Diablo® III

Questions / Answers about Reflect Damage

Thanks Vrkhyz, after reading your post, I admit my first statement in my previous post was incorrect.

Realised that as long as LS is the only life sustainment, required % life steal is based on only mitigation. I am now really curious of that... anyone can plot life steal % against mitigation % graph? =p
Edited by sayuu#1805 on 12/5/2012 10:30 PM PST
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All damage done is reflected back, SSS does not get reflected back because you are invulnerable when the skill is executed. WoL/SW/EP will all hit you. I stopped using a WKL because it was boosting my dps to a point where it was outpacing my sustain and defenses, specifically because of the boost in DPS to SW Cyclone. I tried submission on a RD mob awhile ago and it did reflect, I am not sure if it has changed over patches.

Diablowiki says 20%, but I have read elsewhere with a calculation that it is 10%, can't find the post anymore though.

The damage type is physical, I believe this to be for any type of damage that is given to the mob. So if you do cold damage it will be returned as physical. However, I have not noticed any effects being reflected such as the frost effect that sayuu mentioned, maybe it's just a bug with the SoJ?

@Piffle, RD hurts more on certain packs because I believe that RD is the amount of damage that the mob takes after it goes through armor etc. Different mobs have different armor amounts and such so it will change accordingly. Also, I have noticed that move speed seems to have an effect on the RD as well. For example, a mob with fast, atleast to me, causes me to take way more dmg then if it were to have Arcane Sentry in place of fast. I have noticed this with other affixes such as Electrified and Molten.
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@_@

Too much methematics, not enough understanding. -_-
Misinformation being passed around, that's why ppl keep getting confused, it's a conspiracy!

The Sith will attempt to clear this in the simplest term possible.

- What gets reflect to you?
---> Everything.

- Is there an attack that doesn't reflect damage?
---> 7 sided strike, BECAUSE it grants invulnerability.
Also see Serenity Instant Karma.

- what is the percentage of damage reflected.
---> twenty percent.

- what type of damage is Reflect Damage.
---> HOLY.

- why is it Holy? I thought it was Physical...
---> you ever looked at your body when taking RD?
now stand on desecrator, it's physical, do you glow?!

Holy element is the concept of Retribution, it is in the mantra, and in Reflect Damage.
RD is the only Holy monster-affix in the game.

- how come I sometimes see other elements being reflected?
---> whatever item you have that says "+% damage to (element)"
has a chance of reflect that damage at you.
see Stone of Jordan.
It is not constant, and the natural RD is still Holy. But once in a while you'll see yourself taking the damage of the element on the SoJ.
same applies to Won Khim Lau and Burning Axe of Sankis, you will sometimes see your body having lightning shocks on it. Using 2 +% damage items, seem to cancel each others out, and you take straight holy damage again.

- what is the break-even point of RD?
---> it is a mystery that cannot be solved. Dps is situational, not the stuff you see on the sheet. Sometimes at 70k dps, you won't break-even and take more damage, sometimes at 100k, you will.
Because it all depends on how often you crit, and how often you don't crit, how fast you attack, and what's attacking you. It is impossible to calculate the break-even point.
That's why math is useless in this game, that's why for 6 months, ppl still can't figure out RD.

- what's your break-even point?
---> to me,
100k dps, 500 LoH, 2.7 LS, 550 res, 5.5k armor. 2.0 ias.
breaks even on MP10.

- does Mantra of Conviction increase RD.
---> without lifesteal, Yes. with lifesteal, NO. When you have LS, it doesn't matter if you have MoC on or not. When you do more damage, you heal more, but more is also reflected.
So it ends up being the same thing like without MoC.

- so why do ppl die when casting Overawe?
---> because lifesteal is an after-heal, meaning it's coded to happen a split second after you deal the damage. So when you hit too hard and receive damage equal or higher than your health pool, you will die before you can heal. That's why more vitality is also a form of RD mitigation, because you can take more of it, and have more time to heal.
So is pickup radius and health-globe bonus.
Also when MoC is active, you take more damage before you heal, so you are vulnerable to other attacks around, thus losing further health when you're low on HP, to the point of death.

