Diablo® III

What MP level do you think I can handle?

Given my profile and my gear (all self-found, no AH), what MP level do you think I could jump to and handle? By "handle," I mean that the point at which I'm dying every second or third pack is more than I can handle.

Thanks.
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So you want to stay up at all costs, even if you take 20 mins to kill anything?

At 30k dps I'd say stick with MP0, but your EHP is decent @ 577k - so if you could drop your vit, increase your res and maintain 500-550 ehp while reduce your actual hp by 15 or 20%, you could go for pure APS\LPSS and basically become invulnerable. But you'd need an oh with close to max LPSS and 750+ loh if you want to keep the Mempo instead of an LPSS inna hat.

Without changing a thing? I'm going to guess MP3 tops but mob uptime will be very long given your dmg output which of course makes staying alive harder.

Go max resist\armor low vit max LPSS\2.5+ aps? Tank anything forever.
Edited by simplemath#1821 on 12/6/2012 5:06 PM PST
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I didnt see the no ah part.

Grats on the purity angle, honestly I couldnt stick with it given the way the game is built for the ah. Serious props and good luck sir.
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I did some testing of what kind of gear could be bought at what prices, and what was the MP level such gear sets could play on. I think your gear set is similar to or superior to my MP-2 set.

With what I considered a MP-1 set (520AR / 4833Armor / 17K DPS) I did an Key warden and Ghom run without dying on MP-3. But it took a long time and I nearly died several times. This set is by far inferior to yours, but MP-3 still may not be your cup of tea. I don't think I could consistently beat Ghom with this set, and there are probably a few bosses that might be gear check fails.

For you, I'd play on MP-3 and see how it goes. Drop down to MP-2 if it's too much.
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@simplemath: Thanks. It's been tough many, many times, I'll tell you that.

Yeah, I mean without changing a thing, barring minor tweaks, I suppose, like, "Hey, I found a pair of bracers that keeps my effective life and mitigation the same but boosts my DPS by 1%." Major upgrades are out, and the build is solid; none of the skills are crazy. Pretty much what you see on my profile (plus the Enchantress) is what you get.

@Demiwraith: Thanks. Do you have a post with those gear sets? If not, you should make one.

Anybody else? C'mon, there are plenty of opinionated posters on these forums ;-)
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Put the stats and cost for the gear sets in Piffle's guide thread. Page 4:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7005435884?page=4

If you want to see pictures of the gear what I called the the MP1 and MP2 capable sets, they're in some old threads I titled "Dirt Cheap Monk":

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7006346587
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7118302005

You miliage may vary as to what you consider "capable" at a given MP level, but this was my experience.
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alright, it's not about your gear or what you can handle.
Your gear are fine for self-found if you're inclined on going that path.

if you want to push the MP envelope, you need to consider what build you will need to use.

here's a build I handcrafted to fit your current gear and stat, use it and you'll be able to do up to MP5. With a decent balance between dps and survival.

I called this, "Vrkhyz's Soliloquy"
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aVkYdS!UYX!aYYcbZ

Good luck.
Edited by LordRaahl#1733 on 12/6/2012 10:31 PM PST
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Thanks for the suggestion, Raahl. Off the top of your head, how far do you think I could push that envelope with this gear and this build?
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For the record, I literally just laughed out loud when I saw your Monk's name. My co-workers are wondering what's wrong with me.

Also, OMG you found that Shenlong's? I can't tell you how long I've been lusting after one of those and you found it?! I'm not giving you any advice now.

edit: Your crit chance is a little low for Cyclone I think? Your a numbers guy so you probably know better than I, but Bladestorm might be better?
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 12/7/2012 7:22 AM PST
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@Piffle: Yeah, I occasionally wag my finger at elites after I kill the last one in a tough fight ;-)

Regarding that Shenlong: Yep, I found it! Prior to 1.0.5, I think Kymbo's Gold (my amulet) was my only playable legendary. Since the patch, I've found that Shenlong, the Az'Turrasq, an Echoing Fury (currently in my stash), my INT-based Mempo, and the Vile Ward. And it's been in that order, too. Good times.

Regarding Cyclone vs. Blade Storm, if we could get everybody up to three stacks as soon as Sweeping Wind is up, we'd find that the break-even point for switching is around 7% CHC. It's really, really low—you're only trying to make up the 15% DPS-ish difference between the auras. So you're looking for the point at which this:

15% DPS

equals this:

DPS x CHC x proc rate x 20% damage per tornado x 6 tornadoes

Which, given a single-target proc rate of 125% for Thunderclap, is this:

DPS x CHC x 1.5

That looks like 10%, but Thunderclap's haste factor (roughly 1.5) makes it a lot closer to 7%. I'd call it 10% to be safe, accounting for the need to build up the stack twice (which isn't tough, even at 10%). The point is, no one needs 30% CHC to make Cyclone work; people just started saying it, and now it's accepted as true.

