Diablo® III

Is Nats really the way to go?

Most Monks seem to go Nats set eventually, but lately I've been wondering if that's really the best way to go. It might just be chasing paper DPS.

Basically, the other option seems to be Lacuni Prowlers/Ice climbers/SoJ. Ice climbers basically have 7 to 8 affix rolls on them, and for many Monks, removing the Nats ring doesn't even lower their DPS 30%. You're ahead not even taking into account SoJs other two bonuses to your damage.

Not even sure if lacuni's are the optimal way to get that 12%MS, but I'm guessing they are.

I'm not quite regretting the nearly 30M I spent on my Nats set, but I'm starting to wonder if the appeal really is more due to the DPS on papet. I mean even on MP 10, 100K DPS is sufficient for white enemies, so it's elite damage that really matters.

For you people prepping for PvP, I'm assuming other players will count as "elite", but I guess the verdict is out on that.

Thoughts?
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Nats gives so much dps man I can do any mp so I have to say nats
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yeah, nat' sets are totally worth it. Especially if you're on a budget.

4M for 7 crit, 12 movement speed, 200ish dex, 9ias, 80+ resist, possibility of some vit and average damage IS A STEAL
Edited by scrapz#1142 on 12/5/2012 4:05 PM PST
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Nats ring+boots combo is the only way to go in my opinion especially if you get the ring with crit chance which will at the very least add 10% crit chance plus the other stats that it rolls which is huge for monks.
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Depends on your build. If you're hellbent on taking your DPS as high as it would go, then Nats is a must. If your focus leans more towards tankiness or even balanced game play, then Natalya may not be the optimal solution for you. I've been toying with the idea for a while and finally decided against it, mostly because of the two following reasons:

1. For a tremendous damage boost you will want the ring with at least min CC and unfortunately those cost arm and leg, even if you're not picky about the remaining 2 random affixes. If you are going to depend only on the 7% CC from the set bonus, you may be better off with some good rare ring that has comparable AS and Dex and can go as high as 6% CC on its own, and then be free to do as you please in the boots department.

2. Nats boots can roll some wicked Dex and AR, plus they come with a guaranteed 12% MS, but they have only 1 random affix, which means that in most cases you'll be hard pressed to choose between second resist and Vit. And because of the high demand from fellow Monks, elemental resist Nats boots are quite costly, plus you'll be competing with everyone else (including DHs) for the Vit ones. At the same time, decent rare pair with exactly same stats as Natalya's plus Vit AND elemental resist can be obtained for only few mils.
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Lately, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Monks would see an increase in their effective DPS if they switched their nats ring to a solid SoJ.

Hope you don't mind scrapz, but I'm going to use your Monk as an example. He has a very nice Nats with 4% CC. I plug his character into d3up and just remove the ring. His DPS drops a lot. From 118K to 92.5K.

But 92.5 x 1.30 = 120.25.

So he's ahead against elites with a SoJ. Now, add in +6% bonus damage and 12% SW damage, and he's even better off. I haven't even upgraded his boots to ice climbers yet.

Maybe Nats boots + helm, inna's chest and pants would be the DPS maxing way to go instead of Ice Climbers. I don't know. (I really like the ice climbers though, that's one of the things that started me down this train of thought). I just feel that if your not using an SoJ at the top level, you're missing out.
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Lately, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Monks would see an increase in their effective DPS if they switched their nats ring to a solid SoJ.

Hope you don't mind scrapz, but I'm going to use your Monk as an example. He has a very nice Nats with 4% CC. I plug his character into d3up and just remove the ring. His DPS drops a lot. From 118K to 92.5K.

But 92.5 x 1.30 = 120.25.

So he's ahead against elites with a SoJ. Now, add in +6% bonus damage and 12% SW damage, and he's even better off. I haven't even upgraded his boots to ice climbers yet.

Maybe Nats boots + helm, inna's chest and pants would be the DPS maxing way to go instead of Ice Climbers. I don't know. (I really like the ice climbers though, that's one of the things that started me down this train of thought). I just feel that if your not using an SoJ at the top level, you're missing out.


All good but the profile shown is my test pvp gear. Here is my true profile:
http://d3up.com/b/68542.
My nat's set definitely increases my dmg by more then 40k, not accounting in the 7+ crit chance.. CC damage scales the rest of your attack modifiers also...

