Diablo® III

[Request] Combined Community Monk Patch Note

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btw, it's interesting how ppl stalk me from thread-to-thread,
focusing on meee, instead of whatever happens in the thread, haha.
Surely I don't deserve that much attention, do I.
calm yourselves, I'm not quite celebrity yet.



anyone who talks about themselves as the awesomest awesome who ever awesomed is setting themselves up for this...
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I think you might be smart enough to answer your own question, or are you? :)

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btw, it's interesting how ppl stalk me from thread-to-thread,
focusing on meee, instead of whatever happens in the thread, haha.
Surely I don't deserve that much attention, do I.
calm yourselves, I'm not quite celebrity yet.

edit @ your edit :
- Conflict is a natural state of man,
and is the principle of change that lies within the art of war.

I guess reading isn't one of your skills. Stalking has nothing to do with what my post contained. All I said was my opinion on this thread. It has nothing to do with the name of the thread's creator (you) in the slightest.

In other words, if any of the other frequent posters on the Monk forums here had mad this post I would've said the exact same thing.

Its not my fault you think everything anybody ever says about anything, is about you. Sorry bud, but its not.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 12/7/2012 7:49 AM PST
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KamelJabber :
and remove the following, it's just silly:


Posted by LordRaahl
holding shift and holding mouse click, now allows you to stand still and attack without teleport.


This isnt silly at all! Its actually a very nice improvement to the thunderclap tactics cant you see?

Main problem of teleport is that given theres a pool of death and lazers in front and you want to stay right were you are, whilst still attacking whatever comes nearby, you cant do this well when the first strike comes ( and after the teleport you would have to get back where you were standing and repeat this in an annoying fashion).

Shift affecting this means you will teleport when you want to, and you can hold your ground when you want to.

Its very simple and a very good idea.

And again.

To the negative ones, why dont you share why this isnt your opinion? on what it diverges exactly ? what do you suggest to fix this? Is this truly your best attempt to help? I get that you disagree, but everyone that does this just generalize blatantly, thats why I proposed a simple structure to discuss things with order and on the best attempt to agree on something.

If we cant even agree on the simple things that we need, I guess we just dont deserve any buff at all. Or even worse lets just let Blizzard throw darts on what to do with us next.
Because we are too stupid to form a comunity among ourselves.


Blizzard will ultimately do what they want, but they already stated now and in the past that they like to hear the community to get an orientation on what things to look up into. Wheter its 1 or 100 depends on us and on how we develope a comunity sense and combined needs.

You arent helping much with that attitude to achieve this.

I wasnt invited to the poll or to the research either, but still I have something constructive to say about this, and I agree that we should look into build diversity.

Specially mobility and group play for me ( already stated my whole feedback pages ago)
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7321162450?page=5#92

Please try to be constructive, regardless on your differences, we must find and agreement or something, otherwise we dont deserve any opinion on this.

Im expecting more from the monk community..
Edited by Colt#2370 on 12/7/2012 9:51 AM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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This isnt silly at all! Its actually a very nice improvement to the thunderclap tactics cant you see?, main problem of teleport is that given theres a pool of death and lazers in front and you want to stay right were you are, whilst still attacking whatever comes nearby, you cant do this well when the first strike comes ( and after the teleport you would have to get back where you were standing and repeat this in an annoying fashion). Shift affecting this means you will teleport when you want to, and you can hold your ground when you want to.


Nope.

Teleporting "when you want to" is exactly how it works now.

If you hold shift you can teleport on command. If you took this away, you would always attempt to run to a given teleport spot instead of actually teleport at it unless you happened to be on the first hit of your rotation (less than 1/3rd chance due to it being the fastest animation) AND that target was in range.

All this change would do is remove another option for skillful play from the game.

You currently have to get good at targeting the ground when you don't want to teleport and targeting enemies when you want to stick to them. You also have the option of using the teleport (again with shift held) to blink out of jailer toward inanimate objects ... ect.

Note: with the "hold shift to teleport" method, you can also blink at objects that are well outside the range of teleport and move the full distance of your blink toward that object.
This function would be completely removed as there is absolutely no way to perform this action without shift+teleport.

Basically this "improvement" would turn monk play into: "am I on the first hit of my combo? if yes, teleport! if no, walk at mob or stand still.

Zero player choice 100% hoping my combo resets before jailer desc kills me.

Edit: you absolutely CAN stay where you are and hit whatever comes in front of you with Thunderclap in its current state. Simply hold shift and attack a point behind the monsters you are fighting and you won't blink forward.