- is there a mantra of conviction rune that mitigates RD?
---> Reclamation.
(see the thread "The Anti-cookie-cutter")

- if LS is an after-heal? what's the during and before?
---> The during heal is LoH. The before heal, is Life regen.

- what amplifies RD?
---> Fast(on themselves), Illusionist(clones), and Health Link(damage connected).

- what's the defense against reflect damage?
have 900 LoH, 900 regen, and 2.9 LS, and you'll be immune to RD forever.
either that or get LS on both weaps, which is redundant.
Just don't cast faith in the light to buff sweeping wind, it is the culprit.
Use tactical retreats, kite, pick up globes, attack other enemies. USE THE FORCE, LUKE.
in other words, use your Skill.

the cookie cutter still fails, for every class.
Edited by LordRaahl#1733 on 12/6/2012 1:24 AM PST
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@LordRaahl,

Thanks for this information. Very concise and good explanations -- I really appreciate it. So if you don't mind... some one followup question:

If it is holy damage, then none of our resists work to mitigate that damage (we have arcane, lightning, physical, cold, poison, fire) - is that right? If so, does this mean that armor becomes more important to mitigate against incoming holy damage?

And that's also an interesting distinction between before-heal (LPS), during-heal (LoH) and after-heal (LS). I'm not sure if I'm all that ready to jump into the LoH game again, but I'm wondering whether high LpSS (since it's so cheap, and specific only to monk class) can also help,

And a followup anecdote. I was playing last night and revisited my old favourite skill - WoL. I dropped some bells on the RD packs while watching my health closely and noticed that it didn't seem to affect my health at the point of impact, which to me would mean that the RD and my defence/sustain (LS/LpSS) was effectively cancelling each other out. If this is the case, then it looks to me that any further incoming damage that any other monster does on me does not get mitigated nor sustained against, and that's probably why my health can drop so fast when facing RD monsters.

And if that is the case, then it would also seem to reason that casting MoC/Overawe would have no net effect on RD damage (as Raahl suggests) but I need to find more defence/sustain to keep my health up. I've also dropped pickup radius, which has helped me preserve the health globes so that when I kite, I can get a chunk of health back when I aim for health gloves while kiting.

Change of tactics (to attack anything but RD monsters as Raahl suggests) may be worth considering as well.

Anyway, thanks Raahl for the great information. I'm going to try different tactics when I have a chance tonight and over the weekend. I will revise my original post to reflect information that Raahl has provided so that this is more easily found for anyone searching.
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If it is holy damage, then none of our resists work to mitigate that damage (we have arcane, lightning, physical, cold, poison, fire) - is that right? If so, does this mean that armor becomes more important to mitigate against incoming holy damage?


Those are just the resists that spawn on gear... if you look at your details list you will see arcane listed as "arcane/holy" i believe. therefore arcane=holy as far as gearing is concerned.
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If it is holy damage, then none of our resists work to mitigate that damage (we have arcane, lightning, physical, cold, poison, fire) - is that right? If so, does this mean that armor becomes more important to mitigate against incoming holy damage?


Those are just the resists that spawn on gear... if you look at your details list you will see arcane listed as "arcane/holy" i believe. therefore arcane=holy as far as gearing is concerned.

Good stuff. Updated first post with information. :)
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Too much methematics, not enough understanding. -_-

...

- what is the break-even point of RD?
---> it is a mystery that cannot be solved. Dps is situational, not the stuff you see on the sheet. Sometimes at 70k dps, you won't break-even and take more damage, sometimes at 100k, you will.
Because it all depends on how often you crit, and how often you don't crit, how fast you attack, and what's attacking you. It is impossible to calculate the break-even point.
That's why math is useless in this game, that's why for 6 months, ppl still can't figure out RD.

