stop spamming them before they kill you. It's not the 21 damage from BR killing you, it's the repeated 4k RD hitting you faster due to better mana management.
Well I guess we have a difference of opinion here and we will have to leave it at that.
I'm sure that there are many players that don't use BR for various reasons.
Players should try VQ, SA, and BR and see what works best for them and their play style.
I have 62k HP.
1% of 62k is 620
Bears cost 119 Mana per cast.
I have an attack speed of 1.16
I will spend 119*1.16 = 138.04 MPS.
I will spend 1.16*(140-119)= 24.36 life per second.
I will gain 620 LPS before above cost.
Net LPS = 595.64.
Sure, BR causes me to lose a bit of my LPS, but to be totally honest, LPS is essentially usless at high MP levels anyways. The only thing that matters is 620 LPS > 24.36 LPS cost.
EVEN if BR didnt give me ANY LPS, meaning it cost me 24.36 Life per second I would still use it. 24 LPS cost is so insignificant (unless your a glass cannon).
Well I guess we have a difference of opinion here and we will have to leave it at that.
Very well. You can keep doing your thing. I am sure it will work, this is d3 after all and only pve.
The point of this thread was just to educate those willing to learn because you are not the first or only one to read the part of BR that says you will spend hp equal to 15% of your spells mana cost and come to the FALSE conclusion that BR will make you lose life.
But since we are trying to help people in this thread it should be added that whether or not BR causes you to gain or lose hp is not a matter of opinion. You gain health with BR and this is fact.
Edited by Stil#1181 on 11/26/2012 7:05 AM PST
Your thread is your opinion of why you like one skill. Everyone doesn't have to use it to be successful. I understand your points and I like these discussions because it makes us all think about what we do and why we do it.
If it makes you feel better -- you are more right then I am.
That being said I'll continue to play how I want to, and if I see threads like this that try to support one play style over another, I will voice my opinion on it -- either for or against the idea.
No my thread is a mathematical statement showing how blood ritual WILL outperform SA in terms of mana management in almost all situations. It has also become a mathematical statement about the life regeneration benefits of BR as well.
These are not opinions. These are facts. There is a difference.
You don't have to like BR more then SA, you don't have to use BR over SA. However, If you do choose to use BR over SA your character WILL be stronger. Better mana longevity (barring extreme circumstances) and more health regeneration (in ALL circumstances). Fact.
The only opinion part of the thread is that I recommend that all WD should use BR over SA. This is because whether you use SA or BR your playstyle will be exactly the same in game, however if you use BR your character will perform better.
Edited by Stil#1181 on 11/26/2012 7:20 AM PST
That's not necessarily true, with my gear spiritual atunnement gets a draw with blood ritual in terms of mana autonomy using bears, spiritual attunement also have more sinergy with Honored guest than blood ritual, but i use blood ritual because the life regeneration.
If you have more base mana than i have(977), spiritual attunement becomes better than blood ritual for bears spamming.
Let me show the math i am using:
Zombie bears cost: 140
Zombie bears cost with blood ritual: 119
My base mana: 977
My base mana regeneration: 104
Base mana With spiritual attunement: 1172
Base mana regeneration with SP:115,69
My Attack speed: 1.53
Mana consumed per second with blood ritual:182,07 - 104= 78,07 per second.
Time of spamming until OOM: 977/78,07= 12,51 seconds
Mana consumed per second with spiritual attunement: 214- 115,69= 98,31
Time of spamming until OOM:1172/98,31= 11,92 seconds.
Blood ritual wins just barely in my case, but considering that spiritual attunement works better with Honored guest,grave injustice and gruesome feast, we could say we have a technical draw.
Edited by Carlucio#1777 on 11/26/2012 7:30 AM PST
holy cow... just admit you are wrong. you are wrong from the start, and ur opinion about BR huring more at higher mps made 0 sense. 1+1=3 is not an opinion ppl should respect, it's just plain stuipd.
and gi is not useless outside of low mps, it's useful as long as you can support it. i use it on mp5 cuz i have enough dmg to support it. i am sure ppl with better gear can support it even at higher mp levels.
back to topic. op is partially rite, br is better than sa without considering skill factor, it's not true with +% mana regen skill.
sa vs vq depends on skill. sa don't need primary attacks to work. so comparing this two in terms of numbers don't work.
Edited by Nerzaa#1863 on 11/26/2012 7:27 AM PST
Well here's an interesting fact for you.
Our beloved WD SoundB is back in town having taken a vacation as a DH.
Looked at his profile, and he is running VQ, JF, And PtV.
Maybe the next time he is around you should tell him how dumb he is to be using VQ and how you know for a fact BR is the end all skill for us WDs.
I would like to see that discussion.
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.