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same here, LOVE SNS at about MP7 key farming -- @ 165k unbuffed it gets the job done nicely :-) BEST build for keys, IMHO
heya Karma. Sorry its taken so long to get together! Still, feel free to msg me ingame if you want to chat.
I see several things to work on, in order of importance:
1a) get to 2.73 AS
1b) Chant Will - LoH is doing you nothing. And even if it did, 166 isn't enough to make a difference. Will with AS is the way to go here.
2) armor. that needs to get up toward 5000.
3) <600 All res - not bad....but over 700 would be nicer
4) Bracers. If you're doing rare bracers (see below) they ought to be 5.5 CC+/70All Res/450 armor. Plus or minus a few points. Make them really really worth it for EHP. Add VIT/INT/STR....mine were only 250k, lol, on snipe...I guess. I don't think people pay alot of attention to the rare bracer market....its easy to find a deal sometimes...though the supply can be a little low at times. I'm always looking for an upgrade.
5) Start dropping a little INT where you have to. This is the first thing that I started dropping as I started upgraded gear. Now, of course, I'm trying to add it back in...but that only after meeting the All Res and Armor stats.
Getting to 2.73 is tricky. Since you have 9AS on all your armor (nicely done!) you have an excruciatingly difficult decision to make. You can do what I've done, and add a 1.78 or 1.79 AS Chant Will. This allows you to made 2.73 AS and keep your 2 non-IAS slots (ammy and bracers (or gloves, ring, etc). Of course, these super fast weapons aren't cheap - There's a reason why mine is only 1017 DPS (mine was 40M, and a pretty good buy at that). But, this also allows you to add IAS to these 2 pieces and easily make it to 3.01 (as a fun alternative, for Ubers, etc). The other alternative is to buy a lower IAS Will with alot of DPS. You could go as low as a 1.71 AS Will and make it to 2.73 AS with only a 6 IAS Ammy and keep your rare bracers. Alternatively, you'd need lacunis (preferably with 3.5+CC and 60+ all res, about 50M). Just to add to the confusion, I also have some DPS gloves (no IAS)....and I'll run with lacunis and non-IAS Ammy. All combinations make 2.73. I guess I could also do a non-IAS litany ring....for the All Res and -elite reduction.
TL;DR - 1.78/1.79 AS Will allows you to use 2 non-IAS items, but you'll always be a little on the lower DPS side, but have alot more flexibility. A slower Will gives you more DPS, but you'll only have one non-IAS item to play with.
Some other standard SNS improvements:
VW: 180 INT, 80 VIT, 100+STR, highest armor you can. 'bout 5-20M, depending on STR and ARmor combination. Hold out...look for a good deal. easy quick fix.
Tal's Chest: look for 750 armor (and keep your high VIT) to start with. probably 20M? Eventually you'll want AR/Armor here. 100M or more. definitely long term
BTJM: good AR, very nice LoH, nice INT. Look for AR/All res. probably up towards 100M. also kinda long term.
Nat Ring: I'd drop the min/max....and do AR instead, 60+. Mine has INT, but if you want to do min/max instead...that'd be cool...you have some INT to spare.
Nat boots: This is a nitpick....just be on the lookout for an additional useful affix. Double Dex roll, 150+. Maybe 50+ VIT if you can make it worthwhile for <20M. Keep int around 70.
Force: I'm not sure what %life equates to, but keep an eye out for 120+ VIT Forces with 240+ avg damage. They can be had for as low as 20M....but are usually 40M or more.....if 100+ Vit beats out your %life....I'm guessing that does.
WH: usually i'd advocate AR here,...but you have alot of INT and VIT there.....I wouldn't mess with it.
Taskers: look for ones with +VIT...maybe even +INT. I know for a fact that there are ones on the AH right now with ~80INT and ~120 VIT...cause I'm selling them, 15M or so. If you're interested, (and if they have 9 IAS (I forget if its 8 or 9)) I'll cut you a deal. The +INT and +VIT Taskers are basically the same gloves you have....with a ton more armor (300 vs 650 (including the STR roll)).
Between Armor/STR on Tal's, Taskers, bracers, and VW....that's like 1000 armor right there.
OK...that's all I got. Time to do some work....since I'm at work, lol! Take care!
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/29/2013 8:18 AM PST
I made some additions to the guide.
- fixed math errors in the math section. go figure. I gave a "warning", lol.