No thank you.

Edit2:
Please try to be constructive, regardless on your differences, we must find and agreement or something, otherwise we dont deserve any opinion on this.

Im expecting more from the monk community..


My "constructive criticism" of the OP was met with "math is for losers."
Being as I have done basically nothing BUT be constructive on these forums for the last many many months ... I am going to go out on a limb and say that this thread is NOT the best place to be constructive.

If you really want to help, make a thread that doesn't insult anyone, then provide feedback when people challenge your points of view.

You seem to be a pretty good guy and I think you are just fighting the wrong battle here. There is NO reason to work so hard to create harmony in an environment (this thread) that, most likely, was made to be gigantic Troll to begin with.

Edit3: Just to be absolutely clear, if Raahl has made this exact same thread but opened it by saying:
"Hey guys, I have talked with a lot of monks and these following changes seem to be the consensus among them when it comes to what is needed for the class. What do you guys think?"
Then, when people freaked out about this change or that, he provided well thought out responses that reflected his own reasoning as well as the reasoning of the monks he talked to for the various changes.

Then we would not have had such a negative backlash.

-Druin, the happy monk
Edited by Druin#1518 on 12/7/2012 10:03 AM PST
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Note: with the "hold shift to teleport" method, you can also blink at objects that are well outside the range of teleport and move the full distance of your blink toward that object.
This function would be completely removed as there is absolutely no way to perform this action without shift+teleport.


I wasnt looking it like that, but I will test it out and trow some further feedback, thanks for pointing it out.

My "constructive criticism" of the OP was met with "math is for losers."
Being as I have done basically nothing BUT be constructive on these forums for the last many many months


Im sorry about how you feel about this, and the things said.

I still feel we can benefit a lot from each other opinions and as you pointed me, maybe proven correct or wrong without any further issues.

Thats what I was expecting here.
Edited by Colt#2370 on 12/7/2012 10:04 AM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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12/07/2012 09:58 AMPosted by Colt
I wasnt looking it like that, but I will test it out and trow some further feedback, thanks for pointing it out.


No problem, I honestly remember thinking for quite some time "my goodness I wish this skill would stand the $#!@ still when I hold shift!"

Then, at some point in my billions of hours farming that view changed to "omg! If I hold shift all the time I just blink EVERYWHERE! It's magical!!!"

Then finally it changed to "This is just another utility skill in my toolkit and I am sincerely glad to have the option to blink when I want to and not blink when I don't want to"

This progression, to me, implies that this skill is mechanically VERY well made.

Edit:
I still feel we can benefit a lot from each other opinions and as you pointed me, maybe proven correct or wrong without any further issues.

Thats what I was expecting here.


I completely understand this sentiment and I think you would do well to bail on this particular thread as I was sincerely trying to do before I saw your TC teleport post. ;)

I have had SO many constructive positive conversations with the Monk community on this forum, I can personally attest that, on a whole, it's a really good group.

That being said, as I pointed out, this thread started with what I consider to be a very "negative" attitude and that had/is still having the effect of spawning ever increasingly negative responses.
If I understand the concept correctly, I believe this is called a negative feedback loop.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 12/7/2012 10:14 AM PST
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@Druin

Thank you for taking the time and expressing things better, and more mild mannered than some of us.
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if you're going to nerf our most used (best) skills just to get them on par with other skills then you are effectively weakening the monk even more, not what I want (and doubt what most monks want) and are just trying to appease Blizzard's goal of adding build diversity, but we'll still be weaker than the other classes. don't nerf anything, buff the other skills instead.
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12/07/2012 12:11 PMPosted by BigTuna
if you're going to nerf our most used (best) skills just to get them on par with other skills then you are effectively weakening the monk even more, not what I want (and doubt what most monks want) and are just trying to appease Blizzard's goal of adding build diversity, but we'll still be weaker than the other classes. don't nerf anything, buff the other skills instead.

"More" is seldom equal to "best". If most monks use a specific set of skills that doesn't automatically turn them into the best, they're just the most commonly used (for any reason)
Asking just buffs and no nerfs is totally naive and unrealistic. Improving something in any class often comes along with a nerf (in the same patch or in a future one) The easiest way to level is going DOWN, not up. It's the standard's developers reaction in most games.

I agree that the way of introducing this topic might seem rough and hard to swallow for some people. However, deflecting the atention from the idea to the author is never the right path.

