Diablo® III

Spiritual Attunement, a COMMON mistake

11/26/2012 07:25 AMPosted by Carlucio
Blood ritual wins just barely in my case, but considering that spiritual attunement works better with Honored guest, we could say it's a technical draw.


great analysis. ppl tend to focus on numbers on its own without considering the skill factor.
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11/26/2012 07:15 AMPosted by Stil
No my thread is a mathematical statement showing how blood ritual WILL outperform SA in terms of mana management in almost all situations. It has also become a mathematical statement about the life regeneration benefits of BR as well.


When I read this thread, I imagine the blonde on FOX news saying...

"Is this just math you do as a WD to make yourself feel better?"

But seriously, Stil is absolutely correct here. If you don't believe the math, just run siegebreaker a couple times with and w/o BR. You will find that the moral of the story is: reflect hurts. BR does not "multiply" that in any way.
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That's not necessarily true, with my gear spiritual atunnement gets a draw with blood ritual in terms of mana autonomy using bears, spiritual attunement also have more sinergy with Honored guest than blood ritual, but i use blood ritual because the life regeneration.

If you have more base mana than i do(977), spiritual attunement becomes better than blood ritual for bears spamming.

Let me show the math i am using:
Zombie bears cost: 140
Zombie bears cost with blood ritual: 119
My base mana: 977
My base mana regeneration: 104
Base mana With spiritual attunement: 1172
Base mana regeneration with SP:115,69
My Attack speed: 1.53
Mana consumed per second with blood ritual:182,07 - 104= 78,07 per second.
Time of spamming until OOM: 977/78,07= 12,51 seconds

Mana consumed per second with spiritual attunement: 214- 115,69= 98,31
Time of spamming until OOM:1172/98,31= 11,92 seconds.

Blood ritual wins just barely in my case, but considering that spiritual attunement works better with Honored guest, we could say it's a technical draw.


Good point about honored guest synergy.

However doing a straight full mana to oom test is a test that clearly favors SA and does not reflect the majority of in game situations. By this I mean that in real game situations where you use some mana, regen a bit but not qutie to full, use some mana, etc. mana usage rate becomes more and more important compared to maximum mana.
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Well here's an interesting fact for you.

Our beloved WD SoundB is back in town having taken a vacation as a DH.

Looked at his profile, and he is running VQ, JF, And PtV.

Maybe the next time he is around you should tell him how dumb he is to be using VQ and how you know for a fact BR is the end all skill for us WDs.

I would like to see that discussion.


Ok so now you have gone from being mathematically incompetent to completely illiterate. This thread has nothing to do with VQ.

It is comparing BR and SA because there are plenty of bulids where WD must choose 1 or the other of these skills. The choice has no impact whatsoever on playstyle so most WD are going to want to choose the more effective passive.
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I guess insulting me makes you feel better about yourself.

You make 0 sense. No one has to play with SA or BR in some senario of yours.

VQ does the same thing as SA and BR. Players should choose what is best for them.

If I use VQ instead of BR that's OK. But if I use SA, then you think I'm stupid.

So I'll just use VQ and that should solve your problems?
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I guess insulting me makes you feel better about yourself.

You make 0 sense. No one has to play with SA or BR in some senario of yours.

VQ does the same thing as SA and BR. Players should choose what is best for them.

If I use VQ instead of BR that's OK. But if I use SA, then you think I'm stupid.

So I'll just use VQ and that should solve your problems?


If you didn't spout nonstop nonsense and illogical babble and admitted when you were wrong then you wouldn't appear such a magnet for insults. I never said someone had to use SA or BR. Please, learn to read. This thread is for those WD who ARE going to be using one of the two.

VQ does not do the same thing. Although it is a tool for mana longevity, VQ requires the use of a primary and therefor the choice between VQ and SA/BR makes a difference in playstyle.

The choice between SA and BR makes NO difference in playstyle. They are both true passives that run in the background and do nothing but bolster your mana or health longevity.

The reason I think you are stupid is because you have repeatedly made statements in this thread indicating that you think 31 is greater than 500. (31 Being the hp cost for you to use BR and cast bears and 500 being the hp gain of you using BR). You also said repeatedly that monster power and reflect damage affect blood ritual. How could I not think that someone who somehow reached those conclusions is stupid.