Nat's set.
You calculations don't include +11 percent crit which:
1. procs a !@#$ ton of tornadoes
2. lands a ton more crit hits.
3. more crits = higher life steal
4. Cost 4m for 7+crit damage, 9ias, and defensive stats

SOJ:
1. Loss of IAS = loss of speed of sustain, loss of spirit regen, slower sw attacks and procs.
2. damage only applies to elites
3. offer 0 defensive stats
4. loses 20-30 percent of your damage to regular mobs which drastically reduces your lifesteal
5. Useless in pvp
6. Cost more then 4m..

Iceclimbers /w movement speed will cost a !@#$ ton for even a decent one.
Edited by scrapz#1142 on 12/5/2012 5:56 PM PST
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Maybe Nats boots + helm, inna's chest and pants would be the DPS maxing way to go instead of Ice Climbers. I don't know. (I really like the ice climbers though, that's one of the things that started me down this train of thought). I just feel that if your not using an SoJ at the top level, you're missing out.


Nat's helm is outright terrible - unlike Inna's, it has no guaranteed CC and even if you dish out the cash for one that has some CC, you'll be left with only one randon affix, which will be a toss between Vit and resist.

If you want to skip the Spirit Stone, you can definitely go for Inna's chest and pants and if opting to forego the Natalya completely, you can still achieve comparable results with crit Mempo and some nice Ice Climbers. As you pointed out - a good SoJ is a quite viable alternative to Nat's ring, so if you want to throw one of these in the mix, I'm sure you'll come way ahead compared to Natalya.

Of course, you are going to need quite the budget to put such combo together. If you have to be realistic, I guess the dilemma still stands which one or two good pieces to choose and then supplement the rest of your gear with some flexible rares, to achieve some decent result...
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I think that the only way that the Nats set is really worth it is if you get the ring with ChC, which I anticipate would cost an arm and a leg (gold I am not even close to having). Without it, I would think you can get an equivalent rare with 6% ChC (only losing out on 1% ChC) with a decent pair of rare boots that will give you the MS, and all the other good stuff for a fraction of the price. I might be wrong on this, as I haven't taken a close look for this stuff in AH.

In terms of what is given up defensively, I think compensation is manageable but again, probably only worth it if you get the ring with come ChC on it.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/5/2012 6:23 PM PST
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yeah, nat' sets are totally worth it. Especially if you're on a budget.

4M for 7 crit, 12 movement speed, 200ish dex, 9ias, 80+ resist, possibility of some vit and average damage IS A STEAL


Well said. I second this statement. Well worth the 3.6 mil I spent.
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I think that the only way that the Nats set is really worth it is if you get the ring with ChC, which I anticipate would cost an arm and a leg (gold I am not even close to having). Without it, I would think you can get an equivalent rare with 6% ChC (only losing out on 1% ChC) with a decent pair of rare boots that will give you the MS, and all the other good stuff for a fraction of the price. I might be wrong on this, as I haven't taken a close look for this stuff in AH.

In terms of what is given up defensively, I think compensation is manageable but again, probably only worth it if you get the ring with come ChC on it.


I use to think that a nat's without CC wasn't worth it. I was wrong.

With the way they are prices today. I think they are the best value for money for budget builds
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I use to think that a nat's without CC wasn't worth it. I was wrong.

With the way they are prices today. I think they are the best value for money for budget builds

OKay. I'm gonna check AH when I get home tonight. Taking your word for it! :)
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please note that damage bonus vs elite don't apply to sweeping wind (bug or intended i dont know)... so you have to consider this when you decide to go with SoJ over nat ring.
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Yah, nats is BIS, but the market is tightly controlled. If your not going for over 150k dps then your probably better off bidding for rares.
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why not use both?

I feel Nat's set allows for more streamlined progression.

New 60's can pick it up cheaply and put that 7% towards cyclone's 30% minimum. With Inna's pants, you'll still get 24 movespeed. This option is not available for lacuni's/ice climbers/soj... a crit lacuni's or movespeed ice climbers costs an arm and a leg. Even then, you would need crit chance in every other slot.

As you progress, you can make gradual upgrades to your Nat's parts... getting 170 dex boots, or average damage ring... again this option is not available to the other setup.