- what's your break-even point?
---> to me,
100k dps, 500 LoH, 2.7 LS, 550 res, 5.5k armor. 2.0 ias.
breaks even on MP10.

I'm sorry, this is a fail on multiple points:
  • The break-even point isn't a mystery; it's a very simple formula.
  • The amount of damage reflected and life stolen stay in a ratio, no matter what multipliers you apply. Crits don't matter, Overawe doesn't matter, Conviction doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is whether you have enough life in your globe to absorb one-shot damage output, which depends on the most damage you could do in a single hit (including crits), your mitigation, and the number of mobs you're fighting, but ONLY if your claim that damage is reflected before LS is applied, which I've seen on other sites, is correct. (For the purpose of this post, I'll assume it's true.)
  • Your MP10 break-even point doesn't break even; it loses life over time. And probably a LOT of life.

Now, I'll address all of these in turn. First, the math behind the LS break-even point is very simple. We want to find the point at which the reflected damage equals the life returned via LS. Assuming we're playing on Inferno:
  • Reflected damage: Damage x 20% x (1 - mitigation from resistance) x (1 - mitigation from armor)
  • Life steal: Damage x LS% x 20% for Inferno

So we want to determine the point at which this:

0.2 x damage x (1 - RES) x (1 - ARM)

equals this:

Damage x LS% x 0.2

We can cancel out the common factors 0.2 and "damage," which leaves us here:

(1 - RES) x (1 - ARM) = LS%

If we're fighting level-63 mobs (which is almost always the case), it breaks down like this:

315 3,150
--------- x ----------- = LS%
RES + 315 ARM + 3,150

In Excel terms, you want this:

=992250/(RES+315)/(ARM+3150)
where RES is your resistance and ARM is your armor.

Don't believe me? Let's take a simple scenario: 80K damage, 525 RES, and 5250 ARM. What LS% do you need to cancel out the damage you deliver? According to the formula, it's this:

315 ÷ (525 + 315)
= 0.375
x 3150 ÷ (5250 +3150)
= 0.140625

So you need 14.0625% LS to break even with reflected damage. Let's test these numbers.

Reflected damage:

80,000 damage
x 20% reflection rate
= 16,000 damage
x 0.375 (damage after resistances)
= 6,000 damage
x 0.375 (damage after armor)
= 2,250 damage reflected

Life steal:

80,000 damage
x 14.0625% LS
= 11,250 life
x 20% (Inferno multiplier)
= 2,250 life stolen

They match. It's easy to calculate. It's not hard. And it's accurate.

Second, scaling doesn't affect the results at all—not crits, not tons of tornadoes, not Conviction, not Overawe, not anything.

"But, what about Conviction?"

Doesn't matter. If you boost the damage the mob takes by 12%, you'll get 12% extra reflected at you, but you'll heal 12% extra, too. As long as you have the required LS, the numbers will remain equal.

"But, what about Overawe?"

See above.

"But, what about FitL?"

See above.

"But, what about crits and spamming against a lot of targets?"

As long as you can absorb the most damage you can do at once, you'll be fine, and this is a problem only if order of application matches what was posted above and what I've seen on other sites (namely, that reflected damage is applied first, after which you leech). Note that I haven't tested this and don't know whether it works like this; I'm simply taking Raahl and these other sites at face value.

Let's say you deliver an 80K hit, you crit on it, and your CHD is +200%. This means that crits hit for 240K. Based on what we saw above, this crit will ding you for 2,250 x 3 = 6,750. As long as you have 6,750 life in your globe, this hit cannot kill you immediately, and you will steal back the same 6,750 unless something else hits you at the same time.

The amount of damage you do doesn't make a damn bit of difference once you've got the proper amount of life steal. The amount of non-RD damage you take does make a difference, though. This is easy to understand: if all your LS is helping you break even with RD, then you need life regeneration from other sources (LoH, LpS, and LpSS, plus potions and skills, which I'd consider subsets of LpS) to make up the damage you're taking from non-RD sources. But RD can't insta-smack you unless you deliver an ungodly amount of damage in one shot and can't handle it before the LS kicks in, assuming that the order of operations is correct.

