Diablo® III

ShockNadoShards (SNS), a CM/WW build [guide]

PH: thanks for the input

I would probably only use a 3.0 APS set for permafreezing ubers, as 2.73 seems to work great in general.In my stash atm are some strongarm bracers that I used for keyrunning last night. 161INT/60AR/9%HP/4.5CC with 432 total armor (and dreadful 1.7% knockback). How breaking is the knockback, because the rest of the bracer seems extremely decent.

yeah, I think I'm moving to a similar idea. Use 3.0 for keyrunning, but drop any illusion of having a high (sheet) DPS. Stack Armor/All res where you can. Phys resists as well.... And just be a tank for ubers. If my mitigation is high enough at 3.0 , I might even be able to run SA instead of EA....In which case, my eDPS will skyrocket. Something to think about.

I had figured the tal plate and vw were the main pieces that needed an upgrade (they were the two pieces that i couldn't find a suitable replacement on the TP for last night, and part of my original archon set). I'm a bit constrained on the tal plate because the attack speed must be 9%, or else I'll get 2.722 APS without lacuni.

Good call on VW though. I completely forgot about getting vit there. Just grabbed a new set for about 5M with about 150str/200int/75vit/635armor. The alternative on the 180str/250int side is a 14M buyout-only 225str/260int/645armor VW for 14M, and that would work out to -14k EHP (to be fair, though, I suppose the negation of damage via diamond skin instead of purely resists/armor for wizards would tip the scales somewhat towards mitigation vs stacking vit), albeit with a bit more damage.

Yeah, that's a pretty solid VW for cheap! The problem with mine is the armor is 663....so I need to either add a ton of STR or find 150+ STR plus 660 armor for it to be an upgrade. There's not that many out there like that. But nice find with the VW. I really like VIT there because you can add 70 VIT for cheap.

And yeah, You have to be cautious with EHP calculations for CM/WW. VIT/life is really over represented in the EHP calculations. When you get hit, the damage is reduced by Dodge, then Armor, then All Resists, then Diamond Skin. If there's anything left over....and its usually a pretty small number....it hits your life pool. If you stack VIT instead of mitigation...then you get hosed. You get hit by a larger damage amount....and yea, it subtracts from a larger life pool, but its hard for LoH to keep up. And take 2 or 3 big hits, and you're dead. Its just found to never be worth it. In other words, sometimes an EHP loss (adding all res or armor (especially all es) while losing VIT) can sometimes actually be a winner. Just stick to ~35k life.
I actually drop to 29k life when I'm in my 3.0 gear, which, admittedly, is a little low. But at the 3.0 breakpoint you're recovering LoH alot quicker also. In my 2.73 gear I'm at 33k or 34k life, which is better.

As far as Nat's ring goes, with my current stats 1 vit (294 EHP) and 1 resist (317 EHP) have nearly the same EHP added. So the 81 vit is comparable to ~75 resists (or 88 if we add in the 130 int). I was struggling to find appropriately-priced AR nat rings, so I had to settle for int/vit/armor rolls (this one cost about 20M).

Once again, I'd be careful with the VIT and EHP calculations. I'd add 75 resists in place of 81 vit any day of the week and twice on sundays if that tradeoff would keep my life at about 35k.

The gloves just showed up on my list as I filtered 9IAS/8CC/armor gloves. Vit+int roll (with phys resist as a decent bonus) seemed like much better bang for buck compared to what I could get filtering with AR (gloves cost 7.25M).

My profile should now show the strongarm bracers and upgraded VW. I'm debating a set of rare bracers (~150int/100vit/60AR/400armor/4CC) to replace the strongarm if the knockback is going to be a big problem. It should run 10-30M depending on the CC level.

My main priorities atm are probably finding a tal plate with armor+resists (or at least armor with high vit/int), and a witching hour with pickup radius (lol). These, and the ias chanto wand, seem to be the only upgrades within reach of my 40-120M budget for now.

EDIT: After looking further into using vit to increase my EHP rather than resist for the Tal plate (they give very similar returns for me right now), I'm going to look at tal plates with 650 armor and 150+ vit. Would be equivalent to about 250 armor + 50 AR, but for less than half the price. I am starting to think that +armor is priced about right, but vit is underpriced as a secondary stat and AR is overpriced.