Before going on with all the rampage against OP and his idea, I invite everyone to give a chance to this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004037253?page=1. It's truly amusing and Enlightening in many aspects, especially in the incredible diversity of builds (even though the Guide is far from complete)
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I disagree with many of these proposed changes and also think some of the most pressing issues with the monk class are not being addressed here. I am also slightly offended by the fact that these suggestions are being presented as the community's opinion when there is no evidence for that being the case.

No offense Raahl, I do enjoy your posts here on the forums and appreciate your effort, but I do not really agree with your opinions, especially in this thread. Please note that this post is intended to be constructive though and not in a negative mood. :) However I've seen you often point out that you enjoy corky and different builds and long synergistic, lore-accurate fights and don't care about efficiency. I suspect a large portion of monks disagree with this :/

The resource generation systems needs to be revamped, changes like these will NOT make people start to use anything but the cookie cutter due to the lack of spirit to use any other skills in an effective manor. Changes like lowering the spirit cost of bells from 75 to 70 hardly does anything. The changes would probably have to be more in line with lowering costs to 50, adding a small base spirit regen, increasing max spirit and changing spirit on crit abilities so it's not tied to a specific generator rune (I don't know the exact numbers here but the changes need to be big). There is a huge difference between a skill "working" and it being effective. Yes you can kill things with spirit spenders, but right now it's simply far more effective to pick up a utility skill to boost your main attacks.

The biggest issue IMO though, is that right now the only way a monk can get even close to what a barb can do is to use the sweeping wind damage lock mechanism, which in some aspects is insanely OP if abused (I can get cyclone crits for 450K). This should be changed so that SW damage is based on the gear you are currently using, and possibly only the buffs you currently have active. But other very hearty buffs to the entire class are required to make up for it. Potentially this buff could partially be to simply raise the natural damage of sweeping winds itself.

Note that I have based my entire character around this locking mechanism and it will render hundreds of millions worth of items that I possess nearly useless and my character virtually unplayable until I get lifesteal on a weapon, yet I still think it should be changed. It's not right to base a class around broken mechanics.

Regarding OP, there are good changes in there, like adding the Implosion rune effect to Cyclone Strike as a whole. However, the general direction of these changes is not the direction the monk class wants to take if we seriously want a class that has more than 2 builds and can compete with the other classes in terms of effectiveness. As other have pointed out, nerfing cookie cutter is not the answer when it's the only thing that makes us viable.

Sorry for the long post and I hope I'm not being perceived as rude here, just trying to voice my opinions. I would very much like to participate in the discussion regarding the future of the monk in a constructive manner :)

PS. One specific skill change I think is needed is this: Tempest Rush spirit cost should not scale with attack speed, this function heavily limits build diversity. Whirlwhind got changed, why shouldn't TR?
Edited by Timmy#1457 on 12/7/2012 6:48 PM PST
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If holding Shift would prevent you from teleporting the entire skill would be garbage.
It's a TELEPORT skill so you can TELEPORT, key word being TELEPORT.
If you DON'T want to TELEPORT don't click on the enemy that is in the molten or arcane. Why in the world would you attack a mob in the middle of a death pool???? You can easily attack the mob coming near you by simply click on the ground next to you....

Do I need to make a video on how to use this w/o teleporting to the target???

p.s. sorry for being overly passionate, but I love the TC skill and the teleport mechanism, this change would totally break my gameplay style and that would bum me out

EDIT: an awesome change would be to make you be able to teleport a further distance or across 2 levels or over holes in the ground and over other game obstacles (carts, barrels, etc)
Edited by KamelJabber#1103 on 12/8/2012 5:43 PM PST
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not really,
the change would allow you to stand your ground and use strategic tactics
rather than jumping into monsters.
With this change you would still be able to teleport if you just click,
it prevents players from getting lazy and just hold down the mouse.

As of right now, the way to not teleport is you have to keep the mouse hover right on yourself, which is tactically non-fluent and limits your combat freedom, according to the research.

hey, I didn't make these own suggestions, I simply took notes from the interviews and compiled the ideas.

------------------

p.s. at p.s.
why apologize for being passionate? haha.
make no excuses for your desires.

edit at edit
no, longer teleport would be overkill and greedy,
there's already dashing strike for far range movement.
Edited by LordRaahl#1733 on 12/8/2012 5:56 PM PST
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Notice : Visionary PatchNote was received as of 12/7/12, and thus forwarded to developers. Thank you sirs for your cooperation. ;)
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I would personally like to see snapping removed from sweeping wind as well, possibly just update it everytime you refresh the stack (hit a target). I have dreamed of liberating myself from sweeping wind so long that i sometimes think the time has already come :/
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I do not care if monks face 1-2+ patches, lasting for months, where we are underpowered while the internal balance among our skills is fixed. I just want to enjoy my monk. Monks be patient, or reroll. Monk class is not faceroll, if you want that go barb, that is how the lore class should match the player. Monk is mastery, and mastery takes time.