I don't need advice, I just need your best guestimate of how far I can push this gear and build! :)
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I know you're not looking for advice, but this is my take on SW runes:

SW hits many enemies. It also works when you're maneuvering, running, frozen, or not punching anyone. Cyclones hit max 6 time, single target, but sometimes wander off on their own. I remember that at about 20% Crit Chance cyclones seemed to be the better choice, just going by feel.

Also, as you note, it can take a while to get 3 stacks at 15% Crit Chance.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 12/7/2012 9:28 AM PST
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@Piffle: Yeah, I occasionally wag my finger at elites after I kill the last one in a tough fight ;-)

Regarding that Shenlong: Yep, I found it! Prior to 1.0.5, I think Kymbo's Gold (my amulet) was my only playable legendary. Since the patch, I've found that Shenlong, the Az'Turrasq, an Echoing Fury (currently in my stash), my INT-based Mempo, and the Vile Ward. And it's been in that order, too. Good times.

Regarding Cyclone vs. Blade Storm, if we could get everybody up to three stacks as soon as Sweeping Wind is up, we'd find that the break-even point for switching is around 7% CHC. It's really, really low—you're only trying to make up the 15% DPS-ish difference between the auras. So you're looking for the point at which this:

15% DPS

equals this:

DPS x CHC x proc rate x 20% damage per tornado x 6 tornadoes

Which, given a single-target proc rate of 125% for Thunderclap, is this:

DPS x CHC x 1.5

That looks like 10%, but Thunderclap's haste factor (roughly 1.5) makes it a lot closer to 7%. I'd call it 10% to be safe, accounting for the need to build up the stack twice (which isn't tough, even at 10%). The point is, no one needs 30% CHC to make Cyclone work; people just started saying it, and now it's accepted as true.

I don't need advice, I just need your best guestimate of how far I can push this gear and build! :)

Well as I said, you're the math guru so I'm sure you had considered it! =P

Your stats resemeble what I had prior to 1.04 though I had no sustain. I finished out Inferno, though it was a bit messy.

Given the nerfs to Inferno since then and your added sustain, I'd guess that you could easily handle MP 3 (might take you a little though) and maybe stretch it up to 5?

It's hard to say though, since I haven't played with stats like that in a very long time. So basically, I'm useless =D
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I know you're not looking for advice, but this is my take on SW runes:

SW hits many enemies. It also works when you're maneuvering, running, frozen, or not punching anyone. Cyclones hit max 6 time, single target, but sometimes wander off on their own. I remember that at about 20% Crit Chance cyclones seemed to be the better choice, just going by feel.

Also, as you note, it can take a while to get 3 stacks at 15% Crit Chance.

Good point about not spawning tornadoes when not attacking, as well as losing the occasional tornado, although their range is very long. I don't mind if they attack targets other than my primary; I'm happy when they do damage.

I used to think the same way regarding the full stack, which is why I used to stack Master of Wind (when my crit chance was very low) and snapshot myself at a very, very strong DPS for my monk at the time. But dual-wielders really don't need too long to get to three stacks. If we assume a pair of 1.40 AS weapons, the 15% IAS buff for dual-wielding, and a 1.5 haste modifier for Thunderclap, we can calculate the odds of not scoring a crit for each second of combat with a CHC of 15%:

1.40 attacks
x 1.15 (DW bonus)
= 1.61 attacks
x 1.5 (haste modifier)
= 2.415 attacks per second

We crit 15% of the time, so we don't crit 85% of the time. I could put together something really crazy that plots the odds of getting 2+ crits in 2 or more attacks, but I'll keep it simple. In the span of 2.5 seconds, we get roughly 6 attacks. Here's the odds of getting X number of crits in that time:

0: 85% ^ 6, or 37.7%
1: 85% ^ 5 x 15% x 6 (combinations), or 39.9%
2 or more: 1 minus both those chances, or 22.4%

So there's a 2-in-9 chance that we've got the required number of crits after 2.5 seconds of combat. We can look 2.5 seconds after that, using the same odds, to calculate the chances of having X number of stacks after 5 seconds:

0: 37.7% x 37.7%, or 14.2%
1: Zero on first times one on second, times two: 30.1%
2 or more: 55.7%

Keep in mind that Blade Storm uses the same crit chance, so we're really only looking at the following damage comparisons after activating the skill:
  • One stack: 5% DPS per second
  • Two stacks: 10% DPS per second
  • Three stacks: 15% DPS per second from the vortex against all that tornado damage

I think 15% is safely in the "Cyclone is better" camp for any player who isn't farming (i.e., isn't blowing through enemies no matter what). The longer a fight takes, the more time you'll spend at three stacks, which makes it especially value for tankers and players who play as high as they can handle. The longer the fights take, the lower you can push that CHC and still benefit from Cyclone. Those are good points you make, though.