- added a link to Aph's gearing guide for specific examples of what to shoot for if looking for gg gear. i have some examples of my own for "bad, good, better, and best" examples for some of the grear.
- added a section at the end (actually the second post) for a more exact example of how to gear a wiz for about 100M and get the stats below. The example uses a 1.72 AS Chant Will, rare bracers (no lacunis), and no Nat's set. It's a pretty basic setup...but its something that you can easily gear up with. Point people toward it if you want.
EHP: 335k (Kieble, with dodge)
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/30/2013 11:34 AM PST
@muz. Thanks for the "eipc" comments. My head almost doesn't fit through the doorway anymore!
Okay so I finally got me a WH that I really wanted, now I'm finally past 2.73 BP (I can totally tell the difference in gameplay), also got an AR Storm Crow for cheap so got me one of those too. Now next few things I want to focus on is my EHP, Life & CC. By getting the WH I had to drop a lot of HP (38k to 33k) which is fine, but I keep feeling like I'm going to die. So I was wondering, should I get Ice Climbers as you mentioned (but with 12MS, I cannot live without it)? Or find massive EHP elsewhere? I was also considering a BT Cross with some CC as it would get me the +100 VIT Bonus. As for CC, the dilemma is should I get Nat's 2set (ring/boots) instead of Ice climbers? I'm just so hesitant on dropping my main hand ring for a CC one because of all the VIT it has. Any advice would be appreciated.
Edited by muz#1471 on 1/30/2013 10:59 PM PST
Yeah, that's a nice WH! I've been looking for a new one....either one like yours (how much did you pay?) or one with 40 AR and armor. Just waiting for a good deal. I'd really like to keep 9%. I have 1% IAS to burn, and I think that'll be on my chest (some day).
I don't know....BTCross has always been a non-starter for me. You'd be getting LoH from SC, BTJM, and Cross.....and that's too much. 8-900 is plenty. Yeah, its nice for EHP, but you give up so much else to have it. Besides, you'd have to get a 10CC cross to increase your overall CC.
But, yeah, that main hand ring has got to go. The set would work, of course, and get you the 7% CC that you need to get to 45 (which is the minimum, really). You could also get a 4-5CC ring and squeeze a few more % out of your gloves (nice, btw) or bracers (rare) or ammy. Consider dropping some of your INT to get it done.
An "out of the box" idea you might want to think about is BTSpurs. They have 600 armor, 12 MS, life regen (not at the top of my list), and -elite damage. You'd get the 100 VIT set bonus. One of your random rolls needs to be all res. The other probably ought to be INT. Could also be VIT,....if you wanna stack it there. I have a nice pair that I picked up for ubers (for the -elite damage) but it'd also be nice for PvP (-elite damage and life regen).
ofc, Ice climbers are nice too. I wore them for a long time. You could even add VIT as one of your random rolls too. I switch all different type of gears, depending if I'm at 2.73 or 3.01 with and without MS from Lacunis (usually always have Nat's set on though)....and I don't miss movement speed much. If you're at higher MP's...you spend more time killing enemies than moving around. in other words, DPS is your limiting factor for efficiency, not MS. Lower MP's it can be a factor, but you should be using Wormhole...and that helps.
Thing with Nat's set is that you're going to spend about 20-30M on a nice ring and about 1M on boots. double dex boots are 10M, VIT boots are even more....and you're still not going to really solve your EHP problem. You will solve your CC problem.
A 4CC, 5 IAS ring almost will solve the CC problem. Maybe a 5CC, 5 IAS ring. Hopefully, with the EHP gains from Ice Climbers you can drop the VIT from the ring.
Also keep in mind, as you inch toward 5k armor and 800 all res, you'll become less reliant on VIT and LoH. An 800 armor Tal Rashy would go quite aways toward that. I just sold mine a few days ago for 14M, or something like that. Its a no brainer upgrade with, surprisingly, no compromises (well, you'll lose lightning resists and health globes. Actually losing the lightning resists might be a little tough, lol! But you'd be better served with +250 armor against all enemies than just against the lightning affix).
One last option to consider, since your All Res is in pretty good shape (i just finally got to 700....which has been really, really tough. 800 is almost a pipe dream), is get a ring like 4 CC, 5 IAS, and 70 All Res. Then you could switch to a CC StormCrow (3CC is like 4M, 4 CC is closer to 10M. I have no idea what the ring would cost). You'd essentially move All Res from SC to ring, and gain 7 or 8 CC. I've never put All Res on my gloves (personal preference, I guess. I've always done T&T for the EHP, or rare with CD) so I've never had that option.
