Diablo® III

Loot farming efficiency: MP7 vs MP3

https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Valah-2495/hero/706677

Hi all,

I'm at the stage where I capped MF and don't care about paragon level much.

Wondering where should I spend time farming.

I usually do modified Alkhaizer run:
    Arreat Core
    ToD1
    Arreat1
    Arreat2
    Rakis
    Fields of Slaughter
    Keep2
    Skycrown


MP7 SNS(e) takes 40 mins, MP3 tele Archon takes about 20 mins, MP0 blizzard wormhole takes 10-15 mins.

I can't decide which one's more efficient loot wise. Keep in mind I don't care about experience and got max MF.

My profile is on the EU servers:
https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Valah-2495/hero/706677
Edited by Valah#2495 on 12/4/2012 9:26 AM PST
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For MP7 to be more loot/time than MP3 at 20 minutes, and assuming you kill the same number of mobs in each difficulty, you need to clear MP7 in less than 35.5 minutes. Maybe if you dropped to MP6?
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Well, just using rough calculations:

You'd have 22% more MF (550% vs. 450% @ 5NV)
You'd get 30% more "extra loot" drops (considering that MP0 is 100% of normal loot, MP3 is 130% and MP7 is 170%)

Leaving you 59.8% more loot in 100% more time.
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If farming for efficiency I would suggest that anything over MP0-MP3 is probably wasting your time depending on your dps.
You could do 2 runs of MP3 in the same time it takes to do MP7. MP7's bonus XP + GF/MF isn't twice MP3. Especially if you already had a base GF/MF which at plvl 90, you're wasting your time.

Edit: As far as a fun factor is concerned, I push the MP level as high as I can. Tearing through mobs is fun for about 5 mins. Then I get bored.
Edited by shine#1756 on 12/4/2012 9:39 AM PST
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But do you guys take loot quality into account? 100 extra MF makes 6 stat rare drops more likely... Assuming rare loot was not worthless... I only pick i63 armour, jewellery and 1h weapons anyway....
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Shelendil had a good point. MP6 takes around 30 minutes, but I seem to get less Legendary/Set drops.

Of course legendary drop rates are so far apart that drop tables are almost impossible to make....
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Regardless of what your get for your "actuals" when looting at legendary loot, the "expected" values are what you should base your planning on, if you're really looking to optimize.

As far as loot quality, you'll get less chaff on MP6/7, but all yellow loot is longshot material as it is. I already tend to ignore bracers, belts and shoulders, regardless of ilvl, and I gave up on offhands of all sorts a while ago. I still pick up 2h, but I admit it's dumb. Really what I want are ilvl 61+ 1h's (preferably 63, but even 61's can be good money potentiall), jewelry, gloves (rare is still often best) and legends.

@ shine - I like a change now and again, but blasting demons into chunks somehow never gets old.
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It's quite easy.
At the mf cap, every additional MP level adds around 12% total "loot quality", accounting for the "bonus item" and mf over the cap. Can you raise one MP level and not increase run duration above 12% ?
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@Maysrill
Agree with you, just wanst sure what the 'expected' loot for each MP level is.
Rare bracers, belts and shoulders prices are into the ground since lacuni, witching and vile wards were introduced. I should probably stop collecting those too. Not worth iding 1000 belts only to get one that sells for 10 mil.
i61+ 1h Weapons, jewellery and gloves are almost the only rares worth picking.

@Krali
Interesting number you got there. Who did the study that came up with the 12%?
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Shelendil had a good point. MP6 takes around 30 minutes, but I seem to get less Legendary/Set drops.

Of course legendary drop rates are so far apart that drop tables are almost impossible to make....