Third, your MP10 example is flat-out insufficient. Here's what you posted:

100k dps, 500 LoH, 2.7 LS, 550 res, 5.5k armor. 2.0 ias

Here's your reflected damage per second:

100,000 damage
x 20% RD
= 20,000 damage reflected
x 315 / (550 + 315) <== mitigation from resistances
= 7,283 damage
x 3,150 / (5,500 + 3,150) <=== mitigation from armor
= 2,652 damage

Here's your LS sustain per second:

100,000 damage
x 2.7% life steal
= 2,700 damage
x 20% (Inferno multiplier)
= 540 life

And here's your LoH sustain per second:

2.0 attacks per second
x 4.3 / 3 (haste modifier)
= 2.87 APS
x 500 LoH
= 1,433.33 LPS
x 125% (Thunderclap single-target proc rate)
= 1,791.67 life

So your total sustain is this:

540 from LS
+ 1,792 from LoH
= 2,332 LpS

But your total reflected damage is 2,652. You're not keeping pace with RD; you're just pulling numbers out of a hat. Unless you have some other form of mitigation or have enough life to outlast the mob, you won't kill it before RD kills you.

Adding more mobs for Thunderclap won't work because TC's proc rate for secondary targets is lower than it is for the primary, which means you fall further behind with each nearby mob, as I explained earlier in this thread. Given that a 100K DPS is only on paper, and that LoH doesn't scale, delivering 500K real DPS in this situation makes it even worse:
  • Damage reflected: 13,261 per second
  • Life stolen: 2,700 per second
  • LoH returned: 1,792 per second (doesn't scale)

Good luck making up a running deficit of nearly 9K damage per second with 900 LPS on your gear. You're gonna need it.

"That's why math is useless in this game." Puh-lease. "Not enough understanding," indeed.
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Adding more mobs for Thunderclap won't work because TC's proc rate for secondary targets is lower than it is for the primary, which means you fall further behind with each nearby mob, as I explained earlier in this thread. Given that a 100K DPS is only on paper, and that LoH doesn't scale, delivering 500K real DPS in this situation makes it even worse:

* Damage reflected: 13,261 per second
* Life stolen: 2,700 per second
* LoH returned: 1,792 per second (doesn't scale)


Somethings not working here Vrk. I can say from personal experience that with roughly 125K buffed paper DPS (and much more than that on the SW). With 5.0% LS, 500 LoH, 500 Life per sec, I can tank RD no problems. I can stand in a desecration pit while doing it, if I'm not getting punched in the face as well.

I know I have higher resist than the example given, but it's something seems to be off. It would seem like you're saying that he would need over 10% LS to tank RD, but experience doesn't bear that out.

At a minimum I'd think you're missing the 30% damage reduction Monks get for free.

Is it also possible that some elites may also have some kind of mitigation which reduces the damage they take?
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I have done a very definitive test. All damage is reflected as phys. Of this i am 100% certain.

The dark side has clouded lord raahl's judgement, he has spoken before confirming anything.

The tests I did:

test 1: stand there in max arcane resist gear next to one reflect damage enemy and note how much damage mantra of conviction - submission is returning. switch to max phys resist gear, and note how the damage reflected to me is reduced by about 80%

test 2: bell a reflect damage enemy in max arcane resist gear a few times. switch to max phys resist gear, bell him a few more times and notice how the damage reflected to me is reduced by about 80%

in both tests I used a low dps, high vit, moderate resist setup so reflect damage would deal damage numbers greater than 10 (to ensure precision) per tick to me without killing me, and without me killing the one reflect monster i managed to isolate.

I made sure that the amount of arcane resist and armor in my arcane set was very close to the amount of phys resist and armor in my phys set
Edited by Seaboots#2209 on 12/6/2012 10:51 AM PST
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Wow. OKay, talking about being overwhelmed with knowledge!

