Diablo® III

Spiritual Attunement, a COMMON mistake

Yeah, ofc I choose a passive for mana regen ^^ but as stated, in my case SA is a bit superior... Still going with BR due to its life regen. Got my point!? :-)
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If you have one passive slot and want to choose something for mana longevity ALWAYS go with blood ritual.

Mathematically, blood ritual will always outperform spiritual attunement in terms of mana longevity. If you don't believe me, run the numbers yourself.

A likely reason for so many WD mistakenly selecting SA and not BR is the hp cost. However, The hp cost for casting spells with blood ritual is trivial and and far below the amount of bonus life regeneration provided by the skill.

Now this is not to say that you should never use SA, but rather that you should never use SA unless you are also using BR.

TLDR: Blood ritual provides both more mana longevity AND more health longevity than spiritual attunement.


Isn't this the start of the thread you wrote? Always use BR. Never use SA without BR. Run the numbers yourself.....

Someone shows you the math and you want to say I didn't bring it up?

Did someone steal your account?

I'm going to put up a post about life regen mechanics later today and ask if others have observed the stoppage of regen. Feel free to jump in if you want.
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Isn't this the start of the thread you wrote? Always use BR. Never use SA without BR. Run the numbers yourself.....

Someone shows you the math and you want to say I didn't bring it up?

Did someone steal your account?

I'm going to put up a post about life regen mechanics later today and ask if others have observed the stoppage of regen. Feel free to jump in if you want.


I still stand by it. Even in the most ideal situations SA will only beat out BR by the tiniest amount in the mana department while BR will also provide considerable life regen.

So yes, always use BR over SA if you are just using 1.
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11/26/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Ic4RuS
Yeah, ofc I choose a passive for mana regen ^^ but as stated, in my case SA is a bit superior... Still going with BR due to its life regen. Got my point!? :-)


Yes I got your point and I never argued against it. Sorry if you felt I was arguing against you I was agreeing with you. Once you get 4 piece zuni it should shift to BR for both mana and life in your case anyway.
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OK. We will see how the regen thing goes.
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Maybe I will drop BR and choose another nice passive... But the last Zuni piece is still far ahead. Broke right now :-D
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This is incorrect much of it depends on your gearing.

In a controlled setting I can cast 20 bears in a row with SA.
w/BR I can cast 18.


Not exactly gearing but gearing vs monster power level. If your 20 bears can kill something outright and let you move on, yes it's better. If not, then BR will win out pretty much every time.

What you are seeing is the effects of the increased mana pool as well. You get a little more than one extra shot (roughly) with SA per mana tank and that extra shot lets you regen enough to get one more in, for 20 bears instead of 18. However, if you go any longer than 20 bears, you would get more out of BR every single time.

SA is also better for GF/GI, but again, only if you're playing at a monster power level where you can just run over everything. GI only gives an extra 2 mana per kill (roughly) while GF gives 10 more mana per globe (this is assuming you have roughly 1000 mana base). So since BR generally is the equivalent of about 30 mana/second, you'll need to kill 5 monsters and have two of them drop globes to make them equivalent.
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You know, if there is anything I've learned from playing this class, it's that regardless of gear, you can never have too much mana/regen lol.

All 3 primary mana passives (SA, BR, VQ) are extremely valuable and and beautiful when paired together. My personal philosophy is that I shouldn't ever really need JF/BM/SV passives so long as my gear is strong and I play carefully and intelligently. Max Mana, cost reduction for your primary dps move, and mana regen are all about equally valuable. Even running these 3 passives along with a 10 zc reduction soj and 10 zc reduction serpent, it is still very easy to run oom if you don't manage your bears and keep your vq buff up constantly. Yes, the same is also true with Skorn - I've tested it. Play intelligently, use whatever you find most effective, and stop with debate threads haha.
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I have 1.48 AS.