OK...I've probably given you more than enough to thing about. Let me know what you decide!
I've actually been considering the BT amulet myself (just bought a 7CC with 9ias/30 avg dmg for 25mil). I'd lose 1.5% CC over my current amulet, but it would free up the pant slot for depth diggers, which give much better EHP for the buck vs BTJM imo
AH search shows ~580armor/75AR/2socket/180int depth diggers for about 6-10mil.
Hi PieHole, thank you for this wonderful guide! I have put together a set for 27 million after days of camping the auction house looking for deals, since I am cheap and have never had more than 15 million on me at any given time. I have the following stats unbuffed:
Not too bad for being super cheap, I suppose, but I feel like I am not doing that great at locking down elites. I need some more paragon levels to get more intelligence, too, as that seems a little low.
So now I have about 2mil left, and feeling a bit broke. I am thinking about dropping down to maybe the 2.5 breakpoint, which means I could have higher crit and all resist. But everything I'm reading suggests that's a bad idea. What do you think?
Edited by Hope#1846 on 1/31/2013 9:19 PM PST
Not bad, for cheap really! Good armor, decent resists, decent CC, good AS. Good health and LoH.
You should be locking down elites just as good as me, (as freezing really only depends on AS and CC) even without cold snap. Skill, expectations, and latency are the other factors.
skill - not a ton of skill....just be sure all of your twister are sitting and proc'ing on enemies. Anytime you can stack enemies on top of each other it's a bonus....each twister can proc off of both enemies. Stacking 2 ubers vertically on top of each other is a magical thing. If they are side-by-side and you have to split your twister up its not as good. Succubusses, the birds in the field of slaughter, and the fire shammans....They will kite you, and there's little you can do about it - being at 3.01 is better. If you can get 2 or three together you have a better chance to lock them down. Single elites of the the couple I just mentioned, will always elude you. That's just the way it is. Most of the normal since elites you can handle. You might just ahve to lower expectations a bit. Latency can have an effect on freezing. If you are over 200 latency, then 3.0 can feel like 2.73. And maybe 2.73 can feel worst than that.
My guess is you just need to temper expectations.
If your CC is at 46.5, that's not too bad. I'm at 46 with my current gear. More CC is better, but dropping down to 2.5 and adding more CC isn't going to get you anywhere...unless you're in the 60+ range. (sloracks with +CC to Twisters, or Maria's kleidescope with +CC to twisters, is how you can get your effective CC that high). But that just gets you to feel like 2.73 when you're only at 2.5.
The thing that might really help you out is to move All Res onto your rings. Then you can afford to get a Witching Hour (even with no All Res, if you can't afford it) and get a nice set of rare bracers....with 5+CC (and 70+ all res, and armor, and VIT/INT - they're really cheap). That will help with your CC problem. Not that its a problem, per se....but it'll help. And you'll need a WH eventually anyway. Just start out with 25 or 30 All Res on bit items when you find a good deal...look at me...I only have 30-40 on my Tal Rashy, BTJM, and WH. I'll upgrade eventually....but its so expensive.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 2/1/2013 8:26 AM PST
Thank you again PieHole! I do have a bracer that I snagged for 100k which is 78 int, 82 vit, 42 cold resist, 77 resist all and 6% crit (but no armor). I will look into a Witching Hour, but they are indeed expensive. The Lacuni's I have now were 700k. :P
I think my expectations are indeed a little high. I play with my husband's monk, and I was hoping to be able to lock things down a bit better. I will keep at it and maybe get better at dealing with the different affixes, too. :)
Permafreeze was indeed possible in like 1.03....but since the WW proc nerf as well as the crowd control nerf, its been more difficult. And really tough for single elites - unless you get to the 3.01 or 3.3-something breakpoint.
Check out this guy, Charlatan, at 3.38 AS:
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 2/1/2013 10:16 AM PST
So I managed to snag a Witching Hour with armor and good crit damage for 10mil. My aps is 2.74, and now my DPS is up by quite a bit to 70k, with unbuffed crit at 52.50%. My all-resist is down to 556, my armor is 4499, and my health is 33k. Was this an okay trade-off?