I think that the precise problem here is that for most players, their ability to mitigate incoming damage (before any sustain is accessible) is what kills them. In that way, RD is a great mechanism to keep players honest in terms of keeping defence up with damage dealt and it rewards players who pay attention to defence when gearing up and punishes glass cannons hard.

So with that in mind, it would seem to say that buffing your damage in any form will put more pressure on your defence to mitigate the incoming damage and increase your reliance on sustain. I think that's what Raahl is getting at with FitL. The more damage you deal, the more defence you'd need. And any damage coming in that your defence is unable to absorb requires sustain to make up the small differences so that we can survive from serenity/heal to serenity/heal, be it in the form of LS, LpSS, LoH, LpS. health globes, potions etc.

I also don't think that Raahl is giving us numbers or suggestions in order to tank RD elites. He does mention in there that adapting your playstyle to work with what you are dealing with is important, not to mention situational awareness.

Vyrkhyz's mathematical illustrations are probably illustrating a good point if we were to be facing RD elites on their own. But typically, they are accompanied by a lot of other things -- combination of damage types, minions, other surrounding monsters with ranged attacks, etc. I don't think those situations can be calculated with mathematics and requires a certain feel for the game. Knowing how to use serenity, which monsters to go after first, how to get life back mid-battle (potions or globes), how to time cool-downs, how to kite... all of these are skills that are situational that may put some limitations on math.

So don't get me wrong... I love the math and think it's super userful. But I don't think that it is a substitute for feel and situational awareness; nor do I think feel and situational awareness is a substitute for math. In other words... can't we all just get along? :)

(PS. I think I agree with Demiwraith -- Vrkhyz, are you applying the 30% damage reduction that monks & barbs get for playing a melee class?)
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I have done a very definitive test. All damage is reflected as phys. Of this i am 100% certain.

The dark side has clouded lord raahl's judgement, he has spoken before confirming anything.

The tests I did:

test 1: stand there in max arcane resist gear next to one reflect damage enemy and note how much damage mantra of conviction - submission is returning. switch to max phys resist gear, and note how the damage reflected to me is reduced by about 80%

test 2: bell a reflect damage enemy in max arcane resist gear a few times. switch to max phys resist gear, bell him a few more times and notice how the damage reflected to me is reduced by about 80%

in both tests I used a low dps, high vit, moderate resist setup so reflect damage would deal damage numbers greater than 10 (to ensure precision) per tick to me without killing me, and without me killing the one reflect monster i managed to isolate.

I made sure that the amount of arcane resist and armor in my arcane set was very close to the amount of phys resist and armor in my phys set

Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner! Hooray for empirical testing!

(note that in both of those tests, the damage dealt appears to be holy, and the damage returned appears to be physical).

Now... followup question. Would this mean, in theory, that physical resist should be one of the more valuable forms of resist in order to mitigate against RD monsters? This could be especially important for those monks who have decided to go OWE free.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/6/2012 11:11 AM PST
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The type of damage reflected is the type of damage you are dealing.

If you equip a cold% SOJ and use an elemental neutral skill like tempest rush: tailwind on a reflect mob you will get chilled, same with deadly reach: foresight.
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The type of damage reflected is the type of damage you are dealing.

If you equip a cold% SOJ and use an elemental neutral skill like tempest rush: tailwind on a reflect mob you will get chilled, same with deadly reach: foresight.

This is what Raahl wrote about this in an earlier post:
---> whatever item you have that says "+% damage to (element)"
has a chance of reflect that damage at you.

I'm going on the assumption that he is right, but honestly, who knows. RD seems to be such a complex beast.
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Those who asked about the 30% melee reduction are correct: I didn't account for it. Silly me! I've forgotten it's there, honestly. I shudder to think how we'd do without it *brr*.

