Diablo® III

Spiritual Attunement, a COMMON mistake

The only way I can see that tiny life loss offsetting the 1% hp regen is if it allows you to spam high-damage spells faster at an HP deficit.

The damage taken from reflect is reduced by armor, so everyone has their own personal break-point percentage-wise for where LS cancels out RD. For most people though, it's somewhere greater than 3% (usually in the 4% range).

What that means is the faster you deal damage, the most it hurts. You need to moderate your DPS and use globes, potions, regen etc. to offset it (or have enough of an hp pool to just win the hp race with the mobs).

I'm still new at this WD thing, but the wiz community math'ed this issue into the ground when the 1.05 PTR came up. 3% LS just isn't enough by itself to offset RD unless you have CRAZY defenses. If your own damage is hurting you, net, after LS, the faster you can deal that damage, the more it hurts. Thus, the most efficient mana abilities for spamming bears would also be the one most likely to kill you from RD.

TL;DR if your bears hurt, stop spamming them before they kill you. It's not the 21 damage from BR killing you, it's the repeated 4k RD hitting you faster due to better mana management.


Excellent post sir.
Reply Quote
Stil thanks for posting this for none math guys...just from gaming experience alone there is a noticeable difference between BR and SA. BR definitely wins, I noticed this without reading information or testing the two skills...and it took me quite awhile to realize this because I went through a few gear upgrade changes which caused a lot of confusion.

The whole point of math test is to save people time and provide insight on the direction of the game...it seems like at the moment with the gearing limitation it's a no brainer to pick BR over SA. Sure max mana does open a lot of debates, but come on...we're working in the range of 1k mana pools, how much wiggle room do you actually have? Sure when expansion comes out or once new gear is released it might be more logical to really go for max mana pool...

WD's key problem revolves around resource management while other classes don't have this much issue with their resources. I think this is the zone where all WD need to focus on. Personally I do not see WD scaling better than other classes unless resource management ultimately becomes a none factor for WD...which is very unlikely to happen, just look at our passive, most of the passives are resource management.
Reply Quote
VQ is the real "loser" IMO. Having one requirement.


If you have some mana regen on gear and have primary VQ>>>SA. For example I have 93 base mana regen = 124 mana regen with VQ. To have 31 additional mana regen with SA I would need 3100 (with SA %20) mana pool, which is just impossible to get. And the game mechanics with VQ is pretty basic as long as you get used to it. For me SA is pretty much skill to use if you have only 45 base mana regen.
Edited by KyKaH#2425 on 11/27/2012 12:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
VQ can be a nice alternative if you are OK with interrupting your casting with a weaker primary. I'm not many people are. I've seen it work great for a lot of people and does the job when I do decide to use it.

As far as SA. I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse I spelled out exactly what the circumstances are in previous posts that make SA a better selection over BR. It can be a much better option over BR if you have the gear for it and choose the spells that compliment it. If not BR does fine in a pinch. It simply doesn't provide any other benefit (from a mana stand point) then the initial reduction so it's rather limiting. Most people however proboly won't notice the difference.

What I don't like about Math threads is the give people very limited insight as they tend to focus on 1 specific piece of the puzzle often pointing those that don't know better in the wrong direction. Not everything can be quantified into a nice little spread sheet. Alot of this game is based on random factors.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,184
View profile
11/27/2012 02:25 AMPosted by Brahm
What I don't like about Math threads is the give people very limited insight as they tend to focus on 1 specific piece of the puzzle often pointing those that don't know better in the wrong direction. Not everything can be quantified into a nice little spread sheet. Alot of this game is based on random factors.


How true. The misinformed spreadsheet boys and their BS.

Nothing in this game works all the time and in all situations period.

Apparently, the problems with life regen have been fixed, so you can't die any quicker when using BR other than whatever the drain of it is.

If you think you have some great bonus by getting some life regen, for a mana discounting tool, that can kill you if your regen doesn't tick in time, go for BR.

Just don't tell the rest of us how wonderful you are.
Reply Quote
I don't understand why math is even needed here. Equip one, count how many bears you can spam. Equip the other, count how many bears you can spam.
Reply Quote
Or use both and not have any regen issues. I've been rolling around on mp5-6 key farming with no issues. Using BR and SA, and only 85k dps.
Edited by HandGestures#1375 on 11/27/2012 7:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
11/27/2012 02:25 AMPosted by Brahm
VQ can be a nice alternative if you are OK with interrupting your casting with a weaker primary.


I don't think you're losing anything with pyrogeist at 640% / cast - there are plenty of occasions when you're not going to get 3 bear hits and can throw it out there for it not to be be considered a loss - you only need to cast it once / 11 seconds to maintain VQ anyway.

However with that said - as a 2h'er with only 59 regen, it's not worthwhile for me as it only returns 18 mana.

Typically for low mp farming, I don't need anything but gruesome feast and grave injustice and can just about get away with pierce the veil while running around spamming acid rain but for ubers I'm still experimenting.

Widowmakers are pretty good as it frees up a passive but I'm not that keen on the reduced output.

Lately I've been using spirit barrage / spirit is willing reducing the cost to 64 mana combined with rush of essence, basically when I get low from zombie spam I'll switch to that maintaining 230% output for say 3 casts kicking off 14.7 regen / second over 10 seconds - by that time I'll hit spirit walk (giving 30% mana) and soul harvest which combined adds another 9.8 to the 14.7 over 10 seconds. I can then spam bears again.

I dunno if it's best but I do enjoy having spirit barrage on hand to fire through walls.
Reply Quote
11/27/2012 08:13 AMPosted by Mac
VQ can be a nice alternative if you are OK with interrupting your casting with a weaker primary.