Anyway, I didn't mean to make this about mechanics, but I did! :)
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I'm surprised you haven't tested your MP limits yet, given how much testing you do. But I'll offer my best guesses. Of course I have an advantage, since I'm also a self-found monk who's pretty close to your gear level.

White mobs: I'm guessing you could probably regularly kill white mobs at MP10. It's going to take you forever and a day, but if you wanted to play around up to rescuing Cain in Act 1, I'm guessing you could max out your MP and do so.

Elites: I sometimes key farm at MP4, and I consider that "very doable." It's not particularly efficient (I only do it when I get frustrated from bad RNG streaks at lower MP levels), but I can do it without a ridiculous number of deaths, so I suspect you could probably handle elites up to maybe MP6 before it essentially becomes a corpse pull.

Bosses: If you're asking the highest MP level where you could do a "full clear," which would include all of the enrage bosses, I'd guess you could maybe pull off MP5. Butcher and Belial would probably require some very good crit RNG, but I'd guess it's possible to beat them in your gear at MP5.

Ubers: MP2. I got absolutely squashed the one time I tried Ghom/Sharkface at MP3, and I personally find Siegebreaker/Kulle even harder. Since my squashing I've spent my time on both those fights at MP1, so I can't say with certainty that they're downable at MP2, but they're easy enough at 1 that I'd think you'd have a good chance at them at MP2. I suspect Skeleton King/Magda is doable at MP3.

Of course, all of these guesses are subject to a couple of caveats. First, spec is going to make a big difference. I play a couple of different specs for fun, and what's a piece of cake for one at MP3 might be total frustration for another at MP2. So if your spec works really well with your gear, you might do much better than I'd think.

The second caveat is obviously skill. You could well be much better than I am at the game (I'd be rather surprised if you were much worse), so you might make short work of things that make a corpse of me.

Finally, I might be way underestimating the jumps in difficulty beyond MP4. Sometimes small numbers make for big differences, so it's entirely possible the gap between MP4 and MP5 is much, much bigger than I think for our gear level.

I think I might just test some of this out this weekend. I've never tried anything higher than MP4, so maybe I'll take a swing at some of the higher levels, just to see if I can kill trash at 10, or take down an elite at 6.
Edited by overg#1771 on 12/7/2012 4:04 PM PST
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Well, see, I wasn't doing hat testing because I had planned to play from MP2 straight through to MP10 after I beat Inferno in 1.0.4. I had planned to replay acts and MP levels only if I didn't have the gear to progress, and I did that for The Butcher on MP4, although I eventually switched to just subbing in some boss-targeted gear.

But a funny thing happened after I killed Belial on MP4—I realized that MP4 was too easy. So I started jacking up the difficulty rather than continuing on MP4. And, umm . . . well, I need more data, but I'm currently collecting that data on MP7, and I think that might be juuust around the point where I start dying every two or three packs. Maybe "MP7.5" is where I'm finally gonna get beaten down. I need to get an uninterrupted run, though. I'm currently playing MP5, MP6, and MP7 piecemeal in Act 2. Certainly, different acts offer different challenges, but I picked Act 2 because I had just finished it on MP4, so it was fresh in my head as a point of comparison.

And so, umm, overg is probably closest, and his thought on bosses are probably very, very close to the truth. I had to switch to my Echoing Fury and some high-VIT, low-RES, high-DPS gear to take down Belial at MP4. But I used that same build.