EDIT2: Upgraded Tal's to 164vit/698armor. Cost about 13.5M. I will use the "savings" to upgrade the topazes to flawless stars. The recent upgrades were probably not the "smoothest" way to enhance EHP, but I am at 357k now with Shocking Aspect, 430k with Force Armor, and 503k with Prismatic. Unfortunately I am now pretty much broke until someone buys my stuff on the TP.

Yeah, that's a pretty good bargin for the armor and high vit. I'd still suggest "spending" some of the vit.....just keep your life to about 35k. Drop some off of other pieces in order to add more armor or all resists (or add CD for that matter. Or a few more points of CC where you can). I'd still be looking to get to 5k armor and 700+ resists. You're on the right trace, and not that far off.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/24/2013 7:15 AM PST

I guess I'd lose 1 AS off of the gloves. Try to find some with armor or STR. You wand to be getting towards 5k Armor. Everything else is nice. I have no idea what the rare pants market is like. I might keep playing there to see if there are any other alternatives to add some armor back in....lose a little VIT if you have to. You're LoH recovers faster at 3.01, so you could do with a little less life (just don't drop below 30k, maybe 32 or 33 would be nice).

Also, consider what get you could use to also play at 2.73. I think you could drop one IAS item completely and only need 5 (or 6) on another item and still hit 2.73 (which is the exact thing that I do with my 1.79 wand). You could probably get monster gloves with no IAS. Maybe some Sage Gesture (huge armor and VIT (not that you need it) with CD and All Res. Or just a rare pair with armor/STR, All res, and CD. You could probably get a nice ring as well, with 5 IAS, CD, CD, All res.

Of course, with the APOC Force and Mempo, you have a different LoH Setup than me, but I used my "free" (non IAS) item for my ammy....got a CC/min-max/etc with 95+ CD to boost my DPS. Think along the same lines. Use the 1.79 Wand to your advantage and use the flexibility.


You aren't kidding! Farming MP10 is a beast....and a 1%'er thing. I'm happy to bet able to TP between 5 elites, collect my stacks, and uber along with a group of friends. I can even preclear 5 stacks if I want to do an uber or key carry. But not farm. I'm happy farming at MP6. Its even more fun really to farm at MP2 because I can just slam through everything so fast.....I think I get more Legendaries that way (versus MP5 or 6).

piehole: if u dont mind me asking how much did u spend on ur blackthorne pants, wh, and tal chest? im trying to get a feel for stats comparable to urs while looking at the ah.

ive also dropped my crit from 46 to 42 while getting over 150 RA and really havent seen much of difference in keep skills active at the 3.0 aps is it really that crucial or just a suggestion?
PH: Yeah I forgot about "expected healing" in my bit about "expected hit points". I think all that really needs to change is that the 800 LoH "minimum" needs to be bumped up to 1000-1200 to handle the increased vit/lower resists. I would definitely love to be able to trade off some of this vit for resists, but I don't feel I can afford to get a beneficial return at the moment. Rather than swapping an item with 80 vit for the same one with 70 resist, the price equivalent would probably be more like getting 50 resist and most/all int on the item gone as well.

I can always just swap diamond skin from shards to shell in the meantime if I see things getting too hairy (the DPS loss is not that significant IIRC, maybe 5-7%?), but even this feels like it'd be overkill.

Back to the topic of perma-freezing though, I don't seem to be able to perma-freeze a single boss (i.e. keywarden, or the "main" yellow elite in a group after his adds are down) at 2.73. Would this be due to casting EB, low crit chance (I have 45%), or is it just not supposed to be possible at 2.73 without evocation and/or cold snap?

To address the possibility of low crit chance, I bought a 4.5CC storm crow. With 45CC and a 79 resist storm crow right now, would I see noticeably better freezing (particularly against single foes) with closer to 50CC? I was not having much better luck with ~50CC just now, but I wanted to check if it was a L2P/inexperience issue.
01/24/2013 10:10 PMPosted by LolBalance
DPS loss is not that significant IIRC, maybe 5-7%

this loss is different for almost everyone depending on latency etc, just test it for your own.

20% loss is possible.
Thank you piehole for the guide.

I always wonder what is CM/WW build as I do a search there is a lot of version. At least now, I can aim for the entry level gearing for this build. Just try it and having fun at the moment with this build.