You are right that players should use what is best for them. That is the point of this post. You are a prime example of a person who cannot use math themselves to determine what is best so this thread hopefully will help some players out there who love d3 but aren't fans of math to make the best decision for themselves.
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1 Draenei Warrior
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ITT, people who fail at basic math (or just one person who does).

Seriously, this is like the simplest of simple math, and somehow someone can actually be dense enough to think it matters based on MP level or God knows what else?

BR does damage based on mana cost only, read the skill again, read it 5 more times, keep reading it until you actually understand the words, you'll notice it says that 15% of your mana cost is paid in life. Notice how it doesn't say 15% x your MP level, or 15% of the damage you do, or 15% of the mob's health, or any other statement that might imply some level of scaling with MP levels. Now unless you're telling the fundamentals of mathematics actually change based on MP level, it'll be the same on every level, and it'll always be a net gain in health.

This is not based on experience. This is not subjective. This is not based on personal preference. This is a hard fact, it's mathematically proven, and the only way you can argue against it is if basic math eludes you.

PS: MP5 is still easily farmable with GI/GF with gear, it's not a "hard" MP level.
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If you didn't spout nonstop nonsense and illogical babble and admitted when you were wrong then you wouldn't appear such a magnet for insults. I never said someone had to use SA or BR. Please, learn to read. This thread is for those WD who ARE going to be using one of the two.


No my friend, it is you who have a problem with differences of opinion and you think insulting me personally somehow makes your arguments stronger. If I were you I would confine myself to talking about the subject and quit lobbing insults when engaging in discussions with other people.

You've convinced me of nothing other than the fact that you think in a very restricted manner about this game.
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11/26/2012 08:19 AMPosted by skywalkerfx
If you didn't spout nonstop nonsense and illogical babble and admitted when you were wrong then you wouldn't appear such a magnet for insults. I never said someone had to use SA or BR. Please, learn to read. This thread is for those WD who ARE going to be using one of the two.


No my friend, it is you who have a problem with differences of opinion and you think insulting me personally somehow makes your arguments stronger. If I were you I would confine myself to talking about the subject and quit lobbing insults when engaging in discussions with other people.

You've convinced me of nothing other than the fact that you think in a very restricted manner about this game.


You are finally correct about something: his thinking IS restricted... by basic math.
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VQ does the same thing as SA and BR. Players should choose what is best for them.


YOur right, it does DO the same thing, however the opportunity cost is no where near the same.

OC of BR is forgoing another passive, (and 15% of mana cost as life, which really isnt a cost as explained above).

OC of SA is the cost of another passive.

OC of VQ is the cost of another passive AND the cost of giving up 1 cast per 5 seconds to use a primary.

Just a quick example.
I have 1.16 APS. I can cast bears 5.8 times per 5 seconds.

Bears do 236% per bear and can pierce. Lets assume a SINGLE target, and only 1 bear hitting. I would do 236*5.8 per 5 seconds = 1368.8%

Now lets assume 1 of those 5 casts is a primary. Lets go with Widowmakers.
I would now do 120% +4.8*236%. Total of 1252%.
Thats a DPS loss of approximatly 8.5% by casting Spiders.

Now lets assume we are attacking a Elite pack. In this case its very common for your bears to hit multiple targets, and also every bear hit a mob. So lets assume each bear hits 2 targets.
3*2*236*5.8= 8212.8% damage in 5s

Now cast WM 1 time per 5s,
120%+3*2*236*4.8= 6916.8%
Net DPS loss of about 15.8%

While VQ definitely has its uses, it has a far higher OC to use.
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Just use both? Shucks, profile isnt updated.
Edited by HandGestures#1375 on 11/26/2012 8:37 AM PST
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Just use both? Shucks, profile isnt updated.


Its an option but personally I prefer to use the passive for something else.
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Skywalker... Sorry but your wrong! BR is helping your sustain in exactly the way Stil posted. There is no way you burn more HP than you get by using BR with a normal level 60 HP pool. If your regen really stops it is a bug and not happening to me nor anybody else I talked to.

If you only look at mana, SA will help more at 1.4 as, bear spam with a mana pool of 980. Plus when your oom, you will recover mana faster than with BR (that's what many people forget to take into account^^)

Question is, how many mana your burn per second. Just look at the spell (ZB 140 mana) and multiply by your attacks per second: 1.4 x 140 = 196
But you don't burn 196 mana per second, because you have regen, aye?! Lets say you have 50 (base is 40 plus 10 from gear... Most will have more) you just burn 146 per second.