Ok so assuming 121 base zombie bear mana cost with your uber gear and 1.48 attack speed. BR would reduce your mana expenditure by:

.15 * 121 * 1.48 = 26.8 mana/second

with the base formula being

.15 * mana cost * attacks per second = Reduced mana expenditure

Spiritual attunement provides reduced mana expenditure equivalent to:

( 1.2 * base mana * .01 ) + ( .2 * base mana * .02 * kills per second ) +
( .2 * base mana * .1 * health globes per second )

However, the effects of GI and GF often fall into the category of W.A.W.G.
where W.A.W.G. stands for Wins Already Won Game. I say this because if you are killing things fast and getting health globes at a fast pace then you are likely not running out of mana with either BR or SA. The situations where mana longevity matters are vs elites/bosses/ubers where you might actually run out of mana. In these situations the effects of GI and GF are much much lower.

If we temporarily discount the effects of GI/GF, we can see that you would need a base mana pool of 2233 for SA to provide the same reduced mana expenditure per second as BR.

Now, when fighting a pack of elites or uber bosses there are occasional adds or health globe drops that would cause this value to decrease. If you wish you can plug in estimated values for kills/second and health globes/second and play around with the values.

For example, if we select values of 1 health globe every 5 seconds and 1 kill every second, values extremely high for an ubers fight, and reasonable for what you might encounter fighting an elite pack on an easy to moderate difficulty MP setting, You would still require a base mana pool of 1340 for SA to match the mana expenditure reduction of BR.


No, you can't just remove parts of the equation to prove you point. That's a really bad way to look out how GI/GF function to much theory not enough playing. Do you assume all monsters are in a neat little bundle at all times and that everything dies at the exact same time? That is just a silly way to look at things. Sorry man you are just flat out wrong and contradicting your self between every other post you respond to. There are plenty of scenarios where SA is better. First your stated it wasn't then you stated it was, then you state well it can be but I choice BR for this other reason not because of mana. The dismal life regen is worthless in a lot of cases. GI or Life Steal gives you more then enough back.

In the end it all depends on your gearing as I stated if I just stand still in the town I can fire off 2 more bears before my mana pool runs dry over a BR. While actually playing w/GI+GF it's the difference is even greater. BR is a good choice unless you have multiple MAX Mana items then SA is the better choice.

However as many said they work well together, for ubers though I prefer ROE+SA, and for Upper MP's i'll go SA/BR for MP7 and under I use either GI/GF/SA or GI/GF/SV
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/26/2012 12:01 PM PST
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11/26/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Mozzer
sooooooo is the blood thingy better or not?


If your attack speed is faster than 1.00s, then BR is almost always better than SA AND you get 1% life regen for free.

BR is definitely the #1 choice of mana tactic. Now if you need one more, you'll need to look at your max. mana and mana regen. Higher max mana benefits SA more and higher regen benefits VQ more (except VQ requires you to use a primary once every 6s).

If you use Spirit, then Rush of Essence is the best mana tactic.

Even with 1.00 attack speed, I will still choose BR because I get 1% life regen for free. Most high end WD have at least 50K of health so that's 500 life regen for free while getting 15% mana discount.
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 11/26/2012 12:02 PM PST
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Yes, Max. mana has synergy with Honored Quest/GI just like Blood Ritual has synergy with Fierce Loyalty and much faster attack speed. Your pets get 1% life regen for free if you use that tactic.

We can try to make SA worth it but at the end of day if you spam fast at 1.4s or higher, BR is better.

BR does "hurt" you but if you have any life steal/loh, the issue is near non-existent.
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 11/26/2012 12:09 PM PST
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BR is great unless you have MAX Mana items then SA is the better choice.


Don't agree to this since I have 2-3 max mana items (if I equip my zombie charger SoJ) but I do agree that it really depends on each person's build, attack speed, max mana, and mana regen to determine what is the best scenario for regenerating mana.