Tal's was 8M a few weeks ago. Lol. What a joke. It was a 1d11h buy that someone put there by mistake. Didn't know what they had. Its gotta be worth between 30-40M. Its does have low INT and VIT stats, but its also 9 IAS, which is nice. I couldn't/cant afford to to 70 All Res+ with armor, so I was looking in the 30M range. I still look for deals like that where I can buy and flip. Haven't found any like that again, lol.

WH was about 25M quite a few months ago....I don't think that the market has moved much on those. I keep checking it, but its been pretty stable from what I can see. I was also camping out for 9 IAS, 30 All Res, and 40+CD....took awhile for the right deal to come around.

BTJM was less than 20M from what I can remember a few months ago. I'm pretty sure that the market price has gone up on those since then. Also, mine has a nice high LoH roll, which drives up the price.

as for the CC question, you can check out this post I just made yesterday:

42CC with 18 APOC would make me a little nervous, but being at the 3.0 breakpoint returns APOC and LoH and resets cooldowns about 10% faster, on average....so it makes up for the low APOC and CC. Shandlars formula in the bottom of that post refers to wormholeing around and playing with reckless abandon, basically, and surviving with no problem. If you take things slower, let AP refill inbetween enemy encounters, stay at 3.0 breakpoint....then you will probably be OK.That being said, I've never been at 20 APOC and 55 CC to see what's its like! Like Novice points out....if you can afford the high numbers, fine. If you want to (on a budget) sacrifice some CC and APOC and add DPS and play more carefully and take a few deaths....that's fine too.

I wonder the same thing sometimes. Ive never been at 55CC, but I imagine that would help proc cooldowns and AP regeneration....and get FN casted quicker.

That being said, first off, you should always be running evocation and Critical Mass. You need both for it to work well. Droppping evocation probably makes you feel a break point lower. Likewise, cold snap probably makes you feel a breakpoint higher. The consensus is that 2.73 is difficult or impossible to freeze single elites (with CM and evocation). I just moved to 3.0 recently and its certainly better. I'm not going to say that its perfect, certainly. I might not even advocate going to 3.00 if you are pretty happy at 2.73. You have to give up alot of DPS and even some EHP to do it. I bought a 1.79 wand so that it makes it easy(ier) to make the jump to 3.01 (no inna's pants) .... so its an option for me. Its nice for ubers...but I think i'm happier at 2.73 for most things.
those prices are what seems to be the average in my watching the last few days. minus the BTJM which i found mine with 78 ra but only has 334 loh for 25 mill.

im at 25 apoc currently so that might really explain why im not having the trouble sustaining arcane.

the last day or so ive really been thinking of changing my set up similar to shandlers using zuni chest ring and going to mempo since that would still leave me at the 3.0 breakpoint. changing that the price difference on a high ra+armor zuni chest is about what u paid for ur tal chest. the biggest cost is a ias ring. 19 mill or so. if i did that i would have to use my nats which would wash the cc i lose by not adding that to zuni and actually raise it by 1%.
been a few days...however, i changed out my BTJM added AR 59 and 200 armor at a cost of 50mil....been fumbling with the matching puzzle (as I like to call it) with the gear i have in my stash (differing ammys and rings) and with my current gear (i keep looking as everyone else is as well) and it is a balancing act between cc/AR/CD/armor here are the builds I can do all with out any follower selected

BTW, i bought a 1.77 aps OS (850ish dps) for 5 mil just to play around with gear and see what the best i can do....so here are my results: LoH remains constant 887

Chants AS 1.77
86.k dps (best)
48 cc
123 cd
2.81 aps
614 AR (worst)
4563 armor
39.9k life

Chants AS 1.77
83k dps
48 cc
176 cd
2.81 aps
4719 armor (best)
636 AR
34.7k life

Chants AS 1.77
78.4k dps (worst)
49 cc
115 cd
2.81 aps
677 AR (best)
4507 armor
40.5k life

Chants OS 1.65 aps (farmed mp5 with this and works fine)
84.7k dps
49 cc
176 cd
AR 640
2.77 aps
4507 armor
37-39k life (forgot to write this stat down)

I can get to 100k dps and still have decent stats except i drop to 42 cc and to me that is a non-player....so the puzzle continues but I will still look to add AR/CC/Armor versus dps at this point...