It's not something you can do by estimation; the variance is too large. Increasing bonus items from 17% to 59% actually increases the total drops by 150.2%. Taken with the increases magic find, legendaries per run increases from 1.21 to 2.14. That gives a ratio of 1.77 which I multiplied by your 20 minutes to get 35.5 minutes. Now, the exact numbers of drops could be wrong as there are a few assumptions about how magic find works and the number of elites killed (no bonus items from these), but the ratios should cancel out these inaccuracies, so I believe the times are correct.
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Based on the timings above the legendary / time is even between mp7 and mp3. If you have max mf, mp7 is around a 3.5% more 6 affix chance than mp3. MP3 is 30% more rares / time on mp3 which works out to a 26% more 6 affix / time. So mp3 is the winner. http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

"I only pick i63 armour, jewellery and 1h weapons anywa"
I pickup 58 armor pieces, only difference is base armor in mp1+.

MP3 alkaizer run + keep3 partial can be done in ~15mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr3qRuMZlP8&list=PLEpvECUUdq09oY9nV67MB6IJF2VH-6SWv&feature=plpp_play_all
Reply Quote
Based on the timings above the legendary / time is even between mp7 and mp3. If you have max mf, mp7 is around a 3.5% more 6 affix chance than mp3. MP3 is 30% more rares / time on mp3 which works out to a 26% more 6 affix / time. So mp3 is the winner. http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

"I only pick i63 armour, jewellery and 1h weapons anywa"
I pickup 58 armor pieces, only difference is base armor in mp1+.

MP3 alkaizer run + keep3 partial can be done in ~15mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr3qRuMZlP8&list=PLEpvECUUdq09oY9nV67MB6IJF2VH-6SWv&feature=plpp_play_all


I'm not following. 450 MF gives a drop rate of x * (1 + 450/100). 550 MF gives a drop rate of x * (1 + 550/100). This is an increase (1 +550/100)/(1 + 450/100) = 18.2% and remains constant regardless of the base drop rate, x. It applies just as well to 6-affix rares as it does to legendaries. Where do you get 3.5%?
Edited by Shelendil#1520 on 12/4/2012 12:45 PM PST
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Based on the timings above the legendary / time is even between mp7 and mp3. If you have max mf, mp7 is around a 3.5% more 6 affix chance than mp3. MP3 is 30% more rares / time on mp3 which works out to a 26% more 6 affix / time. So mp3 is the winner. http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

"I only pick i63 armour, jewellery and 1h weapons anywa"
I pickup 58 armor pieces, only difference is base armor in mp1+.

MP3 alkaizer run + keep3 partial can be done in ~15mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr3qRuMZlP8&list=PLEpvECUUdq09oY9nV67MB6IJF2VH-6SWv&feature=plpp_play_all


I'm not following. 450 MF gives a drop rate of x * (1 + 450/100). 550 MF gives a drop rate of x * (1 + 550/100). This is an increase (1 +550/100)/(1 + 450/100) = 18.2% and remains constant regardless of the base drop rate, x. It applies just as well to 6-affix rares as it does to legendaries. Where do you get 3.5%?

Things to consider:
Concerning Extra drop:
White mobs have a base 30% chance to drop. If they pass that they have a 33% chance to drop an item. So mp5 is 2x whites drops but for a ~4x more hp to burn away (for loot/hp to be equal mf would have to 2x between mp1 and mp5). So mp10 gives x4 whites drops for a ~22 more hp to burn away (for loot/hp to be equal mf would need be 5.5x greater in mp10 then 1). Now higher mp starts becoming good when you have a dps level that compensates for this.

Concerning 6-affix:
On mp1 you have 400mf (11.50)
On mp10 you have 625mf ~(12.3625) +7.5% I think this is more around +6.5% because the act 3 alkaizer focus's on whites compared to act 1, 2 runs and thus does not benefit affix buff on the guaranteed drop.