For my build with high attack speed (1.74), if I were to just use BR I can spam bears for 7.6 seconds. If I were to just use SA, I can spam bears for 7.72 seconds. They are pretty even to me... except BR gives me 600 life per second as well which is the reason I opt for BR over SA.

Every case is different.
Edited by ofgortens#1113 on 11/26/2012 12:08 PM PST
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sooooooo is the blood thingy better or not?


If your attack speed is faster than 1.00s, then BR is almost always better than SA AND you get 1% life regen for free.

BR is definitely the #1 choice of mana tactic. Now if you need one more, you'll need to look at your max. mana and mana regen. Higher max mana benefits SA more and higher regen benefits VQ more (except VQ requires you to use a primary once every 6s).

If you use Spirit, then Rush of Essence is the best mana tactic.


No, it depends on your base pool size. @ 1.48 I get 2 more bears with SA (standing in town)
@ 1.78 it levels out in town giving me 18 with each. With active usage of GI/GF the additional mana from SA (when you have increased pool size) is even greater and tips the scale for SA, also in active game play you aren't always constantly dumping your full mana pool (when you do it's nice to have a larger pool though) so the additional mana regen you get from SA helps you recover mana faster. BR doesn't give you ANY mana regen it only discounts the cost.

In most cases the only deciding factor to RUN BR is if you have mana regen items over Max Mana not attack speed. Since most WD aren't stacking over 2.0 AS the choice is pretty clear.

Have multiple Max Mana items Run SA.
Have only 1 or no Max Mana and have all Regen run BR.

It really is that simple.

11/26/2012 12:08 PMPosted by ofgortens
BR is great unless you have MAX Mana items then SA is the better choice.


Don't agree to this since I have 2-3 max mana items (if I equip my zombie charger SoJ) but I do agree that it really depends on each person's build, attack speed, max mana, and mana regen to determine what is the best scenario for regenerating mana.

For my build with high attack speed (1.74), if I were to just use BR I can spam bears for 7.6 seconds. If I were to just use SA, I can spam bears for 7.72 seconds. They are pretty even to me... except BR gives me 600 life per second as well which is the reason I opt for BR over SA.

Every case is different.


For me the 350-600 life per second means nothing, but I have a lifesteal weapon and get plenty back from GI.. Others may disagree for there spec. But as you stated SA is better for mana regen with you max mana items and even with attack speed. It depends what you are looking for. Best for mana, or another way to get life.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/26/2012 12:14 PM PST
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No, it depends on your base pool size. @ 1.48 I get 2 more bears with SA (standing in town)
@ 1.78 it levels out in town giving me 18 with each. With active usage of GI/GF the additional mana from SA (when you have increased pool size) is even greater and tips the scale for SA, also in active game play you aren't always constantly dumping your full mana pool (when you do it's nice to have a larger pool though) so the additional mana regen you get from SA helps you recover mana faster. BR doesn't give you ANY mana regen it only discounts the cost.


It is a bit unfair for BR to test casting in the town because SA will always win having bigger pool to start.

The way I see it is this. 140 bear cost, 15% is 21 saving. 21 saving per cast is even greater than 4-pc zuni bonus per second. The faster you cast, the more saving you get and the saving is way better than 1% mana regen because even at 1000 max mana, it's only extra 10 "per second". You save 21 per cast. If you spam at twice per second, that's 42 mana saving. Combo this with some +mana regen or max mana in items, BR just feels better.

I do agree SA has better synergy with Honor/GI but BR's 1% life regen is almost free and it's useful for WDs that stack higher health/AR/armor.

Yes, 1% life regen means nothing on its own but most WDs have items with +regen (Vile Ward for example) and it helps.
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 11/26/2012 12:18 PM PST
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11/26/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Brahm
For me the 350-600 life per second means nothing, but I have a lifesteal weapon and get plenty back from GI.. Others may disagree for there spec.