I know you are not a huge fan of the Chant's OS; however, which build would you suggest i use as a base to work on the low number....
Hey Pie - You said to contact you here. You were helping me with the SNS build. I spent a lot of money and got the 3.5 CC lacunis with ALL resis and arcane resis. I also bought new sage gestures with 9% IAS as oppsed to the old ones (6%). I dropped the CHD and kept the same stats elsewhere. Check out my char now with the calc tool and let me know what you think.

I also looked for the BTJM with the ALL resis +60 and the cheapest pair is over 100 m

Thanks in advance!
Would you please take a look at my gear and let me know where my best gear upgrades are? I have a low budget - maybe 100mil or so. Any help is appreciated!

I guess I like the 3rd option....worst DPS and best AR, though its tough to exactly tell, without seeing all of the items involved.

And I don't necessarily mind the OS, it just leaves you with fewer gearing options. You have to have IAS everywere....and CC everywhere...and if you want to get more DPS it means CD everywhere. So, you're Ammy, both rings, and gloves are trifecta....before you even thing of adding in any AR or INT or VIT. If you have the gold, or a super nice drop to fund it, or a credit card....sure. Its just easier to do IAS. Once you start to accumulate enough nice pieces you can try to make the jump. I've thought of doing it a few times.

So, you have a few choices to make going forward. You have quite a few IAS points to play with. you can:
  • get a slower weapon with higher DPS
  • keep your weapon and sacrifice some IAS on items to upgrade them, instead of them all being 8/9
  • a little of both
  • I guess i'd also do the math, and see where your OS weapon fits in also. I like trying to get all 9's on everything because it give me more flexibility moving forward. I can do to 3.0 if i want to, no problem. I can also easily to go an OS weapon if I want....and I will....or at least have it as an option, if i can find one cheap enough.
    Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/27/2013 10:09 AM PST
    is 2piece nat's set worth it with a reflection without CC?
    Ive been thinking about get one for my toon, but the ones with crit are too expensive... even de crappy ones :/


    I make a non-CC nats set work with for about 30-40M. Most of that is in the ring. The boots are generally solid. The ring ought to have a lot of res all and int. I got lucky and found one with str and +dmg for under 30M. You could also do other combinations.....but you don't want a junk non-CC ring just for the CC bonus. Boots need 80+ Int and something else. I did 180 dex for about 8M. Could add vit, but it's pricier.
    The better EHP option ( which I did for a long time) was a nice 4.5 CC ring with all res/int/min-max/other stuff and ice climbers with armor/180 int/str/etc. the high int and armor and %life are great for EHP. and it's a much cheaper option. If you could do a 5 or 6cc ring with ice climbers then that's almost as good as the set. I course, a 5+CC ring is expensive too.
    The set allows me to drop a few CC elsewhere and stay at about 47 CC, but I have to pay more elsewhere for health. With ice climbers and rare ring, you have good EHP, and pay more elsewhere for CC. It's all trade offs, depending on what items you have for your toons. I think most higher level wiz go for the set because their Armor and all res is good enough to take the EHP hit.
    Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/27/2013 8:54 AM PST
    Yeah nats set is very flexible. You don't need CC on the Ring, so it can be LoH, AR, or CD, basically you may gain all the necessary CM stats if you use the right Ring. And it's also very budget friendly.

    Keep checking for me in game. You're in your archon gear right now, lol. I'll keep looking for you, here or there.
    Nice job pens...as much as I hate Lacunis, at least you have some CC and alot of All res there.

    I guess the next step, now that you have more IAS on the gloves is to get a trifecta ammy. I think you only need 6 or 7 IAS to reach 2.73. More IAS the better, but this is probably the one place where you'd like to have the most flexibility. You can also start to look into adding CC to your left ring.....and dropping some VIT from somewhere when you need to (just keep life around 35K).

    Another relatively cheap thing you need to do ASAP is to add All res and/or armor to your chest and pants. Yes, I know I've said it before, and you said you've been looking,.....but keep looking. Between your pants and chest you have no all res and no armor. Its relatively cheap to add a ton of armor to one of those places....and wait for the right all res/armor to come along. I happen to know that there's a nice 804 Armor Tal's Chest on the AH right now for under 20M (with nice INT and VIT and Fire resist, I think - lol!). It'd be a cheap upgrade, and get your armor up over 4200. If you're interested, add me as a friend and make me an offer. I'd rather give you a good deal than give tax to Blizzard.
    @piehole - sorry about that. i was low level farming. I will keep my CMWW gear on.
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