"
MF %6A %5A %4A
0 10.28 30.52 59.21
250 11.02 31.89 57.09
400 11.50 32.78 55.72
1000 13.80 36.84 49.36
"
"
The effect that MF has on increasing the number of possible affixes on rare items appears to be minimal and close to neglible for the standard elite drops. It does, however, appear to have a prominent effect on the NV rare drop.
"
source:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

I usually simplify the problem into: each mp = 40% more hp, 20% more legendary, 10% more rare.
Edited by RulerEric#1854 on 12/4/2012 2:02 PM PST
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@RulerEric
Just watched both your recordings. Impressive, I used to play SC/Healing Blades build in 1.0.4. You've added Scramble to that and it seems to work great. I'll give it a try.
As an Archon though, I add Crater 1, Rakis Crossing and Scycrown and do that in 20 minutes.
I'm aware all items can roll ilvl63 afixes, but I thought anything below ilvl63 has lower possible minimum stat values, which makes a good roll less likely. High base armour can also add significant value to an item. This is the reason I only pick out ilvl63 armour. This excludes Gloves of course (just remembered I saw a 180int/10cc/30cd/9as ilvl58 pair of gloves on AH).

@Shelendil
To be perfectly honest, I don't follow on both of your numbers. I dont get why you think MP7 legendary drop rate is 1.77 times that of MP3. If that was the case, I might just invest a bit more into my SNS gear and to MP7 in 35 minutes or less.
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@RulerEric
Just watched both your recordings. Impressive, I used to play SC/Healing Blades build in 1.0.4. You've added Scramble to that and it seems to work great. I'll give it a try.
As an Archon though, I add Crater 1, Rakis Crossing and Scycrown and do that in 20 minutes.
I'm aware all items can roll ilvl63 afixes, but I thought anything below ilvl63 has lower possible minimum stat values, which makes a good roll less likely. High base armour can also add significant value to an item. This is the reason I only pick out ilvl63 armour. This excludes Gloves of course (just remembered I saw a 180int/10cc/30cd/9as ilvl58 pair of gloves on AH).

@Shelendil
To be perfectly honest, I don't follow on both of your numbers. I dont get why you think MP7 legendary drop rate is 1.77 times that of MP3. If that was the case, I might just invest a bit more into my SNS gear and to MP7 in 35 minutes or less.

The leg drop rate is around double however you have alot more hp to burn.

I just did a 22mins MP3 run almost the same route:
core
td1
arreat 1 backwards
tc1 peek
arreat 2 backwards to deadend
rakkis backwards
fields
keep2
skycrown
stonefront stop 3/4 at kw

I feel its better then archon because I can reuse the gear to do wicked wind CM in MP6+. While archon generally use's zun set, depth diggers, crit dmg stacking, etc. Also archon is limited to certain zones. I can run other route and play better in groups.
Elite dense zones in act2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVREsAOvvo
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@RulerEric
I just did my usual run using your SC/HealingBlades/Scramble build in 23 minutes:
    Core
    ToD1
    Arreat1 bacwards
    Arreat2 forwards
    Rakis backwards
    Fields of Slaughter
    Keep2
    Skycrown

I have to say I loved it. For a first time and without optimized gear, it went well.
Pros: Constantly moving forwards, good synergies between SC/Blades/Prodigy, can use most of my Archon gear which is a lot higher DPS, Wormhole rules.
Cons: died a few times to odd elite combos like FireChains/Cold bombs. Missing Archon defenses or DS.

I must admit that maintaining 3 sets of equip (Archon, SNS, Blizzhole) is expensive. However I just get bored playing the same build all the time, being able to switch between them is what keeps me in the game.
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12/04/2012 09:31 AMPosted by Shelendil
For MP7 to be more loot/time than MP3 at 20 minutes, and assuming you kill the same number of mobs in each difficulty, you need to clear MP7 in less than 35.5 minutes. Maybe if you dropped to MP6?


Somehow my calcs favor high MP a bit more than yours does. We appear to do the same calculation however. What assumption do you make for # of mobs in a run? I use 15 Elite packs and 900 White mobs.