Diablo is still young, never forget that, we should not try to attain perfect balance among classes yet, that is a goal of the future. When the balance between our skills is so that the wide variety of skills are on par, only then can you boost a class to match other classes in terms of paper statistical performance.

First comes balance among our skills, then comes scaling to match other classes. Not the other way around. The human mind and mass channeling of feedback will lead the balance among skills to be ignored(in part), so long as we have a few builds that are competitive with other classes. This is why the shepard must not be told how to lead by the sheep, for they know not what is best for them.

If you compare yourself to others from the start, and let your fun be dictated by them, then you define yourself by them and/or their class and not your own.

We are monks, we must first have the best class of all (for fun = diversity, balance among skills etc.), then we must boost/nerf across the board till we are on level with other classes in terms of farmspeed/survival and the like.

Most would want more short term power to the class, and are afraid to lose cookie cutter ability. Let go, that is the teaching of the monk, let go. If you cannot let go, go barb, that is the faceroll class you seek.

EDIT:

Lately there has been an increase in gaming materialism. More and more are defining their fun by how they statistically compare themselves to others, and not the actual fun they are having while playing.

Many people, even the good Druin, has fallen into this trap, and in lack of understanding has forgotten that concept comes before mathematical balance. I see it leading to the argument: If ideas are not based on mathematical deduction, they are inferior to those who are solely concerned with the balance of numbers.

I repeat, before the number balance comes the concept, and thereby the lore of the class. The mathematics of great ideas that stand the test of time are most often slaves to the concept (you will find a positive relationship). That is, the numbers are adjusted to how things should logically be (common sense).

A simple example is that the single target ability does more dps on one target than the aoe ability does. This is so simple we all can agree to it, yet this very same principle is overlooked as soon as people can mix their own preconceptions into their posts, when it is no longer directly apparent.

EDIT: I think, also, that it would help these number players have more fun, if it was more attractive to farm higher MP levels. That would make fighting abilities more attractive over movement speed ones if one chose to.
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 12/9/2012 1:43 AM PST
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Well said, Master Nocturnal. ;)

"Gaming Materialism"

and so we shall coin that term, as what not to do
for the righteous ones who walk the path of purity,
untainted by human greed and mortal insecurity.
Edited by LordRaahl#1733 on 12/8/2012 8:27 PM PST
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We are monks after all! ;D
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12/08/2012 05:58 PMPosted by LordRaahl
Notice : Visionary PatchNote was received as of 12/7/12, and thus forwarded to developers. Thank you sirs for your cooperation. ;)


I'm sure Blizzard will accept this "Visionary PatchNote" you've compiled and take it seriously.

I mean, they have to.

Especially with all the great feedback you've received in this thread.

And with the numerous and detailed sources you've provided.

I can see the convo between Jay, Wyatt and the rest of the team as your "research" hits their desk:

JW: "Well, I know we have a team of the most talented and experienced designers, programmers, producers and testers working day and night on class balance right now. But guys, you just aren't going to BELIEVE this !@#$! Everyone stop what you're doing. There's this random dude on the forums who just submitted the "Visionary PatchNote" for the Monk and remedied ALL our damn problems! *shuffles through papers* He talked to... let's see here... "some guys in the EU"... and they just whipped this thing together I guess... without using any math or testing or whatever but... yeah... it's unbelievable how GREAT this is! *shuffles through papers* Why haven't we thought of any of this?"

WC: "Ok guys. You heard him. Monk... complete. New focus... Wizard."
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Bahhahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Jay Wilson: "now, hire more astrologers and feed them mad amounts of chemicals! we'll have this game complete by the end of the week!"
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One does not simply... fix this game without numerology.
One does not simply, read JacksonMack's sarcasm without using
MrMojocryin's suggested chemicals, while reading his horoscopes at the same time.

tck tck tck,
your lack of intelligent insults, disappoints me. ;)
Edited by LordRaahl#1733 on 12/9/2012 2:07 AM PST
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that's right guys: the key to computer games isn't mathematics. it's numerology.

no, seriously, what Jackson wrote was hilarious.
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