For end game, Nat's Ring is still a viable option and has enough rolls to cover any/all of your characters needs... 13% crit chance is ridiculous. At level 100, you can switch out your hellfire for an SOJ.

The 9IAS from lacuni's and extra socket from ice climbers is about a 150 dex equivalent. 7% crit from Nat's set bonus is about the same as that. Yes, an ice climbers offers better defensive stats, but really it's needed to cover lacuni's defensive shortcomings.

In terms of perfect rolls, I think the two combos are too close to call, but Nat's set is definitely easier to progress with.
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@scrapz
So, numbers time...

According to d3up, just removing the ring from you hand in that profile brings you from 190.9K to 147.1K. 147.1 x 1.3 = 191.23. Again, I haven't factored 6% (which brings you over 202K DPS against elites) or thw +SW damage, which affects everyone and probably puts you in he range of upto effectively 215K dps against elites (and 165K vs everything else).

Do you really need 190K damage against trash? I feel like the trade off to get another 25K vs elites is worth it. At least for me, where my goal is to play on higher MP.

1. procs a !@#$ ton of tornadoes
2. lands a ton more crit hits.
3. more crits = higher life steal
4. Cost 4m for 7+crit damage, 9ias, and defensive stats


I'm not concerned about landing more crits, mostly, except for the tornadoes. I believe that monks do get to double dip on crit damage (meaning the sweeping winds can crit) so that may be a big concern.

More damage = more life steal. You don't need more life steal vs trash, you need it vs elites, which the SoJ gives.

As for price, a 28%/6% cold/8% SW is on the auction house for 25M right now. Your ring with 4% CC (the one all these comparisons are being done with) is worth about 100M on the auction house right now.

SOJ: 1. Loss of IAS = loss of speed of sustain, loss of spirit regen, slower sw attacks and procs.
2. damage only applies to elites
3. offer 0 defensive stats
4. loses 20-30 percent of your damage to regular mobs which drastically reduces your lifesteal
5. Useless in pvp
6. Cost more then 4m..


Other than the defensive stats, I think I went over most of these. The loss of defensive stats is significant. I'd hope to make them back on the Ice Climbers which (ignoring the cold reduction and melee reduction of the boots) have 7 useful affixes to Nat's 5. At the very least, I'd hope to make them back on my gear with the 75M I made switching from Nats to SoJ, and additional money I make selling my Nats. (I could get non-Nats boots with Vit AND resist, for example).

As for PvP, I'm assuming that Players are considered elite. I know I am. Otherwise, SoJ becomes a rather expensive virtual paperweight.

I honestly don't know how bad the elite vs trash trade-off is. At the very least, though, I think you'd agree that SoJ is probably the way to go when you are facing off against the ubers.
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12/05/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Nameless
I think that the only way that the Nats set is really worth it is if you get the ring with ChC, which I anticipate would cost an arm and a leg (gold I am not even close to having). Without it, I would think you can get an equivalent rare with 6% ChC (only losing out on 1% ChC) with a decent pair of rare boots that will give you the MS, and all the other good stuff for a fraction of the price. I might be wrong on this, as I haven't taken a close look for this stuff in AH.


I'm not sure. When I checked the market, at the time, I couldn't get an equivalent set of stats on my boots and ring (including the set bonus) for less than the money I spent on them combined (about 30M, I think). Rares have come down in price so much lately that this might be no longer true, though.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 12/5/2012 6:52 PM PST
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12/05/2012 06:42 PMPosted by DictatoHead
why not use both?

Obviously because the next hellfire ring I roll will be a trifecta.
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Monks are just too crit reliant IMO to drop any CC, let alone 7 CC. If you have a SOJ, I'm more then happy to record a video and see the comparison between the two when tanking mp10 ghom...

I guess we just have difference preferences when it comes to gear but there is a reason why every endgamer picks a nats set > soj..
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Monks are just too crit reliant IMO to drop any CC, let alone 7 CC. If you have a SOJ, I'm more then happy to record a video and see the comparison between the two when tanking mp10 ghom...

I guess we just have difference preferences when it comes to gear but there is a reason why every endgamer picks a nats set > soj..


Sorry for the newb question but if I were to go for Nat's ring/boots what stats are critical to look for? I'm brand new to the game and would like to gain a bit of dps without losing my survivability.
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