That said, unless you're farming/slumming on an MP level far lower than what you can actually handle, you'll eventually reach a point in combat where all the white mobs are dead. If you're willing to tank elites to whites to take advantage of LS, that's fine; it might work for you. If you're trying to get by on Raahl's ballpark MP10 figures with a real DPS of 500K or thereabouts, you're going to lose about 5K per second:

13,261 damage reflected per second x 0.7 (melee class bonus)
= 9,283 damage per second
- 2,700 per second from LS
= 6,583 damage per second
- 1,792 per second from LoH
= 4,791

Unless you've got sufficient LPS gear or can kite the mobs (combines with LPS gear and the factors listed below) or can kill them before they kill you (Overawe approach), you will lose 4,800 life per second until your life globe expires. If your only sustain is combat-related, you're SOL the moment you can no longer engage.

Potions will help, globes will help, other skills will help. But potions and skills can be flat-out transformed as LpS:
  • Potion: 12,500 life every 30 seconds = an effective 4167 LpS
  • Blazing Wrath: 6,822 average life every 15 seconds = an effective 455 LpS

I'm sure you could make similar calculations for health globes based on drop rates and such, but the variance of those items is very high.

All that said, I agree that playing skill and a feel for the game are very, very important. They don't trump the math, however—they illustrate the numbers behind the situation you see on the screen, which is little more than a series of numbers flying around and doing various things depending on what you're doing in response to the mobs. In the end, effective sustain is much, much more important than effective life, but I'm saving that and some other related topics for another big post.

Anyway, we all know that Lord Raahl has a strange love/hate relationship with the numbers in this game—he knows them well enough, he just dislikes using them as much as I do :) That's my understanding, anyway. No harm done, I'm sure.
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12/06/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
In the end, effective sustain is much, much more important than effective life,

I'm not sure if I buy into this statement. I think that statement is only true once you've built up your effective life to a point that it is no longer economically feasible to build on it more at the expense of something else. When improvement to EHP costs more than sustain, it's time to focus on sustain, I believe.

For me, I would always want to ensure that my effective life (EHP) is sufficiently high enough to withstand big incoming damage (to prevent huge damage spikes since those are hard to recover from and means that being one or two shot is imminent). After that, I'd focus on improving sustain.

But I would never advocate for anyone to focus all efforts on sustain without giving proper attention to defence / mitigation. That's my 2 cents anyway.
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(PS. I think I agree with Demiwraith -- Vrkhyz, are you applying the 30% damage reduction that monks & barbs get for playing a melee class?)

Even with this number added in, his point remains - the ratio is the same. The actual breakeven point in his example might change, but his overarching point remains.

One thing I thought was interesting though, is that even though the numbers increase at the same ratio, if there is a gap between the amount of damage you're taking and healing, that gap increases as your damage rises (I guess because 12% of a larger number is a larger number?).

So, for example, using his formula (and adding the 1-.3 for monk), with generic setup of 100k dps, 6% LS, 35k health, 5k armor, 700 resist ...

At 100k you're taking 5923 dmg and healing 1200.
At 148k you're taking 8766 dmg and healing 1776.

The ratio of damage to heal stays the same, and both the incoming damage and the heal increase by the same amount (48%). But at 100k, you're losing 4723 health a second and at 148k you're losing 6990 health a second.

So I guess if you can't handle the incoming damage from RD in the first place, using damage buffs is a bad idea!

**Someone should check my math cause I'm no Vrk :P
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Sheesh, I sound like such a grump after 5 hours of sleep. In my defense, I had my first exposure to Windows 8 in the office today, so I'm a "WTF R U SRS?" kind of mood. Apologies all around :)

@Nameless: You're spot-on that EL is very important for avoiding a big chunk of incoming damage. Usually, that's one-shot damage, such as Pain Mongers, Shatterbone (the giant PM at the gates of Alcarnus), Mallet Lords, Belial's big fist attack, etc. Assuming you can handle that, however, the value of two sets of gear with different resistances will, over time, approach the effective sustain numbers for those sets, not the base effective life. It's very easy to overwhelm seemingly large difference in "at rest" effective life, given the scale. For example, my effective life, including dodge, is somewhere near 850K. But my effective sustain from all sources (I don't have LS) is roughly 140K. So comparing an 850K "baseline" set with an 800K set might lead you to believe that the first is better. If the mitigation and LPS equivalents are such that you're also comparing 120K sustain per second to 160K sustain per second, it's not—it's inferior, assuming both are capable of handling the biggest damage spike you're likely to see.