I don't think you're losing anything with pyrogeist at 640% / cast - there are plenty of occasions when you're not going to get 3 bear hits and can throw it out there for it not to be be considered a loss - you only need to cast it once / 11 seconds to maintain VQ anyway.

However with that said - as a 2h'er with only 59 regen, it's not worthwhile for me as it only returns 18 mana.

Typically for low mp farming, I don't need anything but gruesome feast and grave injustice and can just about get away with pierce the veil while running around spamming acid rain but for ubers I'm still experimenting.

Widowmakers are pretty good as it frees up a passive but I'm not that keen on the reduced output.

Lately I've been using spirit barrage / spirit is willing reducing the cost to 64 mana combined with rush of essence, basically when I get low from zombie spam I'll switch to that maintaining 230% output for say 3 casts kicking off 14.7 regen / second over 10 seconds - by that time I'll hit spirit walk (giving 30% mana) and soul harvest which combined adds another 9.8 to the 14.7 over 10 seconds. I can then spam bears again.

I dunno if it's best but I do enjoy having spirit barrage on hand to fire through walls.


Sure I am, I am loosing a spell slot that I could be using for a DOT that will stack w/my main attack or a defensive spell vs a spell that I need to alternate with my main attack, but that is a whole different topic.
Reply Quote

Sure I am, I am loosing a spell slot that I could be using for a DOT that will stack w/my main attack or a defensive spell vs a spell that I need to alternate with my main attack, but that is a whole different topic.


pyrogeist is a DOT and does more than manitou and haunt (depending on rune & target).
Reply Quote

Sure I am, I am loosing a spell slot that I could be using for a DOT that will stack w/my main attack or a defensive spell vs a spell that I need to alternate with my main attack, but that is a whole different topic.


pyrogeist is a DOT and does more than manitou and haunt (depending on rune & target).


Yah I guess technically it is. It's kinda a !@#$ty one though, only 1 column at a time only 6 seconds limited area. More of a hybrid in some ways but I still prefer locust over it due to the set and forget mana return and how the damage spreads on it's own vs having to constantly recast firebombs interrupting my bears btw if it's so great why do you use WM?

The whole other side to VQ is that it only benefits in one way mana just like ROE. I'd rather use spells that give me multiple effects that I can take advantage of unless they are really good at what they do, (like the old vq was) or I don't have a choice.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/27/2012 3:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
Well, you've got what you got. If SA works better for you build, great, you have your skill and gear set. Mine works better with VQ. I use RoT as primary it's +2 sec to VQ. Farming up to mp6 is like "apply rot, spam bears until elite dies", because GF catches up. Also with high attack speed I bet you would not notice if I interrupt my bear spam ever - I don't at least)). If RD then "hold RoT, spam bears, SW - spam bears". Everything dies in 5 sec. With SA I can't do that, it's just slower. I would love VQ to have some additional benefits, but it's the way it is, but it outperforms SA in terms of DPS for me. The simple test is uber mp10 than I had to kill Raka before it enrages, with SA I just die because it does not deliver enough dps for me.
Edited by KyKaH#2425 on 11/27/2012 11:31 PM PST
Reply Quote
I just wish they would have changed VQ to X% mana per skill on CD.

IE 1 skill = 20% 2 skills = 40% (or whatever percentages they wanted).

The old vision quest was simply amazing, the new one is IMO sub par to other mana regeneration skills.
Reply Quote
Mathematically, blood ritual will always outperform spiritual attunement in terms of mana longevity. If you don't believe me, run the numbers yourself.


seriously, dont use words like ALWAYS. you sound like a fool.

and yes, i have run numbers, BR does not ALWAYS outperform SA.

seriously. do you even know how to combo SA off of your gear and skills?

probably not. cause you are too busy running numbers through your TI-82.
Reply Quote

Yah I guess technically it is. It's kinda a !@#$ty one though, only 1 column at a time only 6 seconds limited area. More of a hybrid in some ways but I still prefer locust over it due to the set and forget mana return and how the damage spreads on it's own vs having to constantly recast firebombs interrupting my bears btw if it's so great why do you use WM?


If I use a build for more than a day I get bored - I'm not using WM atm - haven't used VQ / pyrogeist for a while either because my mana regen is too low for the 30% to be worthwhile (only at +14 cos of 2h'er).
Reply Quote
11/28/2012 11:32 AMPosted by SayGa
Mathematically, blood ritual will always outperform spiritual attunement in terms of mana longevity. If you don't believe me, run the numbers yourself.


seriously, dont use words like ALWAYS. you sound like a fool.

and yes, i have run numbers, BR does not ALWAYS outperform SA.

seriously. do you even know how to combo SA off of your gear and skills?

probably not. cause you are too busy running numbers through your TI-82.


Oh SNAPS! Sayga just said you are.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 11/30/2012 10:32 AM PST
Reply Quote
lol i was more or less referring to items such as

Stone of Jordan
Xepharian Amulat
Zunimassa Vision

etc

these in combination with SA, can actually be better for some builds. For higher mana costing things, I dont think it works as well. BR also scales with attack speed.

but ALWAYS... no not even close to true. 20% MORE mana dude + regen, isn't a bad thing.
Reply Quote
Posts: 19
That's not how math works. BR is better for survivability. If you think you were dying quicker on mp8 because of BR, you're absolutely wrong.

There's an old Latin phrase that say events are the teachers of fools. I've never liked it, because like most fools, you don't seem to learn from events either. Rather, you glean the wrong piece of information and won't listen to logical math to help you understand how your perception of the situation couldn't be anything but wrong.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,799
View profile
You are really bumping this thread?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]