I've just come back after having taken a 5 month break and just leveled a wizard to 60. Reading this thread makes me feel like I've missed some sort of language or math class that would make sense of most of the terms I'm seeing here. =P
Anyway, I'm sitting at 2.72 aps with 20 million gold left, not sure what I can do to get myself that .01 extra to get to the 2.73. Does it really make that huge of a difference? I can do mp5 or 6, but I feel much more comfortable doing mp1 right now. I know my armor is a little bit low too, not sure what I'm going to be able to do about that until I make some more gold though.
Hey Piehole...Read your guide extensively but I am stuck on what to upgrade next item/stat wise and I was wondering if you could lend me some advice: Here is my stats and armory:
Here is a link to my profile:
And my stats are as follows:
4672 armor (60.90% dmg reduction)
2.73 attack speed
39% crit chance
152% crit dmg
physical res: 517
cold res: 601
fire res: 517
lit res: 638
psn res: 517
arcane res: 517
Hey guys, my main was a WD. Now I am a blizzard wizard, how hard is it to switch gears over to SNS? from what I read in the guide on the first page, I need to get a blackthorn pant for loh and a chantodo set with apoc? Is there anything key items I need? I am noob wizard.
I think It'll be a good trade off (Rare belt and Lacunis, for Armor WH and rare bracers) once you get a better set of bracers. Something like 450+ Armor, INT, VIT (100+?), close to max all res, and 4.5 CC (if you stay in the high 40's for CC you'll be fine). You can probably find some for cheep (<1M) if you're patient. I think I even have an extra pair im not using.....feel free to add me in game. Then you'll be looking great! You will have dropped I guess about 30 AR and some life for about 10K DPS and 6CC - I think that's pretty good. And besides, you needed to get a WH at some point...might as well get one now and gear around it. Just keep an eye out for a AR one (but even 30 AR, like mine, is running 15M+).
Just keep adding all res. Right ring maybe? 65ARA, 4CC, 9 IAS, 50 VIT (or whatever you need to stay at 2.73). Maybe that's asking too much....i can't see the AH right now.
I'm not going to say that its gonna knock your socks off being at 2.73....but I can tell when I drop below (swapping gear...and I accidently have the wrong combination and am below the breakpoint). Things freeze differently, the windeup (from when you first freeze, to when you get the second freeze off (related to the LoH and APOC returns and cooldown procs in between) is not as smooth.....enemies move before you get the second freeze off. LoH is slower, so affixes are more deadly. Its kind of a subtle combination of alot of things....and adds up to making a difference. I presume that the 2.72 that you are hitting is with enchantress? Or else you're only at 2.68.
But besides the breakpoint, CC is just as integral really. 45CC is the benchmark suggested along with 2.73. (yes, I'm aware that I'm at 42CC right now...not following my own suggestions!!) You need CC to proc the cooldown for frost nova through CM.....or else you won't be freezing well enough.
Here are some suggestions:
You have nats ring, get nats boots for the 7 CC bonus. That's pretty much the only reason for doing the set. Find some with like 70 INT. These are pretty basic and cheap (~1-2M). Any upgrade past that (VIT, 170 Dex, etc - puts you in the 8-10M+ range). That's would get you to 41%.
Right ring needs to be like 9 IAS, 4 CC, 65+ All Res, VIT or % life. That gets you to 45%CC.
Bracers: if you're doing rare bracers (which I love) make it worth it for EHP. Try 450 Armor, 5 CC, 70 All res, 70 VIT. These should be cheap...maybe even under 1M sometimes. Add in INT if you can or want.
BTJM: yours arent bad....but try to find Armor/AR ones. You should be able to get 700 armor with 50 all res for under 20M. The market if pretty soft for these now adays. Keep 400+ LoH. They're harder to come by for a good deal....but worth the wait.
INT isn't the biggest priority. Getting to 2.73 with 45CC and 4500 armor should be your main goal right now. Nice resists!....try to maintain it.
Oh, obviously, 9 IAS on Tal's chest would get you that one extra IAS you need (to get to 2.73 with enchantress?). If you want to play in a group (and make 2.73), you'd need to add IAS to your amulet, which is costly (for trifecta). Or do a CC/IAS ammy with alot of min/max damage and INT to make up (some of) the loss of CD.
In the meanwhile...you could always buy a cheap IAS/CC ammy (like 6 IAS and 8 CC) and see what being at 2.73 feels like. You'll drop a ton of DPS, but you can get the "feel" for the difference. But not until you get to 45CC...that's the real priority for you.
Lots of fantastic advice, thanks very much!
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