Regarding formulas, can anyone verify that some mobs actually have armor/mitigation? I'm not seeing anything online that suggests it. Regardless, the formula for LS to cancel RD is here, including mob armor (if it exists) and the 30% melee reduction:

LS = (1 - mob armor) x 0.7 x (1 - resistance mitigation) x (1 - armor mitigation)

In the example I used earlier, assumign the mob has no armor, the required sustain is 14.0625% x 0.7 = 9.84375%. So you need around 9.9% LS to counter RD with those resistances.
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You're spot-on that EL is very important for avoiding a big chunk of incoming damage. Usually, that's one-shot damage, such as Pain Mongers, Shatterbone (the giant PM at the gates of Alcarnus), Mallet Lords, Belial's big fist attack, etc. Assuming you can handle that, however, the value of two sets of gear with different resistances will, over time, approach the effective sustain numbers for those sets, not the base effective life. It's very easy to overwhelm seemingly large difference in "at rest" effective life, given the scale.

I think we are on the same page with this one (and I just highlight the one statement here) and I think we are both going on about the same point. EL (or EHP) needs to be at some kind of base before sustain can actually be effective. Once you achieve that base, we concentrate on building on various forms of sustain (while taking advantage of any opportunity to improve our damage mitigation and EL)

In other words, before you get to that minimum base non-dodge EL/EHP (I typically state 400K EHP, but I'm liking 500K EHP a lot more these days), primary focus needs to be on defence/mitigation. Beyond that, gold is probably better used looking at different forms of sustain. And which one you use depends on playstyle. Personally, I'm leaning towards a combination of LS and LpSS but, really, it is a question of playstyle.

I just wanted to tease out that one point in an earlier post to ensure that we put parameters on the general statement that you made. But with that, I think we can say that we agree on the merits and roles of both (defence & sustain).

[and by the way, I would not refer to dodge in EL/EHP discussions. Dodge is such an all-or-nothing stat (in that once you are hit hard, you can die easily if you don't have good mitigation but high on dodge), and it does not apply to all forms of incoming damage (like ground effects). It's far more prudent to use the more conservative estimate of EHP - which is the dodge-free variety and treat dodge as a bonus form of EL]
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/6/2012 12:26 PM PST
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Regarding formulas, can anyone verify that some mobs actually have armor/mitigation? I'm not seeing anything online that suggests it. Regardless, the formula for LS to cancel RD is here, including mob armor (if it exists) and the 30% melee reduction:

LS = (1 - mob armor) x 0.7 x (1 - resistance mitigation) x (1 - armor mitigation)

In the example I used earlier, assumign the mob has no armor, the required sustain is 14.0625% x 0.7 = 9.84375%. So you need around 9.9% LS to counter RD with those resistances.


It's this last bit (the 9.9%) that "felt" wrong to me. I find that 5% LS is plenty to counteract RD in practice. It makes me assume that either:

1. RD is less than 20%
2. Enemies have armor.

Someone mentioned skeleton archers as having worse RD, and I tend to think of those elites as being the easiest to kill. I always thought they had less HP, but maybe they just have less armor.

Other than that, I'd definitely like to echo the thought that effective sustain is more important than effective life for PvE. PvP might be a different story, but once you have enough EHP handle the damage spikes, effective sustain is much more important.

I tend to over favor effective sustain, even to the point of cutting DPS. Effective sustain is really the concept I built my Monk around. After all, no amount of life will allow me to stand in 3 desecration pits.
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