Anyway! I'll be back to this thread in a day or two. Cheers :)
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MP5 results so far, Act 2:

I fought and killed the following elite packs without any deaths:
  • Sand Wasps with Plagued, Desecrator, Mortar, and Vortex
  • Sand Wasp Minions with Teleport, Extra Health, and Mortar; rare leader had Vortex as well
  • Unique Dervish Lord (The Bonetaker), pretty easy, straight face-tank
  • Swarm with Electrified, Fast, Teleport, and Jailer (notes say "Swarm," so I assume it was bugs rather than wasps, but I admit that I'm a little confused by that note)
  • Dust Imps with Desecrator, Frozen, Waller, and Health Link (I had a Frenzy shrine buff and a Fleeting Shrine buff)
  • Serpents with Extra Health, Froezen, Vortex, and Waller
  • Dust Imps with Vortex, Fast, Avenger, and Desecrator (I had a Protection Shrine buff)
  • Deceiver Minions with Knockback, Mortar, and Fast; rare leader had Waller as well (I had a Frenzy Shrine buff)
  • Lacuni Minions with Molten and Reflects Damage; rare leader had Horder and Jailer (this was the fight outside Alcarnus—if you climb the stairs and get the treasure, they will spawn up the stairs, which is where I attacked them)
  • Overseers with Vortex, Arcane Enchanted, Electrified, and Desecrator
  • Sand Wasps with Jailer, Extra Health, Plagued, and Reflects Damage
  • Shatterbone, the giant Pain Monger just outside Alcarnus (nearly one-shot me multiple times but couldn't quite do it)
  • Hellion Minions with Mortar, Molten, and Shielding; rare cultist leader had Jailer
  • Hellions with Desecreator, Electrified, Arcane Enchanted, and Jailer
  • Maghda

Not a lot of Molten, obviously. Each elite fight took about 1:30 to 1:45 of combat if I face-tanked the group. The more I had to run around, the longer each fight took, but I was never running for my life in any battle (just afraid of a bad shot against Shatterbone). I played around a bit in the Dahlgur Oasis, hence the serpents, before deciding to run it from the start through Maghda. With that done, I moved on to MP6.

MP6 results so far, Act 2:

I fought the following fourteen battles and died three times (italics indicates death in battle):
  • Sand Wasps with Extra Health, Electrified, Fast, and Mortar
  • Cave Wings with Reflects Damage, Electrified, Fire Chains, and Nightmarish (my strength failed, but I didn't die)
  • Vicious Ghouls with Electrified, Avenger, Nightmarish, and Fast (I had an Empowered Shrine buff)
  • Vicious Ghoul Minions with Arcane Enchanted and Reflects Damage; rare leader had Desecrator and Vortex
  • Cave Wings with Molten, Mortar, Health Link, and Knockback (I had an Empowered Shrine buff, but it ran out before the end of the fight)
  • Cave Wing Minions with Illusionist and Teleporter; rare leader had Waller and Jailer (I killed 97 enemies during this battle)
  • Lacuna Hunters with Fire Chains, Teleporter, Electrified, and Fast (awful battle because they kept teleporting around me with the FC in the small area outside Fuad the Cannibal's lair, which is where we fought the entire batttle)
  • Fallen with Fire Chains, Avenger, Electrified, and Frozen (I died after Tempest Rush rubber-banded me on the Fire Chains with a bomb under me; it exploded, I failed to dodge, and I died)
  • Fallen Minions with Arcane Enchanted, Fast, and Vampiric; rare leader had Desecrator
  • Fallen Overseers with Knockback, Electrified, Arcane Enchanted, and Health Link (this was my last fight before I went to bed, and I got lazy and tried to face-tank near the end of the fight rather than reposition myself; my reward was getting knocked back onto an arcane sentry with Serenity on cool-down)
  • Fallen with Nightmarish, Fast, Vampiric, and Teleporter
  • Fallen Overseers with Extra Health, Arcane, Plagued, and Molten (I walked away to fight some white mobs that had shown up and didn't see that I had walked myself onto an arcane sentry spawning point)
  • Fallen with Reflects Damage, Arcane Enchanted, Knockback, and Desecrator (I had buffs from an Empowered Shrine and a Frenzy Shrine)
  • Bonetaker (unique Dervish Lord, much harder hitting than MP5; I had to use defensive skills other than my mantra spam to handle him)

Most of the face-tank fights took me around 2:00. By way of comparison, the fight against the Overseers (third death) too 4.5 minutes because I was navigating sentries, molten trails, and plagued pools; the fight against the Fallen at the end of the list took 3:00 because I needed to reposition myself to avoid the sentries and the desecrator pools.

MP7 results so far, Act 2:

I've had five elite fights and one unique mob so far, and I've died twice.
  • Lacuni Huntresses with Vortex, Health Link, Electrified, and Teleport
  • Cave Wings with Mortar, Nightmarish, Waller, and Fire Chains (the Sorocco Caverns make getting walled in very easy, and there were four of them)
  • Ghouls with Reflects Damage, Jailer, Electrified, and Extra Health
  • Ghouls with Teleporter, Illusionist, Knockback, and Reflects Damage (killed 84 mobs during this fight, lined them up in a narrow passage for most of it and ripped off tornadoes)
  • Cave Wing Minions with Plagued, Arcane Enchanted, and Shielding; rare leader had Desecrator (I got too close to an arcane beam in a sea of plague)
  • Fuad the Cannibal (easy, face-tank)

The fights against the Huntresses and the first set of Ghouls took 3:00 each; the fight against the second set of Ghouls (80 illusions and 4 mobs) took 4:00. This sort of progression isn't unexpected because mob health is going up about 40% per level at this point. Battles are long, but they're intense and engaging.