At max MF that would mean MP7 run would net 2.07x more legendaries relative to an exactly equal MP3 run. That's 41.4 minutes, and he's better doing MP7 in 40 minutes than MP3 in 20 minutes by a negligable margin.
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 12/4/2012 3:20 PM PST
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12/04/2012 03:19 PMPosted by Shandlar
For MP7 to be more loot/time than MP3 at 20 minutes, and assuming you kill the same number of mobs in each difficulty, you need to clear MP7 in less than 35.5 minutes. Maybe if you dropped to MP6?


Somehow my calcs favor high MP a bit more than yours does. We appear to do the same calculation however. What assumption do you make for # of mobs in a run? I use 15 Elite packs and 900 White mobs.

At max MF that would mean MP7 run would net 2.07x more legendaries relative to an exactly equal MP3 run. That's 41.4 minutes, and he's better doing MP7 in 40 minutes than MP3 in 20 minutes by a negligable margin.

but the rares!
12/04/2012 11:34 AMPosted by RulerEric
Based on the timings above the legendary / time is even between mp7 and mp3. If you have max mf, mp7 is around a 3.5% more 6 affix chance than mp3. MP3 is 30% more rares / time on mp3 which works out to a 26% more 6 affix / time. So mp3 is the winner.


@RulerEric
I just did my usual run using your SC/HealingBlades/Scramble build in 23 minutes:
    Core
    ToD1
    Arreat1 bacwards
    Arreat2 forwards
    Rakis backwards
    Fields of Slaughter
    Keep2
    Skycrown

I have to say I loved it. For a first time and without optimized gear, it went well.
Pros: Constantly moving forwards, good synergies between SC/Blades/Prodigy, can use most of my Archon gear which is a lot higher DPS, Wormhole rules.
Cons: died a few times to odd elite combos like FireChains/Cold bombs. Missing Archon defenses or DS.

I must admit that maintaining 3 sets of equip (Archon, SNS, Blizzhole) is expensive. However I just get bored playing the same build all the time, being able to switch between them is what keeps me in the game.

Have not really tested prodify. I use coldblood with cold tal ammy. And i use dynamo/glasscannon. Recently more glasscannon.

Just did an act2 run using glasscannon/cold blood and a blades soj.
I get like 60% more rares running act2 vault, mine, winds,oasis than any route on act3.
Its top listed here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7199910399?page=1#1
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Things to consider:
Concerning Extra drop:
White mobs have a base 30% chance to drop. If they pass that they have a 33% chance to drop an item.


This is where I disagree.

A monster has a roughly 30% chance to drop loot: gold, potion, tome, or gear. I know mobs have differing loot tables, but it may be fair enough to take this one number as an approximation.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794983614#7

However, the bonus loot will always be a piece of gear.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6893750712#12

I downloaded the spreadsheet from the post you link, but I believe its treatment of bonus items to be flawed because it is overlooking the second part. I think it is underestimating the number of bonus items by a significant amount, especially at higher MP levels.
Edited by Shelendil#1520 on 12/4/2012 4:40 PM PST
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For MP7 to be more loot/time than MP3 at 20 minutes, and assuming you kill the same number of mobs in each difficulty, you need to clear MP7 in less than 35.5 minutes. Maybe if you dropped to MP6?


Somehow my calcs favor high MP a bit more than yours does. We appear to do the same calculation however. What assumption do you make for # of mobs in a run? I use 15 Elite packs and 900 White mobs.

At max MF that would mean MP7 run would net 2.07x more legendaries relative to an exactly equal MP3 run. That's 41.4 minutes, and he's better doing MP7 in 40 minutes than MP3 in 20 minutes by a negligable margin.


Where I started was by doing a run at MP0 and counting the number of gear drops from elites and drops from whites. This is definitely inexact, but so is assuming a 30% drop rate of items from every white mob. I don't know which is more accurate. I'm not sure we can pinpoint which MP level is best without access to Blizzard's loot tables or collecting enough data to be statistically confident.
Edited by Shelendil#1520 on 12/4/2012 4:57 PM PST
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