So with 980 mana.... Oh wait +20% = 1180 (I rounded) you get even 12 more regen, only burning 134 mana per second.

Now divide what have (1180) by what you loose (134): 1180 : 34 = 8.8

So how does BR work!? Manacost per second 196... But we do need 15% less, so only 166.
Our regen in this example is 50, so we loose 116 mana per second, but have a smaller pool. Just 980.

980 : 116 = 8.4

So SA is superior mana wise.... Your mana pool will last longer. And it's even more superior, because you recover mana faster! Oh wait again.... But with BR you will need LESS mana...

So lets say, we hit 0 mana.... Unlikely, but easy for math ;-)
With BR we need to recover 119 to cast bears again at a rate of 50. With SA we need 140 mana at a rate of 62...

BR: 119 : 50 = 2.38 seconds till next bear
SA: 140 : 62 = 2.26 sec per bear (rounded)

So yes in our example SA is better for mana. It will take longer to burn your mana pool and you recover mana faster. If this makes up for you not getting life regen... Your choice.

So hope that helps and is understandable ^^
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Agains't ubbers i like tribal rites, BR or SA and spirit vessel, that creates a great sinergy with honored guest and pride that allows you to run a almost perfect rotation, great for dps rush like ghom and rakanoth fight.
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Good contribution Ic4rus. You show that at lower base mana regeneration rates SA gains effectiveness. As your base mana regeneration rate increases BR will eventually overtake SA but it is good to know that for new WD with just base mana regeneration that SA is still somewhat viable.
Edited by Stil#1181 on 11/26/2012 8:57 AM PST
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No my friend, it is you who have a problem with differences of opinion and you think insulting me personally somehow makes your arguments stronger. If I were you I would confine myself to talking about the subject and quit lobbing insults when engaging in discussions with other people.

You've convinced me of nothing other than the fact that you think in a very restricted manner about this game.


I have no problems with differences of opinion. But like a poster already mentioned, thinking that 1 + 1 = 3 is not an opinion, its just wrong.
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11/26/2012 08:33 AMPosted by Xarkar
YOur right, it does DO the same thing, however the opportunity cost is no where near the same.


I do appreciate that sentiment but of course each mana generation method depends on the players stats and skills. And while VQ does have an OP cost, running out of mana with bears happens and I spam spiders anyway, so in my case there is 0 OP.

BR: 119 : 50 = 2.38 seconds till next bear
SA: 140 : 62 = 2.26 sec per bear (rounded)

So yes in our example SA is better for mana. It will take longer to burn your mana pool and you recover mana faster. If this makes up for you not getting life regen... Your choice.


Of course there are situations when SA will win out over BR. That is one of the points of my discussion.

I've got to get back to the RL. Thanks for a good discussion.
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11/26/2012 09:02 AMPosted by skywalkerfx
I do appreciate that sentiment but of course each mana generation method depends on the players stats and skills. And while VQ does have an OP cost, running out of mana with bears happens and I spam spiders anyway, so in my case there is 0 OP.


Now not to be too insulting but before you say there is 0 opportunity cost please go look up what opportunity cost means.

11/26/2012 09:02 AMPosted by skywalkerfx
Of course there are situations when SA will win out over BR. That is one of the points of my discussion.


Interesting because this is the first time you have made this point in this thread. All your other posts have been about how BR makes your survivability go down at higher MP and have little or nothing to do with the mana comparison between the passives.
Edited by Stil#1181 on 11/26/2012 9:10 AM PST
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11/26/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Stil
Good contribution Ic4rus. You show that at lower base mana regeneration rates SA gains effectiveness. As your base mana regeneration rate increases BR will eventually overtake SA but it is good to know that for new WD with just base mana regeneration that SA is still somewhat viable.


It's not only about mana regen... You also have to take into account, how big your mana pool is. SA profits from a bigger mana pool, because its percentages are based on it. So you have to do the math for your gear and skill setup (as, regen, mana pool - and what skills are you using).

With my gear for example, SA is just a very bit better when talking about mana. Not having the exact numbers, but when I remember correctly, it was about 0.1 or 0.2 seconds... But I'm going with BR because of the life regen...
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I'm going with BR for both life regen and mana regen ^^.
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