More later.
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You know, I was surprised how high an MP you can do with your gear and then I remembered that monster damage scales much more slowly with MP than monster Life does. I guess it goes to show that after a certain amount of defense/sustain, all you really need is time more time to kill things in many cases, not necessarily DPS.

You may hit a soft DPS wall, though. At a certain point, LS starts to become much more effective on average than LoH, and increasing LoH becomes much less feasible than increasing DPS. At that point, you may find you need to wait until your DPS is MUCH higher in order to push through to a higher level of sustain.

Anyway, I'm impressed by your determination and results.

Good luck on high MP.
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Yep, the damage only goes up by ... well, I think the official page still shows 14% per level, but I recall that Blizzard dropped it to 9.6%. So the jump from MP4 to MP5 is 144% to 158%, and the jump to MP6 is 173%. MP7 is 190%, at which point it starts to get more difficult: the mob health is so high that something is bound to go wrong during the course of a long fight.

My gut feeling as I keep pushing this particular envelope is that the build is becoming less and less efficient. It's not really a protection issue—I've got decent mitigation and good sustain from multiple places—but I'm not making efficient use of my spirit. It becomes more and more bottle-necked. I think the way to relieve some pressure might be switching Transcendence to Beacon and Blazing Wrath to Blinding Flash, but I'll figure that out later. I've also considered swapping my socketed amethyst back to an emerald. I think I can comfortably do that on MP6, which I seem to be handling well enough at the moment.

Oh, regarding choice of SW rune, I forgot that Thunderclap's five attacks every three cycles means that it's very simple to build up to three stacks, even with low CHC. At 10%, you're getting five shots every three attacks against a single target, to say nothing of a horde of targets. If you're dual-wielding 1.40 APS weapons, you're really getting 4 chances to produce a crit every second. That gives you about a 35% to get a crit every second, assuming no other mobs are getting hit. But Thunderclap's third strike is very wide. I think a 10% CHC is safe enough to get off Blade Storm, however counter-intuitive it may seem at first glance.
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10
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@Chuvak: Ha! Nice one ;-)

More MP6 results:
  • Ekthul (unique bloated guy)
  • Shatterbone (tried with my normal gear, got one-shot; switched to my "beefy" belt, amulet, and bracers and tried to face-tank him as a test but got one-shot-bounced-to-death on a random hit; got him the third time, less face-tanking, just used TR to get to his other side during his wind-ups)
  • Hellions with Illusionist, Desecrator, Waller, and Electrified

It was on to Maghda after that, but I had only one stack, so I decided to go to Black Canyon Bridge for more elites. First, though, I swapped my amethyst for an emerald. That boosted my real DPS by over 11% in exchange for about a 15% drop in my sustain from all sources. Figured it was worth a try. Here's what happened:
  • Fallen Overseers with Avenger, Teleporter, Jailer, and Mortar
  • Fallen Overseer Minions with Fast, Vampiric, and Arcane Enchanted; rare leader had Desecrator
  • Falln with Molten, Arcane Enchanted, Mortar, and Avenger
  • Sand Wasps with Mortar, Arcane Enchanted, Waller, and Vortex
  • Ghezrim (unique Fire Guardian)
  • Maghda
  • Noxious Guardians with Mortar, Plagued, Knockback, and Reflects Damage (I had an Empowered Shrine buff, fight started just before the buff started and ended just after the buff did)
  • Goz'Turr the Torturer (holds Adria hostage)

No deaths. Felt a lot better—I actually got much more use out of Serenity, which had been languishing a bit on my toolbar due to my sustain. Against hordes of whites, I tend to yo-yo a bit, especially amid 50 serpents in Belial's court. But I generally mopped the floor with them a bit faster, and it allowed me to get in the face of the elites more, the Overseer Minions and the Molten Fallen being two very good examples.

Anyway, MP6 feels like a good place to be—tough fights, not running for my life the whole time, etc.—so I'm going to try to complete the act like this. I suspect I'll be unable to kill Belial before his enrage timer goes off, at which point I'll see whether I can pull the trick at MP5.
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