Yeah sorry but when I am talking about mana regen and sustainability I am not talking about GI/GF builds at all. If I am using GI which I do up through MP6... mana is really not the problem since things die and elites die within a couple seconds (before OOM anyways). Whether you opt for BR or SA in that stage is irrelevant IMO.

Where you need to look at the differences comes in MP8+ where you are not running with GI due to high hp levels of monsters. While I agree the life per second is irrelevant when you are fighting trash mobs (life steal can sustain your health), it does come into play when you are fighting RD elites and are having to kite a little bit either waiting for SW to come back or hitting one elite at a time, etc.

That being said... for MP8+ I usually use all 3 mana regen passives anyways (BR/VQ/SA) so I get all the benefits for high bear sustainability.
Edited by ofgortens#1113 on 11/26/2012 12:19 PM PST
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It is a bit unfair for BR to test casting in the town because SA will always win having bigger pool to start.


The advantage goes the other way. In game play you have time between attacks and aren't doing long sustained attacks like you are in town (when testing). SA gives you a higher regen since you recover mana when you aren't attacking faster with SA then you do with BR.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/26/2012 12:26 PM PST
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Now the real question is why not using both BR/SA? If you even consider either of them, chances are having BOTH is the best solution.

If you are running a Primary spamming build, you may even need either.

If you are running Bear/Acid Cloud or even Firebats spamming, both is better and one is not enough without high mana regen items. It's not like PtV is "efficient" for secondary spells in most cases. I would rather take BR and SA to keep my mana higher to spam Bear than using PtV that depletes me so fast.

VQ is the real "loser" IMO. Having one requirement.
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 11/26/2012 12:32 PM PST
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For me the 350-600 life per second means nothing, but I have a lifesteal weapon and get plenty back from GI.. Others may disagree for there spec.


Yeah sorry but when I am talking about mana regen and sustainability I am not talking about GI/GF builds at all. If I am using GI which I do up through MP6... mana is really not the problem since things die and elites die within a couple seconds (before OOM anyways). Whether you opt for BR or SA in that stage is irrelevant IMO.

Where you need to look at the differences comes in MP8+ where you are not running with GI due to high hp levels of monsters. While I agree the life per second is irrelevant when you are fighting trash mobs (life steal can sustain your health), it does come into play when you are fighting RD elites and are having to kite a little bit either waiting for SW to come back or hitting one elite at a time, etc.

That being said... for MP8+ I usually use all 3 mana regen passives anyways (BR/VQ/SA) so I get all the benefits for high bear sustainability.


I use GI/GF/SA up threw MP7 (sometimes swap for SV) MP8+ doesn't matter for either us as (might for others) as we both switch to SA+BR so there isn't much point in debating that.

However. I disagree mana can 100% be an issue in mp4-7 for most people including myself if you don't want to run a primary. In that case my statements hold true if you have max mana items SA is better if you have mana regen or only 1 max mana then BR is better. If you want to run VQ + Spiders that works to but then you are interrupting your damage spells to cast something else...and that's a whole different topic.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/26/2012 12:31 PM PST
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Now the real question is why not using both BR/SA? If you even consider either of them, chances are having BOTH is the best solution.

If you are running a Primary spamming build, you may even need either.

If you are running Bear/Acid Cloud or even Firebats spamming, both is better and one is not enough without high mana regen items. It's not like PtV is "efficient" for secondary spells in most cases. I would rather take BR and SA to keep my mana higher to spam Bear than using PtV that depletes me so fast.

VQ is the real "loser" IMO. Having one requirement.


I don't use SA+BR in most cases because both of them provide nothing in terms of improving my damage output. Both GI/GF give me increased damage, additional mana, health, additional AR, and cool down reduction. I would only use SA+BR in situations where GI/GF are no longer viable. (YMMV). The only time I use SA+BR is in upper mp's which I don't play that often. Ubers are a very controlled situation and I have a very unique build just for that.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/26/2012 12:40 PM PST
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I prefer BR but if you stack max mana and mana regen on every slot and us honored guest then SA can be better
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